Osteo Thread Part 9

[FiveRoooooers]

3 hours ago, Gardenrosakim said:

Thank you. That all makes sense. I restarted the carprofen, and will ask about codeine sulfate. I need to manage my own anxiety as well. I am worried that he might over do things, worried that we might walk too far, worried to let him try two steps down to the yard, or walk up a slope, hop up on the couch--all things that he wants to do, and has done just fine so far (well, the couch, once he got up there, wasn't comfortable for him and he got right back down). I was told post-surgery that tripods do just great after they recover--walk, run, get up on furniture, do agility! That doesn't factor in the cancer part of it in my mind, but I want him to be active and continue to enjoy his life as long as he can. His lungs were clear prior to surgery so there is good reason to think he can be with us for awhile yet. I am sure as we go along, I will be able to relax and stop waiting for the other shoe to drop. He did great on a walk this morning down to where he likes to sniff, and he seemed so happy to be doing that. 

Dogs live in the moment, and you are giving Skip every opportunity to have some wonderful, meaningful moments. Hang in there, you are doing great. 

I love your siggy, too!

[Gardenrosakim]

8 hours ago, greysmom said:

 

You be shocked, surprised, terrified, joyful, and many other emotions by what your tripod ends up doing!!  Our boy could do our steep stairs up to our bedroom - up AND down!! - and I had my heart in my throat each and every trip!  But he was determined to sleep with us, as he always did, so he figured out how to do it.  He loved digging in the yard, and figured out how to do that with three legs too.  He did zoomies with his brother and sisters, played with the lure pole, chased balls, threw his stuffies around - a tripod will do everything.  No matter how much it scares you!!  Just listen and watch them carefully so he doesn't overdo.

We ended up doing acupuncture and canine massage at home for him, to help our boy stay loose and keep his skeleton in line.  There are a lot of physical stresses on their bodies and keeping them in shape really helps.

Also, PTSD is real for you.  Don't neglect your own mental and physical health.  {{{hugs}}}

This made me smile and feel hopeful. I love thinking about him doing all those things and clearly feeling joy.

As for me and how I am feeling, I appreciate you bringing that up as well. Witnessing Skip break his leg was one of the most horrible things I have ever been through. We had no warning at all, no limping or difficulties. One minute he was fine, and the next minute he was in so much pain. You immediately kick into strong mom mode--getting him help, asking questions, making plans, and making sure he is getting what he needs. You don't ever feel like you can let down and be sad.

[Gardenrosakim]

6 hours ago, FiveRoooooers said:

Dogs live in the moment, and you are giving Skip every opportunity to have some wonderful, meaningful moments. Hang in there, you are doing great. 

I love your siggy, too!

Thank you! My handsome boy...

[ramonaghan]

Just now, Gardenrosakim said:

This made me smile and feel hopeful. I love thinking about him doing all those things and clearly feeling joy.

As for me and how I am feeling, I appreciate you bringing that up as well. Witnessing Skip break his leg was one of the most horrible things I have ever been through. We had no warning at all, no limping or difficulties. One minute he was fine, and the next minute he was in so much pain. You immediately kick into strong mom mode--getting him help, asking questions, making plans, and making sure he is getting what he needs. You don't ever feel like you can let down and be sad.

Many of us have witnessed the leg break and know exactly how you feel. Adrenaline and shock push you through the first horrible days and weeks of this diagnosis and then it's a roller coaster of small victories and massive anxiety. Please always feel free to vent here and know that we understand what you're going through. Skip is lucky to have such a loving mom and advocate. You're doing great, and I hope you have many, many more happy days with your best boy!

[Gardenrosakim]

2 minutes ago, ramonaghan said:

Many of us have witnessed the leg break and know exactly how you feel. Adrenaline and shock push you through the first horrible days and weeks of this diagnosis and then it's a roller coaster of small victories and massive anxiety. Please always feel free to vent here and know that we understand what you're going through. Skip is lucky to have such a loving mom and advocate. You're doing great, and I hope you have many, many more happy days with your best boy!

Thank you. I so appreciate that you all are out there and understand. Sometimes I feel like if I let myself cry, I would never stop. And then I shake it off and go back to carrying on and being positive. And I do want to be positive for him.

[Gardenrosakim]

Are there signs to look for that they might be experiencing phantom pain? Skip had an episode of panting yesterday and was licking his front leg on the same side as his amp. Kim

[greysmom]

Those are signs of having a pain episode.  I myself can't really distinguish between phantom pain from the amped limb and real pain from surgery or other causes.  In any event, pain signs such and panting, elevated heart rate, restlessness and whining mean you may need to up his pain meds.  Licking is a common way dogs sooth themselves, too.  It could be just soothing behavior, OR it could mean he is having pain at that particular spot.  If you're seeing his oncologist soon, I would mention it and ask about grabbing a quick xray of that leg (toes to shoulder) just to make sure the cancer hasn't metastasized into that leg.

Hang in there!!!  We've all been where you are now and we understand what you're going through.

[gracegirl]

Hi Skip. Welcome to the club no one wants to join. Tessie had the same limb amputated in July of last year. We did six rounds of carboplatin chemo after the amp and Tessie is still doing great. Everyone here can tell you that I was panicking after surgery and now I’m so glad we did it. I don’t have much to offer in terms of advice on the pain meds that hasn’t already been covered above. But keep coming back and asking questions, this community is priceless. 

[Gardenrosakim]

11 hours ago, gracegirl said:

Hi Skip. Welcome to the club no one wants to join. Tessie had the same limb amputated in July of last year. We did six rounds of carboplatin chemo after the amp and Tessie is still doing great. Everyone here can tell you that I was panicking after surgery and now I’m so glad we did it. I don’t have much to offer in terms of advice on the pain meds that hasn’t already been covered above. But keep coming back and asking questions, this community is priceless. 

Thanks! I  am happy to know that Tessie is doing so well. The uncertainty of the outcome weighs heavy right now. Skip has had a pressure sore on his front right elbow since his surgery. Originally, it was scabbed over and seemed okay, but now the scab has come off and underneath is it looking infected, green discharge. It is causing him pain since he puts so much more pressure on his front legs when getting up. I have an appt. to take him in this afternoon to have them look at it. Has anyone else dealt with pressure sores?

[MRK]

Hi all, my boy was just diagnosed with osteosarcoma in his front left shoulder.  I don't have time to read this entire thread because I have to make a decision soon, so please bear with me.  Zane is almost 7, about 75-80 pounds, and he's an anxious dog.  My vet is suggesting a round of Carboplatin on Monday, followed by amputation on Friday, then 5 more rounds of Carboplatin.  I know that greys can live well on 3 legs.  I do have a single long flight of stairs to the second level, and he's used to using a dog door.  I'm not sure how he would handle those things.  He doesn't go out running or playing.  He sleeps most of the time, sometimes has short zoomies, and I take him for a walk every day.  He is anxious in the car and even worse at the vet.  He sometimes has anxiety attacks and pants and paces around the house.  My concern isn't so much with him being a tripod, but the cost of putting him through the chemo and amputation knowing it is going to be stressful for him (and me).  Especially since I don't know for sure that the chemo will work and that he'll be happy on 3 legs.  I don't know if I'd even be able to get him in the car since I can't lift him myself, and he probably won't want to jump in. 

I'd feel guilty for putting him through so much, but I'd feel guilty for deciding to let him go.  Damned if I do and damned if I don't.  I don't want to make this decision for me but for him.  I want him to be happy and at peace.  Whether that means letting him go or trying to save his life, I don't know.  My vet is strongly suggesting chemo and amputation (she did this with her own greyhound and patients), but some greyhound folks don't think it's a good idea.  In the end, I actually think anything I do will be harder on me than on him.  Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. 

[ramonaghan]

I'm so sorry for Zane's diagnosis. He's so young.   Your concerns are totally understandable, and you've already grasped the sad reality of this disease: Damned if I do and damned if I don't. I don't want this to sound harsh, but the cancer will eventually win. There's no saving his life here, only extending it with as much quality as you can. 

Sweep loved rides but hated going to the vet and was extremely anxious there. That was compounded by the fact that we went through this when COVID protocols were still in place and we couldn't ever go inside the clinic with her. Her oncology team suggested giving her Trazadone before her chemo treatments. Zane's vet might suggest that or something else to help his anxiety if he's not on anything currently. The good news is that chemo doesn't take long; depending on whether they were doing x-rays too or not, each appointment was usually 30–60 minutes. If Zane is food motivated, burgers or roast beef sandwiches as a special post-chemo treat can also help make it not such a scary experience.

The amputation and hospital stay will be harder on him. We had hoped Sweep could stay a couple of nights at the clinic, but she was so stressed they had us pick her up the very next day. They remarked that she walked better to the car to go home with us than she ever had for them. Once she was back at home and with us, she did fine.

Sweep was much older than Zane at the time of her surgery (11) and she was a rear leg amp, so she didn't do indoor stairs anymore afterward; her hind end just wasn't strong enough. Age is on Zane's side here. I suspect he would do fine with the stairs after the initial adjustment period. You'll likely need help getting him into the car at first. Is there a friend or neighbor who could give you a hand during his recovery? You'll need a good harness; check this thread for suggestions for front leg amps.

It's not an easy road no matter what you choose. My husband and I talk a lot about whether we'd do it again with our current hounds, and we just don't know. Despite her anxiety at the vet's, Sweep was a fighter and I'm not sure our current two are wired that way. We got almost 15 months with her after the initial leg break and we wouldn't trade that time for anything, but the constant vigilance is exhausting and stressful. We have no regrets about our decisions with her, but so much is down to the individual dog and what YOU can handle and afford. The flip side of "all the options suck" is that there's no right or wrong decision; you make the best choice you can with the info you have, and out of love for your dog. 

On a final note, I'll say that I do think it's helpful when the vet has gone through this with their own pets. Our oncologist had done an amputation on his dog (not a greyhound) and he told us when they found the osteo, he had a moment of "What do I do?" and decided that he couldn't very well not follow his own recommendation to other owners. It was comforting to know that he'd been in our shoes before and he could share firsthand what to expect at each stage.

[ramonaghan]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:37 AM, Gardenrosakim said:

Thanks! I  am happy to know that Tessie is doing so well. The uncertainty of the outcome weighs heavy right now. Skip has had a pressure sore on his front right elbow since his surgery. Originally, it was scabbed over and seemed okay, but now the scab has come off and underneath is it looking infected, green discharge. It is causing him pain since he puts so much more pressure on his front legs when getting up. I have an appt. to take him in this afternoon to have them look at it. Has anyone else dealt with pressure sores?

Sorry I missed this. I never dealt with pressure sores. How is Skip doing?  

[MRK]

2 hours ago, ramonaghan said:

I'm so sorry for Zane's diagnosis. He's so young.   Your concerns are totally understandable, and you've already grasped the sad reality of this disease: Damned if I do and damned if I don't. I don't want this to sound harsh, but the cancer will eventually win. There's no saving his life here, only extending it with as much quality as you can. 

Sweep loved rides but hated going to the vet and was extremely anxious there. That was compounded by the fact that we went through this when COVID protocols were still in place and we couldn't ever go inside the clinic with her. Her oncology team suggested giving her Trazadone before her chemo treatments. Zane's vet might suggest that or something else to help his anxiety if he's not on anything currently. The good news is that chemo doesn't take long; depending on whether they were doing x-rays too or not, each appointment was usually 30–60 minutes. If Zane is food motivated, burgers or roast beef sandwiches as a special post-chemo treat can also help make it not such a scary experience.

The amputation and hospital stay will be harder on him. We had hoped Sweep could stay a couple of nights at the clinic, but she was so stressed they had us pick her up the very next day. They remarked that she walked better to the car to go home with us than she ever had for them. Once she was back at home and with us, she did fine.

Sweep was much older than Zane at the time of her surgery (11) and she was a rear leg amp, so she didn't do indoor stairs anymore afterward; her hind end just wasn't strong enough. Age is on Zane's side here. I suspect he would do fine with the stairs after the initial adjustment period. You'll likely need help getting him into the car at first. Is there a friend or neighbor who could give you a hand during his recovery? You'll need a good harness; check this thread for suggestions for front leg amps.

It's not an easy road no matter what you choose. My husband and I talk a lot about whether we'd do it again with our current hounds, and we just don't know. Despite her anxiety at the vet's, Sweep was a fighter and I'm not sure our current two are wired that way. We got almost 15 months with her after the initial leg break and we wouldn't trade that time for anything, but the constant vigilance is exhausting and stressful. We have no regrets about our decisions with her, but so much is down to the individual dog and what YOU can handle and afford. The flip side of "all the options suck" is that there's no right or wrong decision; you make the best choice you can with the info you have, and out of love for your dog. 

On a final note, I'll say that I do think it's helpful when the vet has gone through this with their own pets. Our oncologist had done an amputation on his dog (not a greyhound) and he told us when they found the osteo, he had a moment of "What do I do?" and decided that he couldn't very well not follow his own recommendation to other owners. It was comforting to know that he'd been in our shoes before and he could share firsthand what to expect at each stage.

Thank you for your reply.  It's just so hard to know how he will do.  I don't really have anyone to help except my son, but he's in school during the day.  I also don't know if Zane is a fighter.  He's already had some weird health things and has been to the vet many times.  It always makes him anxious.  And this whole thing makes ME anxious, which I know doesn't help.  I keep flip-flopping.  Part of me tells me that he doesn't know about longevity and lives in the moment, so why put him through such misery, even if it's temporary?  The other part tells me he could get through surgery and chemo and come out just fine and live another few years.  But honestly, this dog doesn't really do much.  I know most greyhounds are like that, but he doesn't go running in the yard or out for long walks.  Just neighborhood sniff/pee walks, and a short zoomie/toss toys around most days.  Otherwise he sleeps.  So who am I doing this for?  Me or him?

[greysmom]

Firstly, I'm so sorry that you're having to join this particular club.  It just sucks.  All the way around, up and down.

Second - and I don't mean to sound harsh, it is what it is - your dog is already on hospice alert.  Once the cancer is able to be detected on xray, it has already spread throughout their body, and it's just waiting to metastisize somewhere else.  The entire purpose of going the amp/chemo route is to remove the primary source of pain for your dog.  We know that even small lesions of osteo are hideously painful.  But even after you remove the primary tumor already diagnosed, you only extending the period of time for your goodbyes.  The cancer will, eventually, come back.

If you go with amp/chemo your dog will need to spend significant amounts of time at the vet for the first two to three months.  If everything goes according to plan, the visits will be less after that, but they will still be needed.  Our boy LOVED going to the vet, and the oncology staff loved having around.  They would set him up for his chemo in the middle of their office instead of in a kennel and take turns sitting with him and giving him tons of attention the entire time.  But he was never nervous or anxious going to see them and I never had a minutes anxiety myself leaving him.   It was fortunate he loved it because the first three months he was there as much as at home between three surgeries and follow-up appointments, bloodwork and labs, chemo, follow up xrays - it seemed every week he was there for something vital to check or fix or start or finish.  So really (really) consider the effect that the stress of having to go to the vet so much will have on your dog.

Going the palliative care route is a perfectly valid choice for many owners.  You don't get as long to say goodbye - the pain-free time you get with drug therapy is short - but your dog will be happy at home with the people he loves, without the added anxiety of going to the vet so often.  The biggest risk with doing this option is the risk from your dog having a catastrophic bone fracture at home due to the cancer eating away at the bone.  If you go this route it's best to have a discussion with your vet about what to do in the event of such an emergency.

It's also fine to choose neither of those, and to let your boy go before the pain becomes unbearable.  When he's having a good day after you've spoiled him rotten.  A day you can both choose in advance and be in control of.  I recommend finding a good vet who can come to your home to perform the euthanasia so everyone can be relaxed and accept the end with grace and dignity.  We've done it all sorts of ways, and this is, by far, the only way we will choose to let our dogs go if we have any choice at all.

A note about your vet:  Having a sympathetic doctor is always the best.  But they are wired to fix things - even things that can't be fixed.  So they are almost always going to advise doing amp/chemo.  That's not bad or good, just what their knowledge and experience tell them is the thing to do.  They also, for the most part, don't have to consider the cost of what that route means to most people.  For us, in 2011, our dog's amp/chemo and nine months of life ended up costing us nearly $20,000.  Fortunately, we had just received a substantial amount of money from my mother-in-law's estate, so we could afford it.  It sucks having to consider this part, but you do need to factor it in.

It's not an easy choice - and it shouldn't be - but whichever choice you make know it's the right one for you and your dog and your individual situation.  It's highly personal and none of us can tell you what that choice should be.  We can just lay out the options for you to have as much information as you need.

Again, I'm sorry...

[MRK]

6 hours ago, greysmom said:

Firstly, I'm so sorry that you're having to join this particular club.  It just sucks.  All the way around, up and down.

Second - and I don't mean to sound harsh, it is what it is - your dog is already on hospice alert.  Once the cancer is able to be detected on xray, it has already spread throughout their body, and it's just waiting to metastisize somewhere else.  The entire purpose of going the amp/chemo route is to remove the primary source of pain for your dog.  We know that even small lesions of osteo are hideously painful.  But even after you remove the primary tumor already diagnosed, you only extending the period of time for your goodbyes.  The cancer will, eventually, come back.

If you go with amp/chemo your dog will need to spend significant amounts of time at the vet for the first two to three months.  If everything goes according to plan, the visits will be less after that, but they will still be needed.  Our boy LOVED going to the vet, and the oncology staff loved having around.  They would set him up for his chemo in the middle of their office instead of in a kennel and take turns sitting with him and giving him tons of attention the entire time.  But he was never nervous or anxious going to see them and I never had a minutes anxiety myself leaving him.   It was fortunate he loved it because the first three months he was there as much as at home between three surgeries and follow-up appointments, bloodwork and labs, chemo, follow up xrays - it seemed every week he was there for something vital to check or fix or start or finish.  So really (really) consider the effect that the stress of having to go to the vet so much will have on your dog.

Going the palliative care route is a perfectly valid choice for many owners.  You don't get as long to say goodbye - the pain-free time you get with drug therapy is short - but your dog will be happy at home with the people he loves, without the added anxiety of going to the vet so often.  The biggest risk with doing this option is the risk from your dog having a catastrophic bone fracture at home due to the cancer eating away at the bone.  If you go this route it's best to have a discussion with your vet about what to do in the event of such an emergency.

It's also fine to choose neither of those, and to let your boy go before the pain becomes unbearable.  When he's having a good day after you've spoiled him rotten.  A day you can both choose in advance and be in control of.  I recommend finding a good vet who can come to your home to perform the euthanasia so everyone can be relaxed and accept the end with grace and dignity.  We've done it all sorts of ways, and this is, by far, the only way we will choose to let our dogs go if we have any choice at all.

A note about your vet:  Having a sympathetic doctor is always the best.  But they are wired to fix things - even things that can't be fixed.  So they are almost always going to advise doing amp/chemo.  That's not bad or good, just what their knowledge and experience tell them is the thing to do.  They also, for the most part, don't have to consider the cost of what that route means to most people.  For us, in 2011, our dog's amp/chemo and nine months of life ended up costing us nearly $20,000.  Fortunately, we had just received a substantial amount of money from my mother-in-law's estate, so we could afford it.  It sucks having to consider this part, but you do need to factor it in.

It's not an easy choice - and it shouldn't be - but whichever choice you make know it's the right one for you and your dog and your individual situation.  It's highly personal and none of us can tell you what that choice should be.  We can just lay out the options for you to have as much information as you need.

Again, I'm sorry...

Thank you greysmom and ramonaghan for sharing your experiences.  I have also heard from others on FB -- the good, the bad, the ugly.  This morning I made the decision to not go through with amp and chemo.  Well, maybe Zane made that decision for me.  As I woke up he was lying next to me, whimpering trying to get comfortable.  He's been through so much already, and I can't put him through months of car rides and vet visits.  Just getting him diagnosed was stressful.  They tried to do a FNA after the x-ray but he was so ramped up on stress and adrenaline that the sedative didn't work.  It took him over two hours at home to settle down from that and I had to bring him in again for a full sedation just to get the sample.  He had a spontaneous bloody nose incident recently that was truly horrific for both of us.  I can't imagine the toll that surgery and chemo would do on his well-being (or mine), all for an uncertain outcome.  I am aware of the risk bone fracture and I very much don't want that to happen.  I will be having a vet come here this week to let him go peacefully.  I did that with my first grey (osteo on the ribs, he was 12 with a heart murmur, treatment wasn't an option), and my most recent old lady grey.  No more stressful car rides and vet visits for my baby.  Lots of love, meds, treats, and naps until we say goodbye.

[ramonaghan]

11 minutes ago, MRK said:

Lots of love, meds, treats, and naps until we say goodbye.

This sounds perfect. I hope you take some comfort from having made the decision, as hard as it is. Zane is very lucky to have you. Sending many hugs your way.  

[EllenEveBaz]

 

[JaimeL]

It takes a very big heart and lots of love to make this kind of decision.  Hugs to you and Zane for a peaceful passing.

[FiveRoooooers]

[gracegirl]

I had a long and thoughtful message typed out over the weekend and never finished editing it to send. The just of it was “every dog is different and I would not have done amp/chemo for all of them“. Enjoy the precious time you have left together. 

[greysmom]

I'm so sorry........

{{{hugs}}}

[MP_the4pack]

 

[Gardenrosakim]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:26 AM, ramonaghan said:

Sorry I missed this. I never dealt with pressure sores. How is Skip doing?  

He is doing very well! We had a walk with 12 greyhound buddies and their peeps on Sunday, and he was so excited to see them, it made me want to cry. I really notice a change in him wanting to be social again and that seems like a good sign.

The pressure sore has been a difficult to get healed since it is right on his elbow and is constantly being stressed when he gets up off his bed. We had another round of antibiotics and some topical cream. I fashioned a leg cover out of a fleece tube that I sewed to a tee shirt sleeve and it worked pretty well to keep him from licking it, but not perfect. I ended up buying an elbow guard on Amazon and that has worked great. (Our initial visit to the E Vet about it, they bandaged it too tight and I had to cut it off his leg at 3 am when I noticed his foot had swollen up like a tennis ball.) It is still not completely healed over so I still have him wearing the elbow guard. I am thinking it is going to be an ongoing problem.

[ramonaghan]

14 hours ago, Gardenrosakim said:

He is doing very well! We had a walk with 12 greyhound buddies and their peeps on Sunday, and he was so excited to see them, it made me want to cry. I really notice a change in him wanting to be social again and that seems like a good sign.

The pressure sore has been a difficult to get healed since it is right on his elbow and is constantly being stressed when he gets up off his bed. We had another round of antibiotics and some topical cream. I fashioned a leg cover out of a fleece tube that I sewed to a tee shirt sleeve and it worked pretty well to keep him from licking it, but not perfect. I ended up buying an elbow guard on Amazon and that has worked great. (Our initial visit to the E Vet about it, they bandaged it too tight and I had to cut it off his leg at 3 am when I noticed his foot had swollen up like a tennis ball.) It is still not completely healed over so I still have him wearing the elbow guard. I am thinking it is going to be an ongoing problem.

It sounds like he's doing great, pressure sore aside! There's another current thread called "Split webbing" where we talk about EMT gel and Derma Gel; either might help you out.

Yay, Skip! Keep up the good work.  

[gracegirl]

Has anyone had trouble with their hound sleeping through the night after a diagnosis? Now that Tessie is healed up from her amp and past chemo, her new thing is getting up at least once in the middle of the night. Even when we leave the dog door open for her. 
 

Please give me all the advice, tips, tricks. We are tired. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by gracegirl