Steak's Seizures

[EnzaFerrari]

hugs

[greysandmollie]

Many good thoughts for both of you....

 

I am so sorry...

[Guest RiverCityGang]

Oh, Beth, I am so sorry. I didn't watch the video, I still have the pictures in my mind of Ceasar's seizures. I hope you and the doctors can find something that helps. I feel bad for your whole family. My grandkids were so upset when the saw Ceasar seize and I'm sure it is hard for your girls, even though they are familar with them now. And I know how sad it is to see the personality changes.

 

Stress, heat , and chicken were the big triggers for him. I was known to leave meetings and rush home if a storm came up quickly and he wasn't in a safe room. After seeing him break furniture and knock things off the wall, I set up a room that had nothing that could hurt him and put him in there if I thought there was any chance at all he would seize. Some of my other dogs would attack him, so I had to be very careful. Fortunately, you have said your's don't do that.

 

The rectal valium syringe was always at hand.

 

My prayers are being sent that you can find a way to control this.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Stay positive Beth! I know it's hard, but hang in there. Sending prayers!

[Guest vahoundlover]

Damn

 

My prayers are with you guys............

[kamsmom]

We are home again. He got a valium bolus and is sound asleep now. He even calmed down enough to roach in the back seat of my car

 

When we went in he was dragging his back feet, the toes would curl under and he was scraping his nails on the ground He kept backing away from me and the vet as well. My oldest daughter, Kaitlyn, was with me and she was so very sad. The vet said he didn't think he needed to be kept at the office since I am so close. (I live 5 minutes from the office) But did have me go ahead and double the zonisamide today.

 

Hopefully the valium will help him get over the hump today.

 

Thank you all for you thoughts and support. I can't imagine going through this without friends who have been there before. So, thank you.

[TheFullHouse]

Hopefully the valium will keep him out for a while. I watched the video again because his seizures are as bad as Saint's. It's so hard to deal with and finding the right medication or combination of meds can take a while. It' took us 3 years to find the right drug for Kevin so I know how frustrating it can be. I'm keeping you all in my prayers.

[vsrenard]

The thought of Steak roaching in the car makes me smile.

 

Have you given anything thought to using more than one med? I don't know about dogs but in humans, most epileptic seizures (if that is indeed what he has) cannot be managed by one med alone, esp if they are clustered.

 

Hugs to all of you. The video you posted put me in tears--you are so very strong to be handling this...

[Remolacha]

I am so, so sorry he is going through this (and you too, of course) I have no advice , just more :candle and

[carronstar]

I am so sorry that Steak and your family are going through this. My heart hurts for you. I can't watch the video because I have a continuous loop of Morgaine's status seizure that runs through my mind and I just can't add to that. Please know that Steak and your family are in my heart, thoughts and prayers.

[inugrey]

continuing to keep you and Steak close in my thoughts.

[RaineysMom]

I was scared to watch that video....but I had to. Brought back so many horrible memories of Rainey hers were as bad as those.

 

glad you got him in, that's WAY too many seizures in that short of time, he should be under constant watch at an evet if possible.

 

I'm surprised (if I read your posts right) that they just changed to a different med each time -- with Rainey, it was all add ons. At the end, she was on 400 mg zonisamide (200 mg 2 x day), 2250 mg Keppra (750 mg 3 x day), and 120 mgs pheno (60 mg 2 x day) and it was only after adding the pheno that we saw ANY break in the seizures. Please talk to your doctor about this, they usually ADD meds not replace.

 

also, the ice pack on the back during seizures REALLY seemed to help Rainey. Since all of hers occured while eating, I would just pull it out before setting down her food bowl. Just keep one in the freezer, we used a soft (flexible kind of)one from Walgreen's.

 

keeping a seizure log is INVALUABLE too, noting everything you can and all med changes.

 

I pray he will be ok. My heart TOTALLY goes out to you :(

 

edited to add: also, after a seizure our doctor instructed us to give a full dosage of meds immediately after (i.e. 2 zonisamides, 1 Keppr and 1 pheno).

Edited August 25, 2011 by RaineysMom

[Guest Javasmom]

Dammit Beth, I am so sorry. This absolutely SUCKS! I have to say though, there are some people on here with experience that have had success treating this. I hope that, at some point, you are one of those people chiming in on a thread like this with your POSITIVE treatment experiences.

 

One other thing, KBr (Potassium Bromide - sorry, I am a lazy typer) is natural, it is a salt. It can be used in conjunction with other drugs, such as Phenobarbitol or Keppra. As with humans, sometimes it is not one treatment but perhaps a combination of treatments that do the trick. In my experience with veterinary pharmacy, most of the time, the dogs were not treated with just KBr but in combination with KBr. Just a thought.

 

Give Steakers a hug from me, I am so sorry he is going through this. My parents' dog had seizures to, it is terribly difficult to watch because of how helpless you feel during the seizure. I do believe that my parents' dog was given Gabapentin but when they get home later today, I will find out for sure what he was on and let you know. can't hurt to arm yourself with more tools to fight this.

 

Also, I find it very interesting that the barometer pressure seems to have something to do with this. I want to find out more about that.

 

Hugs to you and your girls, and, of course, Steakers.

[Guest LindsaySF]

First of all, big hugs.

 

My opinion, just based on dealings with Sophie: Steak needs to be on more meds to keep the seizures at bay.

 

If it helps to compare, Sophie is 75 lbs and this is what she receives daily: 400 mg Phenobarbital, 800 mg Zonisamide, 1,150 mg KBr. She's on the maximum dosages of Pheno and Zoni that are considered "safe", so if she gets worse we'll be adding Keppra next.

 

Keppra and Zonisamide are usually add-on drugs. I'm VERY surprised the vet had you stop each med when changing to another one. I have never even heard of that! I would restart the Pheno immediately and keep giving the other meds. You can go up to 8 Zoni pills per day (4 pills twice a day). The combination of all of them might achieve seizure control, whereas just one or two of them won't.

 

I'm glad to see that Steak has some ataxia right now. Honestly, you WANT to see that. If he's not ataxic enough from the valium or extra meds, chances are the meds are not at a high enough dosage in his system to stop the clustering. So ataxia is good at this point.

 

Sophie clustered last week. Badly. At one point she had received almost 800 mg Phenobarbital in one day, and was STILL seizing. But with a combination of extra phenobarb, and A LOT of rectal valium, I was able to get her seizures under control. For several days after that she was unable to stand or walk on her own, but it stopped the seizures, so I didn't care. If she's limp as a noodle I know she probably won't seize again. Sophie's neuro said that with a proper clustering protocol, you will never have to go to the ER vet for seizures again. The only time I would go is if Sophie had a seizure that wouldn't stop (then the vet needs to anesthetize them).

 

Do you give rectal valium after every seizure? What is the dosage? (The first neuro I saw with Sophie gave me the wrong dose. The IV dose is different from the rectal dose, rectal is higher because of absorption rates).

 

When Sophie seizes, she gets 20 mL rectal valium and 100 mg Pheno after every seizure. Her regular vet also recommended an extra 100 mg Pheno at each dose for the next 2 days. During her cluster last week, I got permission from her neuro to give her half a day's worth of meds (200 mg Pheno and 400 mg Zoni) after every seizure, in addition to the valium. That's a ridiculous amount of medication, but he thought it was necessary.

 

I would increase Steak's meds, and add the Pheno and KBr back in. I really think you'll see better seizure control if you do. If he's seizing every 2 weeks then he needs more medication.

 

ETA: Heat and humidity is a big trigger for Sophie. She is not heat tolerant at all. But once a cluster begins, it doesn't take much (or sometimes anything) to set off subsequent seizures. (The "kindling effect" of seizures). You need to hit them hard with meds to prevent clusters, because the brain "remembers" having a seizure, and tries to keep having them.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

Edited August 25, 2011 by LindsaySF

[Hubcitypam]

Oh Beth .

[greypuppyluv]

He just had another one We will be going back in to the vets office this morning. That will be #6 in 24 hours time.

 

I am keeping a log. The seizures are all different times. They last about the same amount of time but the only thing I have been able to narrow down is that it is every two weeks.

 

It stormed this morning and so Steak did his usual hiding in the bathroom. I checked in on him at 6am and he was good. I still keep wondering if the sudden and drastic weather change is what has thrown him into this.

 

It's quite possible that the change in weather/barometric pressure are what is causing his seizures. If you're keeping track of it in a log and that's what seems to be the issue, maybe you'll need to watch the weather reports and consider giving him something before a storm like Rescue Remedy or if your vet is ok with it, extra AE drugs. Maybe a Thundershirt or daily melatonin would help.

 

I would definitely look further into having him on several drugs (I'm sure you hate that thought, but it could help) and see if they would do a loading dose when adding a drug to hopefuly help break the seizure cycle.

 

Another consideration is to feed him raw or at least grain-free. I don't know what you currently feed him, but I've heard from a few people that once they switched their dog's diet to raw, the dog's seizures were either reduced or went away completely. I feed Phaelin grain-free (although it doesn't seem to make a difference right now) but I have considered raw if I could make sure he would get a balanced diet. Maybe check into the premade raw patties (ease him into them, of course, so they don't upset his stomach) if you have someplace local that sells them (our local specialty pet food place/feed store carries them).

 

I've heard that the ice pack can help (although I've never tried it) and you might want to learn ocular compression to see if that will help shorten Steak's seizures. I'm sure you've probably read all this stuff on the list, but it's different reading about someone else's dog going through this stuff and your own dog going through it.

 

I just saw that Lindsay responded with some really great advice. If Steak is still having seizures every 2 weeks and the vet/neuro won't consider giving him more AE drugs, please don't feel like you need to keep seeing that particular vet. I think Lindsay saw a different vet/neuro when Sophie's seizures weren't getting controlled and she wasn't happy with their advice. Steak is your baby and you're paying the bill, so you've got to make sure you're getting what you need from them. Ask them lots of questions (I always have them written down before I go in since I tend to forget them). You don't have to be pushy......just be informed.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I just saw that Lindsay responded with some really great advice. If Steak is still having seizures every 2 weeks and the vet/neuro won't consider giving him more AE drugs, please don't feel like you need to keep seeing that particular vet. I think Lindsay saw a different vet/neuro when Sophie's seizures weren't getting controlled and she wasn't happy with their advice. Steak is your baby and you're paying the bill, so you've got to make sure you're getting what you need from them. Ask them lots of questions (I always have them written down before I go in since I tend to forget them). You don't have to be pushy......just be informed.

Definitely! Don't be afraid to shop around! Sophie's regular vet treated her seizures for a year, but all she kept doing was increasing her Phenobarbital, she doesn't have any experience with anti-seizure drugs beyond Pheno and KBr. Then we saw a Neuro that I HATED, and never went back. She doubled the Pheno and KBr, gave me rectal valium (regular vet wouldn't), but the side effects of the extra meds were intolerable. Regular vet kept increasing the Pheno, but the behavioral changes in Sophie were bad, and she was still seizing, so we saw another Neuro. I liked him. He added Zonisamide and prescribed the proper rectal valium dose (I had no clue it had been too low all along).

 

Regular vet says to give extra Pheno for the next few days after a seizure, Neuro disagrees. Regular vet didn't see the benefit of rectal valium, but Neuro does. I have found that a combination of advice from several different sources works best for Sophie. And both her Neuro and her Regular vet have changed their minds about some things too, since dealing with Sophie. (Regular vet now sees the importance of valium in preventing clusters, Neuro vet now sees the advantage of giving other meds besides valium after a seizure). I'd like to think we've educated them.

 

If you're worried about increasing the meds, don't be. Pheno and KBr can cause ataxia and behavioral side effects (hunger, whining) at high enough doses, but used at low doses as an add-on to Zoni or Keppra, they provide great seizure control. I would advise adding/increasing them slowly over time to be safe. Sophie had ataxia when we increased her Pheno and especially the KBr from what they are now, so we plan to leave those alone, and "play" with other drugs to achieve better seizure control. But the Pheno and KBr do help control the seizures, so I'm leaving her on them, just not increasing them at all.

 

Sophie's Neuro told me that Zonisamide does not cause ataxia or behavioral changes, that's why he likes it so much, and he was right. There was some inappetance when first increasing the Zoni dose over time (he warned me about that), but that went away, and you'd never know Sophie was on it now. (He likes Keppra too, but usually suggests Zoni first just because it's cheaper). If you met Sophie, you wouldn't know she was on such high doses of medication. She still goes on walks with the pack and does zoomies around the yard. In the winter time she really shines, she loves the snow. I was so hesitant to keep increasing the Zoni, but I never noticed any changes in her behavior at all. I debated over going to yet a third vet, but now I'm so glad I did.

 

I hope that rambling helps!

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[greypuppyluv]

Sophie's Neuro told me that Zonisamide does not cause ataxia or behavioral changes, that's why he likes it so much, and he was right. There was some inappetance when first increasing the Zoni dose over time (he warned me about that), but that went away, and you'd never know Sophie was on it now.

 

~Lindsay~

 

I can tell you that when I first went on Zonisamide for my migraines, I had major nausea. Every time I ate, I would feel sick to my stomach right afterward, so I can imagine a dog not wanting to eat when on it. That feeling did eventually go away and didn't come back.

[MaryJane]

I feel your pain ... two weeks ago Lucy had another seizure which lasted almost 2 minutes and was probably a touch worse than what you showed in the video of Steak. This was only her second seizure in 5 months so she is not on medicines right now but I'm preparing myself for more seizures. I contacted Lindsay and she was great with all the information that she provided - I can only suggest that you take advantage of her skill in dealing with this condition. I also went through and searched the forums for information about treatments so that when I went to the vet I would be prepared.

 

I guess some of the questions I asked myself might be useful in your case ..

 

Did you give him rectal valium - I was instructed to give rectal valium if she seizes more than 1 to 2 minutes because it will lessen the chance of another seizure in the next few hours. The dose of rectal Valium I got was 5.5 ml from the regular vet but I will be going to a neurologist shortly and check to see if this dose is appropriate.

 

Are you seeing a neurologist or a regular vet - I will be seeing a neurologist that will monitor Lucy along with the regular vet.

 

Sugar needs after a seizure - I plan on giving yogurt or ice cream (maybe even some molasses) after a seizure because of the toll that it exerts on the "glucose food store" in the body.

 

Baseline MRI - yikes, these are expensive but, I will probably be getting a baseline MRI to check whether there is anything going on. After that I am not likely to get another MRI unless both the neurologist and I agree that there might be damage occurring from the seizures.

 

ice - my vet is recommending using cold towels to the back and chest rather than ice because ice might be too much of a shock to the system. But, I will rechecking this with the neurologist to see if there are any studies available.

 

pillow - you might want to have a pillow for his head - when Lucy had her seizure she was banging her head on the floor and I worried whether that could cause additional damage ... in my case, this could end up requiring another MRI/xray to make sure that she didn't cause additional damage to herself

 

vet visits after a seizure - my plans are at this time that after Lucy seizes she will be seen by the vet to check her out but that should just be an office visit ($40 to $50). I'm not planning to do emergency visits unless she doesn't stop seizing after 4 minutes. I'm expecting (like Lindsay said) that most of this can be handled at home.

 

goal of less than 1 seizure a month - my understanding is that the goal is to keep seizures to less than 1 per month (I may be wrong and if so, please correct me). If there are more seizures than that then I would think the medicines need to be increased and/or changed (please correct me if I am wrong here).

 

If Steak is seizing every two weeks than it sounds IMHO like he is not "stable" yet. It also sounds like when Steak went into his clustering he was not getting additional medicines (until the last vet visit) to stop the clustering so it sounds INHO like a better procedure needs to be worked out with your neurologist when he starts to cluster. It sounds to me like your neurologist has not worked out a "plan" for getting the seizures under control and what you should do in the case of clustering, if that is the case, you may want to find another neurologist in your area. I would also suggest contacting the adoption groups in your area and finding out who they use for their "seizure dogs".

 

I want to apologize if any of my responses sound rude - they are not meant to be. I'm a novice at this but, I'm trying to pull in as much information and things to do and when to do them so that I am as prepared as I can be.

 

Good luck

[LBass]

I'm so sorry Steak is having such a hard time right now. Cluster episodes are exhausting and frightening. I apologize if I'm about to post something that doesn't relate to Steak but I want to share something I learned with Piper. I've not read through this thread as carefully as I should before posting.

 

Every summer like clockwork Piper, whose seizures look much like Steak's video, would have a horrible cluster episode. Usually he had 10-13 seizures over a 36-48 hour period. His seizures were usually several hours apart. I dutifully gave rectal Valium (at the correct dose to help) after each seizure but nothing ever stopped the clustering until it seemed to have run its course, leaving us both exhausted.

 

The more I read about rectal Valium, the more I began to realize that it is great for seizures that come very close together--say with in 30 minutes to an hour of each other. The quick absorption you get with rectal administration gets the drug right in there to block the next seizure. However, with seizures occurring farther apart than about an hour, the effectiveness of the rectal Valium is gone by the time the next seizure rolled around.

 

My vet and I talked about this, he consulted a neurologist, and they came up with a different approach to stopping Piper's clusters. Now after each seizure I give him 1 1/2 grains of Pb and 10 mg of oral Valium. I give that same dose of both meds again avery six hours until he has been seizure free for 24 hours. These extra "cluster busters" are given on top of his regular dose of 5 grains of PB and 400 mg KBr daily.

 

Since starting this protocol 2 years ago Piper has gotten through 2 years, including 3 summers, with no cluster episodes. Unheard of in the previous 5 years.

 

 

Treating seizures is so individual and I know that what works for my dog may not help Steak at all, but I always want to share this hard won insight in to the wonderful usefulness but also the limitations of rectal Valium. Especially when things aren't working. Sometimes it is just time to try something else to see if it helps.

 

Piper is about 72 Lbs, for comparison.

 

Sending all good thoughts and healing prayers for you and Steak. This is such a rough condition to manage.

 

--Lucy

[greypuppyluv]

ice - my vet is recommending using cold towels to the back and chest rather than ice because ice might be too much of a shock to the system. But, I will rechecking this with the neurologist to see if there are any studies available.

 

Sugar needs after a seizure - I plan on giving yogurt or ice cream (maybe even some molasses) after a seizure because of the toll that it exerts on the "glucose food store" in the body.

 

 

The ice pack as referred to in this thread isn't used to cool the dog, but to help stop the seizures. A friend used it on her seizure girl and she told me it seemed to help shorten her seizures. Phaelin's seizures are fairly quick so I've never had the time to go to the freezer to get one to try it with him. Phaelin's head seems to get pretty hot after a seizure, so I try to keep his head cool.

 

I do give Phaelin vanilla Haagen-Dazs right after a seizure because it seems to help cool him down fairly quickly plus I think the real sugar in it helps bring his blood sugar back up.

[MaryJane]

ice - my vet is recommending using cold towels to the back and chest rather than ice because ice might be too much of a shock to the system. But, I will rechecking this with the neurologist to see if there are any studies available.

 

Sugar needs after a seizure - I plan on giving yogurt or ice cream (maybe even some molasses) after a seizure because of the toll that it exerts on the "glucose food store" in the body.

 

 

The ice pack as referred to in this thread isn't used to cool the dog, but to help stop the seizures. A friend used it on her seizure girl and she told me it seemed to help shorten her seizures. Phaelin's seizures are fairly quick so I've never had the time to go to the freezer to get one to try it with him. Phaelin's head seems to get pretty hot after a seizure, so I try to keep his head cool.

 

I do give Phaelin vanilla Haagen-Dazs right after a seizure because it seems to help cool him down fairly quickly plus I think the real sugar in it helps bring his blood sugar back up.

 

Thanks you for the clarification - as you noted, my reference to ice packs was in context of what to use for cooling the dog down - that is what I discussed with the vet and she said wet (cold) towels.

 

Question - how much ice cream do you give and over what period of time?

[greypuppyluv]

ice - my vet is recommending using cold towels to the back and chest rather than ice because ice might be too much of a shock to the system. But, I will rechecking this with the neurologist to see if there are any studies available.

 

Sugar needs after a seizure - I plan on giving yogurt or ice cream (maybe even some molasses) after a seizure because of the toll that it exerts on the "glucose food store" in the body.

 

 

The ice pack as referred to in this thread isn't used to cool the dog, but to help stop the seizures. A friend used it on her seizure girl and she told me it seemed to help shorten her seizures. Phaelin's seizures are fairly quick so I've never had the time to go to the freezer to get one to try it with him. Phaelin's head seems to get pretty hot after a seizure, so I try to keep his head cool.

 

I do give Phaelin vanilla Haagen-Dazs right after a seizure because it seems to help cool him down fairly quickly plus I think the real sugar in it helps bring his blood sugar back up.

 

Thanks you for the clarification - as you noted, my reference to ice packs was in context of what to use for cooling the dog down - that is what I discussed with the vet and she said wet (cold) towels.

 

Question - how much ice cream do you give and over what period of time?

 

I usually give him about 4 tablespoons of ice cream one after another. I don't give much more because I don't want him to get the big D (he has a sensitive tummy). There have been times I've used a cool, wet washcloth on his head (and the rest of his body too since I usually have to clean the urine off of him ) to help cool him down right afterward.

[rallyp]

Hey Beth, I'm just catching up on what's been happening with Steak . You guys must be exhausted. I really hope things settle down soon for everyone.

[Guest tricolorhounds]

What a horrible time for both Steak and your family. I will keep all of you in my thoughts and hope that the right combo of meds will bring him some relief.

 

P.S. I did watch the video and read all 4 pages, thank you for sharing. The only experience I've had with seizures was my LabMix Cecily but hers were focal seizures of unknown origin.

Edited August 26, 2011 by tricolorhounds