My Dogs Attacked Another Dog

[JustJamAA]

Hi,

Sorry long post, I'm pretty emotional.

Something awful happened today in the park. My 2 greyhounds (5yrs old, ex-racers, adopted) attacked another dog - a spaniel medium sized dog.

 

 

In the park was 4 adults and 6 dogs. Mine were both on the lead, 3 were off lead, another on a lead. These are dogs mine have met before.

 

 

 

 

My dogs have never done this before, or given me any reason to think they would do this. The only reason I keep them on lead is because they have no recall, they haven't shown any aggression like that before.

 

 

 

 

We approached the park and I waved to the group. I could see my dogs were excited, but they are often excited seeing other dogs.

 

 

 

 

I went over to the circle of adults to say hello. Dogs came over, lots of sniffing and general excitement. At one point, my male greyhound growled at one of the spaniels, but the spaniel ran off and I said to the group, 'think he's getting a bit overwhelmed, better head off' - it was chaotic - with dogs bouncing around everywhere. My dogs were getting bouncy and excited and possibly frustrated that they were on a lead, so I knew we couldn't stay.

 

 

 

 

The spaniel was yapping, a real high pitched bark. I said goodbye and was turning to leave (all the while I've still got my dogs on the lead) when ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. My male grey had got the yapping spaniel in its mouth and pinned to the floor. I didn't see exactly what had happened, it was just one minute I'm saying good bye, the next minute my dog has its mouth round this other dog and is shaking it. My other grey then went in. There were people, dogs, tangled leads, the spaniel was screaming, the other off lead dogs were trying to get involved and my dogs refusing to let go.

 

 

 

 

I literally pulled open my dogs mouth with my bare hands. He released and I dragged him back. The owner of the spaniel had my female grey by the back of her harness in the air.

 

 

 

 

Once untangled, I dragged them back from the other dogs, they were still pulling, whining, lunging but I was stood far enough back, as everyone tried to get their dogs back on their leads. I was saying, 'is your dog ok, is your dog ok' - while the owner and another lady was checking the dog over. The man shouted back, I think so, yes, doesn't seem to be any blood. She's ok. They just had her pinned. Then he said, she's a drama queen probably sounded worse than it was. He was being nice..... it was bad.

 

 

 

 

I said, do you want my number in case, he said, no it was ok - it's still frantic at this point, I'm still trying to restrain my dogs, still lots of barking and dogs pulling - as I see this guy quite a lot on walks, I said, 'ok let me know I've got to get them out of here'.

 

 

 

 

I marched them all the way home.

 

 

 

 

I've immediately called my vet, to tell them and to tell them to call me if a spaniel turns up. I also got a number of a behaviorist. I went through what happened with her, she's said - doesn't sound like they (my dogs) were scared, doesn't sound like they were playing - if they were shaking the dog - that's prey drive and it's dangerous and not an awful lot that can be done, she said it's easier to train fear aggressive dogs than dogs with a high prey drive, but there are some things we can do to lessen arousal. We're organizing an appointment to have her over.

 

 

 

 

I'm just in a state about it. How can I ever, ever trust them again? This has never happened before. They are always great with other dogs. I'm always telling people how friendly they are. They were playing with a Jack Russell puppy the other day. They'll always be muzzled from now on for the rest of their lives. I don't 100% know if the other dog was injured. I wish I'd stayed around to take his number, I just want to know she's ok properly. After he'd taken her home and fully inspected her.

 

 

 

 

I feel awful. I don't know what caused it, or where it came from or why. I can't even look at my dogs right now. I marched them home and put them in the kitchen. I let them out an hour ago in case they needed the toilet. I know they probably have no idea what they've done wrong but they attacked another dog, I can't very well bring them home, give them a treat and say goodboy like I normally would after a walk - so I put them where there beds are, made sure they have water, and closed the door, and other than letting them out for a pee, I've given them no interaction.

 

 

 

 

i just don't know where to go or what to do from here. I'm devastated and so ashamed about it. I love my dogs, but I cannot have this. If I was the owner of the Spaniel, I'd be calling the dog warden, which who knows he may get home and very well decide to do. I'd be furious if two dogs twice the size of mine grabbed my dog, pinned it down and started shaking it.

 

 

 

 

The only saving grace is they didn't appear to draw blood. There was no bite wound, who knows he might get home and discover something, but between him and the other lady, they couldn't see any marks on this dog.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a terrible thing to have happened and I just don’t understand why, or where we go. The trainer won’t be able to come for another couple of weeks.

 

 

 

 

What would you do in my shoes?

 

 

 

[NeylasMom]

First of all, take some deep breaths and let your dogs out of the kitchen. The only thing isolating them is going to accomplish is stressing them out and possibly damaging your relationship with them. As you noted, they in no way understand that as a consequence of something that happened hours ago. Also, they were just being dogs. The failure here was really yours. I don't say that to sound harsh, and I certainly don't think you intentionally put your dogs in a bad situation, but by having them on leash around loose dogs, that's what you did. It's just not fair or safe to have some dogs on leash while others or off because it doesn't give the leashed dogs the option to retreat if they don't like the interactions. In scary or unpleasant situations, dogs have three options - fight, flight, or freeze. If we remove flight, which having the dog on leash does, the dogs choices are then to just take it or to communicate in some way that the other dog needs to back off. And every dog has his limit if another dog is being rude, pushy, or impolite, and rightfully so.

 

No one here is going to be able to say what really happened, but I'm not sure from your description that this was purely predatory. You said that there was a lot of activity and dogs bouncing around and that your male gave an appropriate warning early on. And you made an astute observation that it was too much for your dogs and wanted to get them out of there. Unfortunately, I think it was too late. My guess is the spaniel made an attempt to interact again and this time, because the growling hadn't been effective your boy had to be firmer so he pinned the dog. If the dog then started screaming (especially if high pitched) and the other dogs started getting involved you now have a pack situation, which can easily turn into predatory behavior.

 

The simple solution to this is don't let your dogs interact with off leash dogs while they're on lead. And I would be very selective about leash greetings with other leashed dogs, if I did them at all. And clearly, no dog park. Pretty standard stuff. If you think the chance is high that you'll encounter an off leash little white fluffy on walks, then muzzle them so you feel better about it, but know that that puts your dogs at risk if an aggressive loose dog attacks them as they won't be able to defend themselves. Personally, I would just work with the behaviorist to change their response to other dogs - use classical conditioning so that their response is to look up at you at the sight of another animal and always have high value treats on your walks to be doing this training and don't stress too much about it.

Edited March 11, 2019 by NeylasMom

[greysmom]

First of all, give everyone some time to calm down. You are running on adrenaline right now and not thinking properly and calmly. Just sit down and breath.

 

Then...

 

Remember and think about the fact that your dogs didn't do anything "wrong." They were excited and aroused, and the spaniels were being spaniels and jumping around and probably jumping on your dogs (your male even tried to warn you and the other dogs by growling and neither of you listened), and a very natural thing happened. It's events exactly like this that are good examples of why greyhounds and dog parks don't mix well.

 

Everyone made mistakes and fortunately no one was seriously hurt. The spaniel owner should have put his dogs on the leash as soon as one of them was growled at - when it became apparent his dogs were too riled up to play nicely. And you should have left sooner. At the very least by the time your dog was aroused enough to growl. A that point you stop people socializing and get your dog out of there.

 

But...

 

Things don't often happen the perfect way. So, yes, check on the spaniel and pay for anything that's your fault. That's the responsible thing to do. And might stop a call to animal control by the other owner, particularly if you are acquainted.

 

Don't blame your dogs for reprimanding another rude dog. They will likely be perfectly fine around all manner of dogs in the future. Yes, high prey drive can be difficult to deal with, but it doesn't sound like your dogs have a super high prey drive - you would have known it way before now.

 

This incident is also a perfect example of pack mentality - one dog starts it and all the others jump right in. And also a perfect reason why small dogs and big dogs should never never never be allowed in the same off leash dog parks.

 

So... breathe. And hug your dogs. They didn't do anything wrong, and don't understand why you're angry with them.

[HeyRunDog]

Let your dogs out and give them a hug and have a heart to heart with them in a calm voice, they won't understand what you are saying but it will make you feel better, and if you feel better it will help you think straight and recover from the shock . They have no idea what they've done wrong and as has been mentioned you don't want to damage your relationship with them.

 

I'm not sure how it works where you are but I think I'm right in saying that in the UK it would be the spaniel owner who was at fault if his dog was off the lead i.e. not under control and as yours were they would be classed as under control.

[robinw]

Don't beat yourself up. I'm sure that reaction came with a reason that's obvious to dogs, but not us. Take a deep breath and avoid that spaniel.

[ramonaghan]

You've gotten some great advice from some very knowledgeable people already. I just wanted to say I understand how you feel and how fast it happens--my leashed hound broke an off-leash Maltese's leg once. It is a terrifying thing to witness and experience. You will recover; it just takes some time. Your dogs have likely already forgotten it. Be kind to them, and to yourself.

[JohnF]

Scary stuff, but you handled it well and with empathy. Hopefully you dodged the bullet this time and the other dog will recover; if you look at it any other way it will drive you nuts and into making random assumptions and decisions that benefit no-one. Resume your dogs' routines, they were just doing what dogs do in a pack when one steps out of line. Carry muzzles and put them on if you have to meet a group of people with out of control bouncy dogs. Avoid groups of out of control dogs at other times.

 

 

Dog laws in the UK are that they must be under effective control wherever people might be, even in your back yard if a delivery man comes along, even when they're on a lead they're not under control if they bite. So if a loose fluffy yapper runs up you can still be in trouble. Even if they trip or scare someone they can be classed 'a dangerous dog out of control' by a court. Horrible dog-phobic laws. But millions of us still manage to keep dogs and let them mix.

[Rickiesmom]

"So if a loose fluffy yapper runs up you can still be in trouble. " Our laws are very similar. Very one-sided.

[racindog]

Everything is OK-really. You had a learning experience but you have handled it splenditly and really, because your dogs are as wonderful as you believe them to be, no harm has come to anybody. First, dog parks sadly are an accident waiting to happen. Generally it is ill advised to do the dog park. 2nd muzzles are good! You know that now. It is no shame in a dog wearing a muzzle. One of the purposes of a muzzle is to protect the muzzled dog from being victimized by stupid unruly people and other animals. Sometimes people will see me with one of my muzzled dogs and ask 'will they bite?". I laugh and remind them that yes, ALL dogs bite hehe but that is not why I have them muzzled. They are muzzled to keep them from even giving the appearance of biting should they be confronted with any of the MANY MANY stupid things other people and their dogs can do to them. People will literally ALLOW their children to run up and jump on your dog from behind-screaming all the while- and think it is funny! When your dog, who thinks he is under attack, by he don't even know what, responds even with a defensive threat for protection it is guaranteed that it will be played up and construed to be Cujo aggression-even though its not true. Muzzles help prevent incidents and honestly all it means is that you intend to protect your dogs from the stupid stuff OTHERS can rain down upon them. And your hounds are fine. There is a huge difference between having high prey drive and being dog aggressive and also maintaining pack order. What happened was just TYPICAL dog behavior, especially for a greyhound. It does not mean that your dogs are aggressive. It does not mean that they are not trustworthy. All it means is that they are dogs and this is one of the ways dogs behave. (That is also one of the reasons that dog parks are dangerous.) I have saved the best for last. What you described should actually make you feel BETTER about your dogs! Now you know know that they are in fact SAFE, have excellent bite inhibition, and even when pushed over their bite threshhold they will not cause harm!!! As you have pointed out your dogs are LARGE. Trust me- if they had wanted to they could EASILY have done serious damage with one mere snap of their jaws. But they didn't! This is actually another great thing about greyhounds. Since they stay with their litter mates for so much longer than most other dogs they usually learn excellent bite inhibition-as your guy has demonstrated that he did- and excellent pack dynamics. I was an animal control officer in a large city at one time and saved many pets lives because their owners were unaware of this. Sometimes the families dog just couldn't take anymore from unruly kids and would "bite" the kid. When I responded, the entire family was usually devastated because they loved their dog and believed that now that he had bit a kid he would have to be euthanized. And the 'bite' was no more than a mere slight abrasion, barely breaking any skin. It was quite obvious the dog had exercised excellent bite inhibition and had not intended nor actually hurt the child. I told them that NOW they KNEW they had a safe dog that even when pushed to his bite threshold would not try to seriously injure the kid. They were so relieved to know that their dog was not some killer that had to be euthanized! Never once did we ever get a call back to any of these homes. I attribute this to the dogs' teaching the family how to behave appropriately hehe. Ian Dunbar has some excellent materials explaining this. So anyway this is your takeaway IMO. First you have GOOD SAFE DOGS that even when aggressed on and pushed over their threshold are not likely to try to harm the aggressor. Second, muzzles are greyt. Use them a lot so you can protect your dogs from being wrongly accused/labeled when stupid people and dogs put them in bad situations. Use them always because in these times dogs are often assumed to be guilty whether they have done anything wrong or not. Lastly think long and hard before taking the risk of putting your good guys in a dog park with the wild and crazy elements that are found there. Hug your dogs. Praise them for their excellent control. Many dogs are not like that. Many dogs would have seriously injured or killed the spaniel in a blood fest. I'll point out to you the same thing I have to so many others. Your dog has been pushed over his threshold and still, even though he bit, inflicted no serious harm. BTW when a dog intends harm in a bite it is obviously devastating. There is blood, torn flesh, incredible bruising from intense bite pressure etc. Holding another dog down on the ground without even breaking the skin does not qualify. And while you think you had to "pull" his jaws apart off the other dog let me assure you that you did not. He allowed you to do it which also speaks to his lack of intent to harm. You would not believe how tight they can clench those jaws if they want to! In fact even big strong professional trainers may have to use an instrument called a bite stick to make a dog release -and it only works because it uses the involuntary gag response. So your boy was actually submitting to you when he allowed you to open his mouth and extract the spaniel. And just so you know regarding muzzles. Greyhounds CAN kill prey and do damage pretty easy even when muzzled if they want to so you've still got to watch them. They usually mash it to death in such cases. They are hunters. It is genetic. It is just the way it is. But don't worry. All is well. You STILL have great dogs and you know it for a fact now because they have proven it. What you have gone through is just a learning experience that comes with the territory of loving 2 magnificent greyhounds. And BTW you passed the test with flying colors And kudos on having the foresight to keep yours leashed! It could have been a lot worse had they not been, just remember they are counting on YOU to protect THEM in such situations(also applies when they are muzzled). JMO.

Edited March 12, 2019 by racindog

[JustJamAA]

Thanks racindog - your post actually made me cry. I was doubting myself into thinking, maybe I'm not the right owner for them, but your post gave me a lift and a renewed boost in confidence seeing the positives that did come from the situation xx

 

Yesterday I went back today to see if I could find the owner of the spaniels, he wasn't there unfortunately, but a lady who was also there at the time, and saw it all unfold, she said she felt so sorry for me, there was a lot of support, and no one was blaming me for the incident. I was so grateful to hear that.

 

It wasn't actually a dog park, we don't really have them in the UK, it was just a normal park, like an open grassy field that we were walking through. Anyway, she did say the Spaniel was completely fine. He had no marks at all, and she walked off home. She said from her view, all the dogs rounded on that spaniel because of the noise she was making. Obviously i'm sure if I had a slow motion video I could see all the things that went wrong, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I wasn't prepared because they'd never given me reason to think they would do that - or so I had thought.....actually they gave me loads of signs but I misread them. She did say, it came out of nowhere, it was just a split second thing. So we all misinterpreted the signs.

 

Your right in that he did let me open his mouth and he didn't draw blood and that really is something. Still trust is broken with them around dogs, so they will always be wearing muzzles from now on.

 

I have learnt a couple of things. I have learnt my dogs won't bite me, even at a high arousal state. I know I need to somehow find them an opportunity to run free and burn off more energy - walks are just not cutting it, they want to run, they want to get to high speed's. My dogs aren't the lazy coach potatoes I'm seeing everywhere else. They sleep, and they love to lounge on the sofa when we're at home, but they are ready to go, they want to play, they are fit, they are eager and they are anything but lazy. They sleep the amount they need to - around 18/19hours a day but that still leaves 5-6 hours worth of energy to burn. They aren't lazy dogs. They're lazier than a border collie, but they aren't lazy. If that makes sense?

 

I also learnt, I won't judge people as harshly as I used to when I came across incidents where a dog bite. I am a sensible lady. My husband is sensible. We're responsible dog owners. Our dogs are loved and cared for. Over christmas with my nephews and nieces, we were beyond diligent. I've spent the last 6 months introducing them to little dogs, being in a home and living a pet life.

 

I came from a dog family, I grew up with dogs. I don't walk my dogs irresponsibly. But this still happened to me. It's so easy to judge people as a bystander, so easy to watch a youtube video and say - look at all those warning signs - the owner is an idiot. But those videos, they take out the human factor. Easy to assess a situation when you're not involved in it. They don't provide the watcher with the sensory overload that the human is going through as well. We can't see our dogs faces when we're walking them, and sometimes it's easy to confuse one signal for another. I confused prey drive with play, the excitement the posturing, the fact my dogs had been around these dogs before and all had been fine. I knew my dogs were getting excited and with that there was some frustration because they were on a lead. I knew that and I felt that, but I still confused the signs. I knew I couldn't stay because of that, but more because I was thinking - poor buggers, not fair they can't run. I was not thinking this is dangerous! Not anticipated how fast it could escalate. I went from 'I'm going to have to go, my dogs are getting a bit overly excited' - to my dog now has a spaniel in it's mouth - and that happened in an instant. So i had misread all the other signs while we were walking into that park and the worse sign that I missed, the calm fixed stare.

 

I read this article: http://greyhoundequality.org/care_article1.html

 

Due to the nature of prey drive and predatory aggression, signs may be misinterpreted as play. They include, but are not limited to:

• - Dog becoming excited & difficult to distract - I thought they needed more training
• - Shaking, trembling, fixed stare - I had confused with anxiety
• - May be unable to take their eyes off the small dog - i had confused with interest
• - Neck arched, tail up, stiff stance - thought this was excitement and being alert
• - Trying to encourage the small dog to move; the greyhound may be rough with the small dog e.g. placing a paw on it, bunting with its nose over the neck or abdomen
• - The dog may vocalise if it is thwarted from obtaining access to its intended target - I thought the whining was, 'I want to play'

Up until the behaviorist pointed out 'prey drive' as being the cause, I hadn't really explored that topic. Greyhounds will chase a squirrel and you won't be able to catch him, so keep him on a lead, was what I was told, so it's what I did. I read everything I could get my hands on about body language and none of the above came up until I googled, Understanding greyhound prey drive - which is a pretty specific search term. My searches before were - dog - body language, can you see what I mean? I just didn't know what I needed to know. Like a quiz show, it's easy when you know the answers.

 

Those points there should come as standard in a leaflet when you're adopting a greyhound. Had someone said to me, be careful when you see this sort of body language and don't necessarily confuse it with them being anxious or excited, from day one I would have been switched on to it.

 

Is that my fault? Yes and no. I did so much reading before we brought the dogs home, but I was reading stuff like 'the other end of the leash' and how to understand your dogs body language, and training positively. I wasn't willfully ignorant, I just hadn't come across probably the single most important points to look for as a greyhound owner, what prey drive looks like before the chase

 

I know now and I will be better prepared in the future. Yesterday on our walk I couldn't believe how many times they had locked eyes on a moving object ahead.

 

I'm really glad the spaniel appears to be uninjured, and this was the warning point for me to be switched on to the right body language in my dogs.

 

Thanks all for your responses. I have learnt a lot the last couple of days, luckily no one was injured, including myself. I realized when I stuck my hand in his mouth that I could well be bitten but actually I was more concerned for the spaniel than my own hand. It's testament to my grey's own temperament that they didn't and also a reflection of the respect and bond that exists between us.

 

I will work with the behaviorist because I need to be demonstrating that I'm taking this very very seriously. I think a key part of training might be 'watch me', where I can refocus their attention on to me before their arousal levels get too high.

[Hubcitypam]

Something very similar maybe somewhat in reverse. happened to us at the dog park years ago. There was an established group that sat in a huge circle every day and chatted. I got to know some of them, including a woman with two beautiful silken windhounds who were not involved in the situation that follows),.

One day Poodle and walked up to the circle of chairs and five dogs went into him and almost disemboweled him. None of them were large dog I tried to pull him up by his collar but it slipped off. I fell on him to protect him and was bitten many times, including several times in the face by Poodle. We both healed but that was our last visit to the dog park.

In my never ending quest to think like a dog my chain of thought is that somehow those dogs had known each other longer and had formed some sort of a pack as their owners also had. We had met all those dogs separately but when we walked to THEIR circle they attacked.

[Banjoman]

If your greyhounds are retired racers the high pitched barking of the spaniel would have been enough to arouse them. Have you ever been to a greyhound race meeting? The dogs in the traps are screaming with excitement as they hear the lure coming round the track.

 

I kept my Chancey muzzled for over two years before she calmed down enough for me to trust her around other dogs but even now I am very careful about letting her close to them, preferring to stand at the side of the path to let them pass by. There is one little terrier in my neighbourhood that is guaranteed to wind her up with it’s high pitched barking and the stupid owners still let it off the lead in our vicinity despite knowing what she is like. She had been quite good about it for a while but a few weeks ago it did just enough that she was trying to get to it again. Luckily I had both of mine on short leads and could walk them away.

 

Your dogs will be fine wearing muzzles, they were used to wearing them on turn outs at the kennels and on the race track. I bought a pink one for Chancey so that she didn’t look dangerous or menacing.

[racindog]

Wow! Just look at all you have learned! You are an experienced greyhound person now! I am glad my post brought you some comfort. The 'watch me' idea is gold! We call it 'engagement' here and it is one of the most important dog handling tools we have! You can actually train them to focus so totally on you that it can keep them from responding to distractions you don't want them to. I love 'focused heeling' as it is such a good example of it. https://youtu.be/YBUO9-et7YY Click on the link that comes up on the screen to view on YouTube.

Anyway glad things are looking up and all is well and happy as it should be. Sounds like you and your hounds have meshed into a fine team and are lucky to have each other Cheers!

Edited March 13, 2019 by racindog

[ZiggysMama]

Thank you ALL for your contributions to this forum. The exact same thing happened to me today with my grey at the dog park. A younger man with a beagle puppy turns her loose in the large dog side of the park, she immediately starts screaming in fright with all of the big dogs running up, and next thing I know, my retired racer has the puppy in its mouth and is shaking it. Everyone in the park starts screaming and trying to get the dogs to separate. I see a nightmare happening right in front of me - and MY dog is the lead villain! Once I get my hands on my dog’s collar, I clip on his lead and march him straight out of the park, a few paces behind the man walking out with his beagle tucked under his arm. I was so angry at my dog, mad at myself, and just devastated by what I had seen him do. Once I got my dog back into my car, I found the owner of the beagle, apologised profusely, gave him my number and told him to call me should he take his dog to the vet and I would pay the bill. (He later texted me with a sweet picture of his puppy, saying she was fine.) Yes, this is my first greyhound, and I regret putting him in a situation that triggered such a prey drive reaction. I did not having him muzzled -  I was lucky that my boy didn’t do more damage. So...three HUGE lessons learned through your forum: 1) it doesn’t have to be a squirrel or rabbit to trigger his prey drive; 2) keep my lovely grey muzzled; and 3) no more dog parks. I am so glad I found this forum! Thank you all!

[cleptogrey]

good for you contacting your vet re: the other dog! not too many people will do that!

and kudos to you contacting a behaviorist!

your dogs are just doing what they were bred to do- sight hounds are hunters. your dogs were not playing they were hunting- the squeal that the spaniel made was the sound of an animal in distress. pack hunters go for the underdog.

i personally hate dog parks. why are the dogs not divided by size? many/most are. 

that's why gh wear muzzles when they run free- but you can't have a muzzled dog when the other dogs are not muzzled.

 

[macoduck]

ZiggysMom, your greyhound did nothing wrong.

The owner of the beagle puppy was 100% at fault for bringing it in to the large dog side. Had there been an injury you would have not been liable.

Had your greyhound been muzzled and other dogs at the park not been muzzled, your dog would have been defenseless.

The only lesson to learn here is: don't go to dog parks.  Ask your adoption group for info about local greyhound-only playgroups.