Batmom Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 the head vet said it was DIC. Amicar won't help (and would hurt) in a case of DIC. DIC is awful -- I'm sorry for your loss. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlies_Dad Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Kerry, we also have used Amicar twice. Once when Charlie had his amp and then the second time for Shelby when she had a growth removed from her gums which turned out to be a nightmare of a bleeding issue. Her face filled with blood and no matter what the vet did, they could not get it under control. We remembered Amicar too late and our local vet had never heard of it either but luckily Derek, aka Trihounds, had some via his vet and was so kind to get us some which after given to Shelby helped stop the bleeding. I'm sorry you're going through all this. I also agree with others that getting to the bottom of the low platelets is more important than the dental right now. Quote Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge. Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP_the4pack Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I would also ask for a repeat blood test. The platelets could have started forming a clot in the tube if the draw was done not quite right. If they started forming clots, then they don't show up in counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philospher77 Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Just going to mention that the form of the drug can factor into the price at pharmacies, so make sure that they are quoting for tablets and not the injection. I have Katie on generic Prozac, which I had been dosing at 20 mg (capsules). We decided to up the dose to 30 mgs, which isn't an off-the-shelf dose in capsules, so I was given a prescription for 20 mg tablets, so I could give 1 and a half. The price for the capsules is around $15. The price for the same medicine, same dose, same quantity, in tablet form? $161! So now I have a prescription for 10 mg and 20 g capsules. It's crazy. So, check around on the price and the drug format. Also, if Amicar only prevents clots from breaking up, it won't help if your greyhound is low on platelets, since that means that the clots are less likely to form in the first place. Just something to consider. Quote My blog about helping Katie learn to be a more normal dog: http://katies-journey-philospher77.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlinsMum Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 Thank you for all your continuing input, it's all really helpful.Just wanted to clarify that they retested his platelets three times after the first lab results. This did include a manual count, which showed just 4-7 platelets per field, and 'giant' platelets (young platelets that have just been released) running low. Amicar is far, far more expensive in tablet form than it is in liquid form. But, as I mentioned in a previous comment, sadly the liquid form is not currently available due to manufacturing problems (although it's supposed to be available any day now). Quote Kerry with Lupin in beautiful coastal Maine. Missing Pippin, my best friend and sweet little heart-healer 2013-2023 Also missing the best wizard in the world, Merlin, and my sweet 80lb limpet, Sagan, every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeofNE Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Dr. Couto recommends all greyhounds be given Amicar pre surgically. I thought it was am amino acid? Quote Susan, Hamish, Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlinsMum Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) Dr. Couto recommends all greyhounds be given Amicar pre surgically. I thought it was am amino acid? Wow, really? Even when no bleeding episode has been experienced in previous surgeries? Merlin and Sagan have had several dentals between the two of them, and they have never been given it. In fact, I'd never even heard of it. There again they've never had bleeding issues. I found this paper by Dr. Couto's team: http://issuu.com/oncologiavet/docs/aminocaproic_acid_greyhounds_amputation_osa_jvecc_ and I haven't had the time to read it all yet. Unfortunately it looks as though you have to have a subscription to the Journal of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care in order to download it as a PDF. If bleeding is a particularly greyhound-related issue, and vet offices don't have it on the shelf as a matter of course, I doubt that many greys are being given it pre-surgery... most vet clinics aren't tailored specifically to greys, after all.. Edited July 3, 2013 by MerlinsMum Quote Kerry with Lupin in beautiful coastal Maine. Missing Pippin, my best friend and sweet little heart-healer 2013-2023 Also missing the best wizard in the world, Merlin, and my sweet 80lb limpet, Sagan, every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvEarsies Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) LuvEarsies, where did you get it so cheap? I have been looking online and even if you buy it more cheaply from a Canadian store, it seems you have to buy it in large quantities. I don't need 100 tablets. The vet tech I spoke to this afternoon spent ages calling pharmacies around here and no one carried it. They could special order it but the cheapest price quoted to her for the amount I would need was $186 at Rite Aid. We purchased it at our local Walgreens pharmacy. I am sorry you are having such a hard time finding it at a reasonable cost. However, I agree with what the others have said, the dental can wait until you sort out the platelet issue. Edited July 3, 2013 by LuvEarsies Quote Bernadette with Jak, Horizon, Kota, Barnaby, Madison, Earl, Tiggy, Finney, Tommy, Woody, Tyler and Lincoln all at the bridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackandgrey Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Just as a matter of interest which doesn't likely help you, Amicar has been given pre dental to children with VonWillebrands ( a clotting disorder) for years. Still I would want to know why his platelets are low too. Doing the tick panel may be the way to start anyway Kerry. I'm sorry this all so complicated for you right now. Quote Susan, Jessie and Jordy NORTHERN SKY GREYHOUND ADOPTION ASSOCIATION Jack, in my heart forever March 1999-Nov 21, 2008 My Dancing Queen Jilly with me always and forever Aug 12, 2003-Oct 15, 2010 Joshy I will love you always Aug 1, 2004-Feb 22,2013 Jonah my sweetheart May 2000 - Jan 2015 " You will never need to be alone again. I promise this. As your dog, I will sing this promise to you, and whisper it to you at night, every night, with my breath." Stanley Coren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Did an outside lab do the platelet count? There's a big difference between finding giant platelets (which are NOT young forms) and platelet precursors (the young forms) in a blood smear. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Dr. Couto recommends all greyhounds be given Amicar pre surgically. I thought it was am amino acid? It's Amicar aka Aminocarproic acid.http://cvm.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/bloodBank/wellness/newsletters/2009/ghwpNewsletterSummer2009.pdf I just picked up 30 tablets at Walgreens--$76 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlinsMum Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 So I decided to postpone the dental and get his platelets back to normal first. He is on doxy starting tonight. We will re-test in 7 days, although of course it's likely he'll have to be on doxy longer than that. All of your answers helped me so much. I was able to really read up on aminocaproic acid, for starters, and I feel so much more educated now. I have been reading Dr. Couto's team' studies on the subject, and I also found that I was able to order Amicar from Walgreens (tablet form) for $74 - which is way better than $186!! And they can get it for me in 1 business day. After reading your comments and experiences and reading more information online, I have decided that I will be putting the hounds on Amicar for any future surgery they require. Thanks again so much! Quote Kerry with Lupin in beautiful coastal Maine. Missing Pippin, my best friend and sweet little heart-healer 2013-2023 Also missing the best wizard in the world, Merlin, and my sweet 80lb limpet, Sagan, every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 :-)!!! Let's hope the doxy does the trick for you :-). Fwiw-I always have Amicar in my drug draw (yes, I have a doggie drug draw)-if you ever need Amicar in a pinch and for whatever reason you can't locate any just give me a call :-) In the meantime-brush, brush and brush those toofiers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4My2Greys Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Keeping my fingers crossed that the Doxy does the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Ah, glad to see an update! Fingers crossed! Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlinsMum Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 Thank you! I was alarmed and had a mini freakier tonight when I have him the Doxy, as the vet's instructions on the label said to give 4 (100mg) pills wrapped in food every 24 hours. Presumably, since a typical range for dosing (as I understand it) is between 5mg and 10mg per kg, and Sagan is 85lbs (=40kg), he was given the higher-end dosage. Giving him 4 pills at once in Pill Pockets was super stressful for me since, unlike Merlin, Sagan is unused to being given pills and tends to "clamp down" whenever I ask him to open his mouth. I freaked out because the first time I gave him 2 capsules in one Pill Pocket and although I meant to put it at the back of his throat, somehow he clamped down on it and we heard a crunch! I hope he's going to be alright My vet was very insistent that the capsule be wrapped and swallowed properly so that it reaches the stomach before dissolving... which is why I bought the Pill Pockets (which I'd never used before). As I recall, it has something to do with an increased risk of esophageal cancer in dogs that chewed it or something...? I didn't see any powder "spillage" in his mouth when I opened it after I heard the crunch. Let's hope I didn't do any damage The thought of repeating the process for the next 24 capsules fills me with anxiety. I also find it weird that I have to give him 4 capsules at once. Why not 2 capsules twice a day? Does it target the problem faster if it's given all at once, who knows. This is when I wish I'd gone to vet school. If I call my vet to check they might fire me I feel like I pester them as it is... Quote Kerry with Lupin in beautiful coastal Maine. Missing Pippin, my best friend and sweet little heart-healer 2013-2023 Also missing the best wizard in the world, Merlin, and my sweet 80lb limpet, Sagan, every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Hey, you pay your vet bills, you get to ask question! I don't know the answer to that one, tho -- I'm more familiar with dosing 2x/day. tbhounds might have some insight. Not likely to risk problems from one incident. If you're concerned, you could give him a couple of treats to make sure a little more swallowing goes on to wash everything down. I hate to admit it , but I have one dog who is not fond of being pilled -- Gidget. Not long ago, I also had to give her Tylan powder. So I got some canned food, scooped out enough for 1 big meatball (to hold the powder) and 1 small meatball. Prepared both meatballs. Offered the big one -- GULP! -- and then the small one -- 2nd GULP! Wouldn't work with a more suspicious dog but maybe worth a try. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinw Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 This is how they get dogs to take meds at FBM...they put a bit of canned cat food on their hand (yuck) and mix the pills in as good as possible. Then they throw the mixture on the floor. What dog could resist eating stuff from the floor? Work with all of my dogs except Iker, who is afraid of food on the floor. Fingers crossed for Sagan. Quote Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysmom Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Use distraction and momentum! Mine love to eat pill pockets as treats, so I give them a small bite of one (about a 1/4 of a pocket), then do it again, then give the one with the pill, then RIGHT AWAY offer the next small piece. They usually just swallow the pill one down without chewing so they can get to the next one. If you need to, keep putting in empty bites in between the pill-filled ones. Pilling is no fun at all, but I also have a technique for it. While standing on their right side, grab the top of their mouth/face on the left side, not the bottom, with left hand. Try not to bend their head back too far. If you sort of press their lips into their teeth, they will automatically open their mouth. Pry it open a bit more and stuff the pill down, poking it as far back as you can (hopefully beyond the "bend" in their throat). If you get it far enough, it will just go down the rest of the way. You may need to gently hold his mouth closed, BLOW gently into his face a couple times (this makes them swallow reflexively when they blink), and gently rub their throat. I can pill Cash in about 3 seconds this way. Lilly is harder because she isn't as used to it, but it still works. I'd also call the vet and ask if you can do 2 pills twice a day. That's weird. Quote Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora) siggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJNg Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I usually use doxycycline at 5-10 mg/kg twice daily, but it can also be dosed at 10 mg/kg once daily. I'm not sure if there's much difference between the different protocols. I'd ask your vet if it's ok to just give 2 capsules twice daily. The esophageal concerns with doxycycline is mainly just irritation if the pill/contents don't go down and remain in contact with the esophageal lining for an extended period. It's really more of an issue with cats, and as long as he ate/drank after the pill, he should be fine. I always just instruct owners to make sure the doxy is followed with food or water. Quote Jennifer & Willow (Wilma Waggle), Wiki (Wiki Hard Ten), Carter (Let's Get It On), Ollie (whippet), Gracie (whippet x), & Terra (whippet) + Just Saying + Just Alice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlinsMum Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 I usually use doxycycline at 5-10 mg/kg twice daily, but it can also be dosed at 10 mg/kg once daily. I'm not sure if there's much difference between the different protocols. I'd ask your vet if it's ok to just give 2 capsules twice daily. The esophageal concerns with doxycycline is mainly just irritation if the pill/contents don't go down and remain in contact with the esophageal lining for an extended period. It's really more of an issue with cats, and as long as he ate/drank after the pill, he should be fine. I always just instruct owners to make sure the doxy is followed with food or water. Thank you so much. This really helps to assuage my concerns. Thanks to everyone who has offered tips to better administer pills to an unwilling patient A lot of great suggestions here - I appreciate it! I feel as though I have lots of ideas and options now. Quote Kerry with Lupin in beautiful coastal Maine. Missing Pippin, my best friend and sweet little heart-healer 2013-2023 Also missing the best wizard in the world, Merlin, and my sweet 80lb limpet, Sagan, every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_rooly Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Just following along, and wanted to chime in and say that Sagan is such a lucky (and gorgeous) hound! I hope the pilling gets easier and less stressful (especially for you!) with each time Quote every day a tiny adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philospher77 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Just some more tips: when I did pill pockets, I would get the capsule size, and that would hold generally two tablets. So if you need to get four tablets into Sagan, I would do 2 pill pockets. Also, I now make homemade pill pockets (liverwurst, cream cheese, and pulverized shredded wheat mixed to a playdough consistency), which my two love a lot more than the commercial version. Quote My blog about helping Katie learn to be a more normal dog: http://katies-journey-philospher77.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllenEveBaz Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Keeping all paws crossed here for Mr. Sagan. Quote Ellen, with brindle Milo and the blonde ballerina, Gelsey remembering Eve, Baz, Scout, Romie, Nutmeg, and Jeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeh2o Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Kerry, I just remembered that I have Dr Couto's slides from his presentation in Solvang this past February. Here is a copy of the text from one of his slides on Amicar. I recall he said they use it for all dentals where there will be extractions. If you want a copy of the slides, let me know and I'll email them to you. Aminocaproic Acid•Standard of care for any “big” Greyhound surgery at OSU•also after extractions•500-1,000 mg 3 times a day for 5 days (Amicar®)•MAKE SURE YOUR VETS KNOW ABOUT THIS!!•TRASYLOL in Canada Quote Sunsands Doodles: Doodles aka Claire, Bella Run Softly: Softy aka Bowie (the Diamond Dog) Missing my beautiful boy Sunsands Carl 2.25.2003 - 4.1.2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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