Ancestors To Avoid?

[mychip1]

Our EZ is a Commander's grandson...he is eleven and had one soft tissue cancer a few years ago, but otherwise has done OK. I think with the numbers of offspring from Commander, it's easy to see a lot of things crop up just because of sheer numbers.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Wow, I knew I shouldn't have read this thread, my Bella is Commander doggy

[joejoesmom]

But, personally, I really do hope they figure out if there is a genetic marker, and what it is, because I see that as one step closer to understanding how to beat it - or a minimum to improve the treatment options.

 

Part of the long process of research is searching not just for markers in dogs but also for crossovers into human medicine. The research is actually looking into human disease, mapping dogs first because it's easier (fewer variables I think) & then trying to link back to humans. In the case of osteo, children.

 

This is exactly what is going on between OSU's Greyhound Health and Wellness Program and Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus. Greyhound osteo is apparently remarkably similar to childhood osteo. So OSU is collecting samples from osteo greys AND healthy greys. The combined team is working on mapping genomes to look for possible genetic markers indicating a predisposition to osteo. I believe the (very) long term goal would be not just identifying greyhounds and children who are at greater risk, but working on gene-based treatments and/or preventatives. Of course this is a very long way off.

 

In addition to this work, Dr. Shelley Lake is collecting statistics on greyhounds and cancer. She wants to know about any greyhound who has developed cancer, the lineage of the greyhound (provide the racing name and she looks up the lineage), and the type and location of the cancer. She is still in the early stages. She is active in Circle of Grey but also is a member here. Unfortunately, I don't remember her screen name. I'm sure she would love to hear from any of you who have lost a grey to any type of cancer.

 

I hesitate to even repeat this, because it is such early stages in her research: She did say that it appears that the HB's Commander line seems to have more osteo than others. I caution you though that this is early in the statistics and I don't think she has factored all factors into the research. Not that it is statistically significant but HB's Commander is my Joe's (15 month osteo survivor) great grandsire. HB's Commander was quite prolific and sired 3035 pups. He died at age 8 of an aneurism. His son Molotov (Joe's grandfather) sired 7722 pups. Molotov's son, Craigie Whistler, sired 5428 pups -- one of them is my Joe. So from just one line of one of HB's Commanders 3035 progeny, there have been over 13000 puppies. MIndboggling!

 

If I can find info on contacting Dr. Lake I will post it here.

 

Jane

 

Edited to add: Dr. Lake's greytalk name is handpicked. She asks that you go to her profile and click on the send email to handpicked link. In the email, include the above requested info.

 

Not sure if this will work, but I will try to put a link to her profile page here:

 

My link

 

And this might work. If so, here is a link to send her an email:

 

Dr. Lake email

 

Well you have just sent everyone scrambling. There will be way over 100,000 dogs with Commander in their pedigree and I am probably on the low side with my guess.

 

So osteo has just become prevalent in greyhounds in the last 20 years?

 

Ugh, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it. See my post to Mary about the prevalence of HB's Commander. I did not mean to imply that osteo is a new disease in greyhounds. However, availability of good quality genetic material is an issue for dogs that have gotten osteo in the past. Dr. Lake's study is just an attempt to determine if there are particular genetic lines that deserve further study (for example, does it make sense to examine the genome of one line before another in hopes of finding genetic commonalities that might point to a possible osteo marker). Since the researchers feel that there are multiple reasons a dog might develop bone cancer, and the goal is to find any specific GENETIC reasons; it makes sense to decode the genetic material of a dog that might have these genetic markers, versus a dog that got osteo because of other possibly non-genetic reasons. This would reduce the number of dogs that need to have their genome decoded in hopes of finding a marker. I hope this makes sense.

 

Jane

 

Edited to add: If another "Joe" came to me, with the exact same parents -- I would jump to adopt him. He is the light of my life. I wouldn't worry if he had Commander all over his lineage. After all, they haven't even proven if there IS a genetic component to bone cancer -- much less what lines might be more susceptible to it.

Edited November 14, 2011 by joejoesmom

[maryz]

Oh no. I just realized HB's Commander is Sherri's great-grandsire on both sides. I will just focus on the fact that the studies are not conclusive by any means and that I am lucky beyond words to

have her in my life.

 

I really wouldn't worry unduly. I actually wonder what percentage of currently living dogs have HB's Commander in their blood lines. Based on Joe's father alone siring over 5000 puppies, I would think HB's Commander is present in the lineage of a huge percentage of current greys. I am not up to the task of trying to figure this out. Although Joe developed bone cancer at 7 years of age, I believe his father is still alive and his grandfather lived to age 12 (no cause of death listed). The HB's Commander prevalence that Shelley mentioned was based on preliminary data collection (I believe it is just at the point that she noticed a lot of HB's Commander in the osteo dogs). I don't know that she has ruled out that this may just be because HB's Commander is so prolific. Really, unless she can track down the cause of death in all retired racing greyhounds, the data is going to be somewhat flawed. She is just hoping that she can collect enough to see some trends.

 

HB's Commander is Sherri's great grandsire on both maternal sides. However, her grandsire, Gable Dodge, I believe, died of osteo of the shoulder at age 11. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

He had over 10,000 offspring. Sherri's sire, Stan's Boy Flyer, died at age 7, from what I have never been able to determine.

[dmdsmoxie]

You will drive yourself crazy with this.

 

Just sit back, relax and enjoy your pups.

[greysmom]

Yes, Dick!

 

Afterall, I have cancer in both sides of MY parentage, yet I don't worry about contracting cancer any more than someone else, I suppose.

 

Relatedly, I do hope they figure out a genetic component, if only for the fact that targeted gene therapy has become a possibility for treatment in the near future - at least with humans with certain types of cancers.

[Hubcitypam]

There will be way over 100,000 dogs with Commander in their pedigree and I am probably on the low side with my guess.

Between HBs Commander, Molotov and Cragie Whistler it'd hard to spit in a room (as my dad would say) without hitting a dog with HBs Commander in its lineage. He was grandsire to both Harley and Buck and great grandsire to Rex. None of them had osteo.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Hubcitypam

[Guest KennelMom]

Reading this thread makes me hope they never do find a link between a sire/dam and osteo, if there is one...will those dogs sit and wait alongside the big, black males and the cat zappers? The fact is, we *can't* control what breedings take place, we can only find homes and give homes to the ones that do.

 

I know what your point is, but I think it will be better to know than to not know. With identification, the door opens for preventative actions, better screening or better treatment options.

 

Will those dogs wait longer? I don't know, since it's all hypothetical at this point.

 

But, personally, I really do hope they figure out if there is a genetic marker, and what it is, because I see that as one step closer to understanding how to beat it - or a minimum to improve the treatment options.

 

My comment was made to give people pause over what might happen if their wish to know if a dog has 'cancer gene' could be definitively answered. And, as I predicted, people in this thread are already freaking out over unsubstantiated "research" b/c their dog (like MANY thousands of others are related to HB Commander). Yes, I absolutely think if the docs can say "X dog" carried some sort of osteo gene, people will steer clear of them....people have *stated so* in this thread. You'll have a pocket of soft-hearts like you do now for the seniors or the broodies who will make adopting the "cancer dogs" their mission in life, but I think general adopters will avoid them. And those dogs'll sit and wait b/c people won't want the heartbreak of losing a dog to osteo...only to lose sight of the fact that they'll lose their dog to *something* one day.

 

I DO hope research can give us some answers and better treatments...but I think it will come at a heavy price - meaning, a whole new cast of "unadoptable" dogs.

[maryz]

I did "freak out" a little when I read this thread, but if I had known about this before adopting Sherri, I still would have adopted her. She is the perfect dog for us and I would not hesitate to adopt

any dog because of their pedigree. I don't know the backgrounds of my cats either, all of them having lived as strays before I took them in. One passed from a vaccine-related fibrosarcoma at the

age of 7. Would I still have adopted him if I had known this would happen? Absolutely-it's the quality of life that is more important, not the quantity.

[sweetdogs]

I DO hope research can give us some answers and better treatments...but I think it will come at a heavy price - meaning, a whole new cast of "unadoptable" dogs.

 

This is one of my worries too but I think it'll take a really long time before they isolate the ancestor(s). I think they're working on the genes - maybe someone else knows if they're actually interested in the particular dog. Why would the researchers care about HB's Commander or any other dog? They're looking for patterns to develop treatments for those in the here & now.

 

Is there some DNA somewhere to test of some of these prolific sires of the past? Because as Dick said, osteo isn't a recent development in the breed.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

When I originally posed the question about your decision to adopt a greyhound to be modified by cancer in a certain line, I can honestly say I didn't think there would be a single person that said yes. It is so terribly sad to me that people would pass up a certain hound because of what "could" be. I guess I am projecting on others, but I see the hound that has been returned more desirable than the other hounds. I see the special needs hound as no different than any other hound. How would you feel if you denied adopting a hound because its line throws more cancer than other hounds and you found out the hound died in the kennel waiting for its forever home? It is just so unbelievably selfish to pass up a hound because if might have a higher chance of cancer. If you are going to decide not to adopt on the basis of perceived chance of cancer, why not adopt only the hounds that match your furnature? Unbelievable...

[IndyandHollyluv]

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Just a few words of hope and encouragement ... to date none of my hounds have rec'd the osteo dx.

 

Indy and Holly were sired by Trojan Episode. I lost Indy to nasal cancer at 12+. Indy's half-sister, Holly, is now pushing 13. She was dx'd with PLN in July so I imagine I will lose her to kidney failure. I know nothing about their momma's.

 

I also adopted two senior boys last year (can't recall their sire at the moment; will have to check Greyhound Data). Both are former racers. One was a resident blood bank donor and is now 10-1/2+. The other was 11-1/2 at the time of adoption; he will be 13 in a few weeks. ETA: I really knew very little about either dog's medical history at the time of adoption.

 

Perhaps it's just luck of the draw? I will say (as mentioned in a few threads) that my hounds are not overweight and while I don't feed raw, I don't feed them sweets or junk food. Don't know how much that factors into the equation. Also plenty of exercise and an annual dental were a big part of life (particularly for Indy and Holly who were young when I adopted them).

 

Not sure how much credit I can take for their longevity, but I am grateful that they all made it to "old age."

Edited November 14, 2011 by IndyandHollyluv

[Guest Yankeegreyhound]

When I originally posed the question about your decision to adopt a greyhound to be modified by cancer in a certain line, I can honestly say I didn't think there would be a single person that said yes. It is so terribly sad to me that people would pass up a certain hound because of what "could" be. I guess I am projecting on others, but I see the hound that has been returned more desirable than the other hounds. I see the special needs hound as no different than any other hound. How would you feel if you denied adopting a hound because its line throws more cancer than other hounds and you found out the hound died in the kennel waiting for its forever home? It is just so unbelievably selfish to pass up a hound because if might have a higher chance of cancer. If you are going to decide not to adopt on the basis of perceived chance of cancer, why not adopt only the hounds that match your furnature? Unbelievable...

 

Just to defend myself, I have a lot of raw emotion going on right now. This is my first greyhound to have osteo and my first greyhound who I will have to let go. I am living day to day with her and it's very hard for me right now. I will not research the history of all the dogs in the pedigree of every single dog I see or may adopt but if I should happen to notice that the sire is the same sire as my Hailey, I would have to pass. I know it could happen regardless. I know they will not live forever but right now it just hurts. I would also like to add, hindsight being 20/20, if I could go back and do things over, I wouldn't. I would still adopt my Hailey. I wouldn't change a thing.

[Batmom]

But why focus on the sire? There's the dam, the dam's sire, the location where the dog was raised .......

 

I can understand having some strong emotions in your (Yankeegreyhound's) position, tho.

 

 

 

Genetics is usually a lot more complicated than some folks in this thread are feeling. It isn't terribly likely that one dog will be responsible for all the cases of osteosarcoma (or early kidney disease, or susceptibility to babesiosis, or .....) in a breed. Most times, you need contributions from both parents to open up the possibility of a problem, and there's almost always significant further complexity beyond that.

[robinw]

You will drive yourself crazy with this.

 

Just sit back, relax and enjoy your pups.

I couldn't agree more. What a shame it would be if a dog wasn't adopted because there was osteo in his background. While I'm sure there are genetic components, I wouldn't be surprised if there are other factors that increase the chances of getting suck. Who knows, there may have been treatment for something that compromised the immune system, environment exposure to something; who knows? Nobody knows for sure.

 

I lost Phene to osteo and I hate to think that I would have lost out on adopting this wonderful, gentle, loving soul because there may have been osteo in his background. Charlie's Dad's Charlie has the same dad, and if I had known what happened to Charlie when I adopted Phene, it wouldn't have mattered. It's a crap shoot. I think there are some things that people outside of the veterinary profession/research are better off not knowing.

Edited November 14, 2011 by robinw

[greyhoundlady]

I adopt my greyhounds based on my heart and soul. I have lost 3 to osteo, 5 to cancer, all of the ones I lost to cancer were in double digits (SugarBear - osteo - age 14.5; TigerPower - osteo - 10-1/2). I lost my first, Runner, just before he turned 8 to a massive heart attack so as Dick says, we will lose them to something sometime.

 

Whether we lose one to osteo, or any other means, all losses are painful.

 

I may be missing something here, or I am just a little slow this morning, but I have never looked at one of my hound's pedigrees as a deciding factor in adopting. But then, I don't look at my pedigree as anything important either, sort of like being able to join DAR and not caring.

 

 

Maybe I am not the typical adopter. I did not care who was who in any of my hound's pedigrees, I learned about their ancestors once they joined me. I had no idea Gremlin had an "impeccable pedigree" nor did I care, I knew she was 11, had 48 pups and needed a couch.

 

I now sit, in my insecurity, wondering if I am doing this all wrong. Then I look around me at the hounds lying on the beds around the room, and think, nah, this is perfect for me. I do not bring in a hound with the thoughts of losing them, I bring one in for the joy of sharing our journeys, for however long it may be, each one brings me a gift and teaches me a lesson. I have become a better person for the lessons they teach me.

 

 

That was so nicely put and I agree completely. I lost my female greyhound this past January to pericardial effusion and just lost my male this past September to osteo. My heart broke twice in one year - but I recently rescued another grey and he is putting my heart all back together again. I wouldn't choose a dog based on his medical line - I don't even know how to check that - I go with the joy we can share for however long we can do so. For me, it is a gift to have them in my life.

[Jenbo]

For me, it is a gift to have them in my life.

 

[Charlies_Dad]

Nobody should worry about research at this time as it is all too preliminary. Jane's comments are just that comments only so don't take them to heart, she is only contributing to the thread so please don't get all up in arms over it either way. Charlie does not have HB Commander in his lineage and yet he got Osteo when he was 7 as well. The data being collected and studies on-going will hopefully some day lead us to a 'cure' but it is likely a long way off no matter the type of cancer. Perhaps some day...

 

I do believe the OP never meant for this post to get too personal nor cause any uproar.

[Devotion]

I'm not about to waste a minute of time worrying about something that may or may not happen.

I have had osteo dogs. I have dogs who died from other cancers and illnesses.

 

Life is too short to worry....

 

I am enjoying the journey with each of mine.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Devotion

[joejoesmom]

Nobody should worry about research at this time as it is all too preliminary. Jane's comments are just that comments only so don't take them to heart, she is only contributing to the thread so please don't get all up in arms over it either way. Charlie does not have HB Commander in his lineage and yet he got Osteo when he was 7 as well. The data being collected and studies on-going will hopefully some day lead us to a 'cure' but it is likely a long way off no matter the type of cancer. Perhaps some day...

 

I do believe the OP never meant for this post to get too personal nor cause any uproar.

 

Thank you for defending me Kyle. I wish I had never posted what Dr. Lake told me about her data collection. I was tired, feeling a bit down because Joe coughed a bit that night (and we all know where my mind was), and simply wasn't thinking how badly people would take my comment.

 

Dr. Lake's data collection is just that. She is collecting data in hopes of being able to provide some direction as to which dogs might yield any information if their genome was decoded. They are looking specifically for any possible genetic link to cancer. No one is saying that most (or even any) cancer in greyhounds (including osteo) has a genetic link; much less that if there were a marker in the genetic code in a dog who gets cancer that this would mean that dogs from this dogs specific grandsire will automatically get that specific cancer. This is just a possibility --for example, some breast cancers (definitely not all) in humans appear more often in women with certain genetic markers. This may lead to more effective treatments. Since we can control breeding in greyhounds, if there are certain genetic markers, perhaps (and just perhaps) we could alter who gets bred in hopes of improving the longevity and health of the greyhound breed.

 

I was simply responding to the OP who asked:

 

"I'm curious if any of you have seen any studies or research about ancestry being linked to the occurence of osteocarcoma. I know the folks at OSU have done lots of wonderful research to help prevent and treat the horrible disease and I may check their website when I have some extra time. Maybe some of our veterinary professionals will weigh in as to whether this is possible. I would imagine if we had a good idea of a hereditary problem, the breeding community would try to avoid passing it on."

 

In retrospect, I definitely should have left out Dr. Lake's comment about Commander. I personally would never hesitate to adopt a dog with Commander in the bloodline. Given how prolific his bloodline is, it might be incredibly difficult to find a dog who would fit into my family who does not have Commander in their background. Likewise, I would not seek out a dog who has Dutch Bahama in their background, as much as I love the extra thick eyeliner many of them have. First and foremost is finding a dog who I can love and who loves me in return, who also fits into my existing family.

 

Lastly, Joe has his 3 month checkup at OSU tomorrow. He will get a chest x-ray. I will actually be seeing Dr. Couto as my normal oncologist (who works for him) is off clinic for a few weeks. Joe has not coughed again, since those two little coughs. It was more of a throat clearing than a deep cough, so I am hoping for a clean x-ray.

[Guest PhillyPups]

Just to throw another wrench in the train of thought processes here, The Queen, BarbieJade was a HB's Commander daughter, direct descendent of HB Commander (HB's Commander x Keota Jade) she is one of my angels that I did NOT lose to cancer, and I lost her just before her 14th birthday, she had a good long life.

[NeylasMom]

When I originally posed the question about your decision to adopt a greyhound to be modified by cancer in a certain line, I can honestly say I didn't think there would be a single person that said yes. It is so terribly sad to me that people would pass up a certain hound because of what "could" be. I guess I am projecting on others, but I see the hound that has been returned more desirable than the other hounds. I see the special needs hound as no different than any other hound. How would you feel if you denied adopting a hound because its line throws more cancer than other hounds and you found out the hound died in the kennel waiting for its forever home? It is just so unbelievably selfish to pass up a hound because if might have a higher chance of cancer. If you are going to decide not to adopt on the basis of perceived chance of cancer, why not adopt only the hounds that match your furnature? Unbelievable...

Perhaps some of us have said that we might not choose a dog if we knew it was heavily predisposed to getting bone cancer (which is what we were talking about, not a "perceived chance" since every single one of our dogs have at least a real chance without any further genetic knowledge) because we're still raw from the recent loss of a beloved dog to that disease, did you consider that?

 

I have to wonder if you've ever lost a dog to osteo. It's hard for me to imagine that someone who's gone through the brutal loss of a dog to that disease would compare wanting to avoid it to choosing a dog to match your furniture. That is unbelievable.

 

And let's also be realistic for a moment. There are many more greyhounds in need of homes than there are homes so who cares what my personal motivations are for adopting a dog as long as I am committed to providing a loving home where the dogs needs are met. When dogs are sitting around dying in kennels only because they might get osteo, then you can get on your high horse and start accusing people of being selfish.

Edited November 15, 2011 by NeylasMom

[4My2Greys]

 

I have to wonder if you've ever lost a dog to osteo. It's hard for me to imagine that someone who's gone through the brutal loss of a dog to that disease would compare wanting to avoid it to choosing a dog to match your furniture. That is unbelievable.

 

And let's also be realistic for a moment. There are many more greyhounds in need of homes than there are homes so who cares what my personal motivations are for adopting a dog as long as I am committed to providing a loving home where the dogs needs are met. When dogs are sitting around dying in kennels only because they might get osteo, then you can get on your high horse and start accusing people of being selfish.

 

That has been exactly my same thought too to everyone who has basically criticized those who said they might let something like this influence their decision when adopting. Who am I to judge a person for what they feel they can or are willing to handle with regard to this. And I believe time and circumstances change and what a person says they will do or not do now can very well change. That is one reason I said I hope I would never base an adoption on these reasons, but then again I've never gone through losing one from osteo either.

[Batmom]

I can understand that folks who have recently lost (or currently have) a sick dog having strong feelings on the subject.

 

Otherwise, I feel as Greyt_dog_lover does. I adopt dogs because I like dogs and there are lots who need homes. Old, young, healthy, not so healthy ... They need homes. There are certainly some illnesses that my household isn't well equipped to handle, but when adopting I base my decision only on the current state of the dog and not the "what if's." Otherwise ... well, if I wanted a health guarantee, I'd buy from a breeder rather than adopt.

 

 

And, by the way, I've lost dogs to incurable illnesses, including those with no chance of cure and no real treatment at all. If greyhounds had an overwhelmingly high incidence of those diseases, I'd still be adopting them.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Batmom

[TwiggysMom]

I've not lost one to osteo yet, but I am in the process of doing so (but fighting it like the dickens). If I had the chance to adopt one of Twiggy's littermates, I would do so in a minute. Well, truthfully I'd probably try to wait until she's out of chemo at least.

 

Is there a hereditary component? I think there probably is. However, that only predicts likelihood, not certainty; and the lack of a hereditary link doesn't preclude disease. Therefore, I wouldn't favor or disfavor a dog based on that.

 

Now, I would favor a particular dog based on relation to a dog that I loved; Twiggy obviously, but also some of my favorite fosters. If I met an available dog from the My Rooster line, I would definitely lean that direction as I have had two amazing fosters related to him (one of them died from osteo; her nephew, also my foster, is still alive and well).

 

I understand not wanting to relive the pain, (and I'm not trying to say what factors others should consider) but where there's love and pets, there is always going to be pain; it is just a matter of the packaging it is delivered in at the end.