Steak's Seizures

[Burpdog]

Sending lots of prayers.

 

I have not read all the posts. Have you tried acupuncture which is known to help seizures? Has he had a tick panel?

 

I wish I could fix it for him (and you)

[fsugrad]

Sending tons of prayers and good thoughts to Steak and his family.

[Guest Tes623]

If you are at the office on Trinity Mills, I can understand about the sticker shock. I brought Scarlett there once for an echo because they had a visiting cardiologist from A & M that goes there once a month. I could not believe that they charged me $2500 for an echo and the year before in Michigan I had paid $300. That taught me to always get an estimate first.

 

You are doing the best you can for you boy, hugs to you and Steak.

[Guest cristaron]

Definitely no need to feel like crud Beth.

Nine times out of ten, they do all these expensive tests, find nothing

wrong and classify it as idiopathic epilepsy and you're in the poor house.

Go with the different drugs. You might have to switch the doses around

quite a bit to find what works for him, but it will pay off in the end.

 

What a sweet boy he is - he looks just like my boy Ron.

[kudzu]

We are at the neuro and they are wanting to do so much. Problem is I can't afford everything. They just quoted me $3000. That would be an MRI and CT and tick panel. The er vet was $800 last night. Im sitting here in tears as I don't want to compromise his care based on money. I'm thinking we get the tick panel and go from there? They want to keep him on the zonisamide and add in keppra. Does that sound right?

It sounds typical for a neuro vet. Yes, the results might help & they likely cannot make a definitive diagnosis without one. However, many, many people either cannot afford, will not put their dogs through or for other personal reasons simply will not do such testing. As one who has gone through the neuro route with one dog I will say that I think they mean well but a lot of us end up dumping many K's on testing that only rules some things out yet gives us no real answers. It is strictly my personal opinion but I believe for most people the treatment ends up the same regardless of the testing done.

 

You do not need to feel bad, guilty, etc for declining the advanced testing. Ask what will be gained from the results of the tests & what difference it will make in Steaks treatment, short term & long term. In your position I would ask for conservative treatment, a medical plan & drug protocol aimed at controlling the seizures now & decide later what testing if any you will do. The one thing I might spring for is the tick panel if you can afford it. Ask what was tested for before & if anything was left off previously, make sure it is included this time.

 

Sending prayers for all of you. This is a very, very difficult situation for all of you. My sister had a dog with epilepsy from puppyhood & though he lived to be a senior they had a lot of rough patches. I witnessed his cluster seizures & was the driver to/from e-vets on a couple occasions. It's heartbreaking. But they did find a protocol that minimized his seizures & he was an active, happy, fun loving guy. If you can afford to, emotionally & financially, don't give up on Steak yet. But don't feel you must choose today whether or not to do the tests. Tell them to get the seizures under control & then work on what diagnostics are needed later. It is not only OK to say that but sometimes in the dog's best interest.

 

Hang in there. I've been there a few times. I, my sister & the dogs all lived to tell the tale.

[NeylasMom]

The one thing I might spring for is the tick panel if you can afford it. Ask what was tested for before & if anything was left off previously, make sure it is included this time.

I was on my phone earlier so couldn't type much, but this would be my suggestion too if you decide to pursue anything beyond meds. And I would suggest asking htem to run it with MSU, not another lab. The full panel will run you about $150, plus what the vet charges you for the blood draw and shipping. I would hope given all of the cash that you've dropped that they'd do the blood draw without charging you though.

[rallyp]

Beth, I just wanted to say that I'm impressed by your strength in this situation. Continuing good thoughts from my way.

[racindog]

We are at the neuro and they are wanting to do so much. Problem is I can't afford everything. They just quoted me $3000. That would be an MRI and CT and tick panel. The er vet was $800 last night. Im sitting here in tears as I don't want to compromise his care based on money. I'm thinking we get the tick panel and go from there? They want to keep him on the zonisamide and add in keppra. Does that sound right?

It sounds typical for a neuro vet. Yes, the results might help & they likely cannot make a definitive diagnosis without one. However, many, many people either cannot afford, will not put their dogs through or for other personal reasons simply will not do such testing. As one who has gone through the neuro route with one dog I will say that I think they mean well but a lot of us end up dumping many K's on testing that only rules some things out yet gives us no real answers. It is strictly my personal opinion but I believe for most people the treatment ends up the same regardless of the testing done.

 

You do not need to feel bad, guilty, etc for declining the advanced testing. Ask what will be gained from the results of the tests & what difference it will make in Steaks treatment, short term & long term. In your position I would ask for conservative treatment, a medical plan & drug protocol aimed at controlling the seizures now & decide later what testing if any you will do. The one thing I might spring for is the tick panel if you can afford it. Ask what was tested for before & if anything was left off previously, make sure it is included this time.

 

Sending prayers for all of you. This is a very, very difficult situation for all of you. My sister had a dog with epilepsy from puppyhood & though he lived to be a senior they had a lot of rough patches. I witnessed his cluster seizures & was the driver to/from e-vets on a couple occasions. It's heartbreaking. But they did find a protocol that minimized his seizures & he was an active, happy, fun loving guy. If you can afford to, emotionally & financially, don't give up on Steak yet. But don't feel you must choose today whether or not to do the tests. Tell them to get the seizures under control & then work on what diagnostics are needed later. It is not only OK to say that but sometimes in the dog's best interest.

 

Hang in there. I've been there a few times. I, my sister & the dogs all lived to tell the tale.

 

Thats what I think too but I couldn't say it as well as you did so excuse me but ditto!

[greypuppyluv]

The pheno had bad side effects. He had major behavioral changes. The keppra isn't even half as expensive as the zoni.

 

I hate being here. The room next door is having a hard time and I can hear them crying too

 

I just told them no to the MRI and said I wanted to just go with meds. Now I feel like crud.

If he doesn't respond well to Pheno, I can see why they are going with Keppra instead. If the Keppra and Zoni still don't control the seizures, you might have to add Pheno (or KBr), then you can wean off them later. But hopefully the Keppra + Zoni combo will work.

 

Don't feel like crud! Don't let them pressure you into expensive testing. Sometimes, with all this technology nowadays, I think vets get caught up in expensive testing and diagnostics. Sometimes an "old school" approach (changing meds combos) is all you really need.

 

Sophie's big time cluster last week is a good example. Some people were asking why I didn't bring her to the e-vet, or why I didn't run more tests. Some neuros would have insisted on more MRI's, etc. What she needed was enough medication to overcome the seizures trying to get through, and we have plenty of meds right here at home. I drugged the crap out of her. This week she is totally fine, you would never know how bad she was last week. Thankfully Sophie's neuro is more "old school", he said she didn't need to come in, adding extra meds would work, and it did. Our regular vet probably would have insisted she be admitted and run all sorts of tests (that's why I didn't call them ).

 

I would only worry about a brain tumor or other cause if the seizures kept getting worse despite increased medication. But the meds levels Steak is on are relatively low in the grand scheme of things, and he was only on one drug at a time really, which makes me think he just needs a different meds combo.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

Ah, I didn't realize Steak had difficulty with the pheno (sorry for my last reply.....I was in a hurry to get to work and it didn't sound all that put together). I agree with Lindsay.....please don't feel like crud! We never did an MRI on Phaelin and he was at the upper end agewise when his seizures started. We just put him on AE drugs and went from there. It took quite awhile to get to a drug combo where he wouldn't seize every 17 days (he's now at 1-2 months), but it just takes a lot of patience and persistence.

 

I think we as a society want to "fix" dogs when they have something medically wrong with them. We want to know exactly what's wrong so we can fix the problem. The thing is, with dogs that have seizures, many times there just isn't an answer as to why they have them. You can spend thousands of dollars looking for a cause and never find one. It doesn't make you a bad doggie parent if you don't spend the money on tests. You have to come to a point when you say, "Ok, we don't know what's causing this, but we have to shift gears and just try to find something that helps reduce/eliminate the seizures". That point is different for everyone.....but you'll get there.

[kamsmom]

Alright. We are at home and I am running to Costco for meds. They gave him another Valium injection before leaving just for my "comfort". I asked for what we could do conservatively now.

So, we are now on keppra 750mg three times a day and zonisamide 300 mg two times a day. We are also adding in doxy for one month just to cover all bases. Doxy is 200 mg twice per day.

 

The vet also said as many of you have that if he seizes to go ahead and give him a full dose of both the keppra and zonisamide.

 

Thanks everyone. I'm off to get meds and maybe some liquor for me and then a nap.

[Guest vahoundlover]

Beth, no doubting yourself allowed! Your are a good mom doing the best you can!!!!

 

If your doing a TBD titer, NC State has their forms on line etc. My understanding is they are the cream of the crop for TBD's now.

 

http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vhc/csds/ticklab.html

[TheFullHouse]

Glad to hear he's going to be on two meds and you have a plan if he seizes again. Hopefully these two meds will work well for him. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Guest Javasmom]

Keeping my fingers crossed that this helps. More than likely there will be other medication adjustments until you find out what works, but I hope this is a positive start. Yeah, I'd say you deserve a drink too, don't blame you one bit. Big hugs to all of you!

[JJNg]

I agree with everyone who's said not to feel bad about declining the MRI. To provide the absolute best care, vets (especially specialists) are obligated to recommend all the ideal testing to try to get a definite diagnosis. But in the 'real world' this is often not necessary or practical. Especially if the treatment plan is not going to differ significantly with or without the MRI, it is really more for academic purposes, or if you want it for peace of mind or want to know a prognosis if it's something bad.

 

As I mentioned before, with my IG case, both the owner and I were fully expecting the neurologist to recommend an MRI. I even asked him if it might be a good idea to do one a couple times, but he said no as he was confident it was just epilepsy. The IG was a rescue who was probably around 2-3 years old when the seizures started (idiopathic epilepsy usually starts somewhere around 2-7 yrs old), and he was initially having clusters every 2-3 weeks. There was minimal response to medications, and with each dosage increase or additional medication, it seemed like we would just space out the clusters a tiny bit more. Now with relatively high doses of 4 meds (pheno, KBr, zoni, and Keppra), the last couple clusters have been 7-8 weeks apart. He was first diagnosed almost 3 years ago, and we've been constantly working with him and adjusting/adding meds that whole time.

 

Regarding the cost of meds, are you using the generic for both zonisamide and Keppra? I'd suggest calling around and see if you can find better prices. I've found that in my area, compounding pharmacies often have the best prices (but we don't have a local Costco). For my 90 lb mastiff mix patient, we checked into prices for both generic Keppra and zonisamide, and the local compounding pharmacy (Long's) gave us prices of around $50-60/month for each of them. There are also some mail order veterinary compounding pharmacies that your vet could look into - Roadrunner is one that comes to mind.

 

Continuing to keep you and Steak in my thoughts. I hope this new neurologist can help you get his seizures managed better.

[kamsmom]

Beth, I just wanted to say that I'm impressed by your strength in this situation. Continuing good thoughts from my way.

 

Thank god for the internet so no one sees me totally breaking down in the vets offices My eyes are blood shot and my face is totally broken out from the stress. I haven't showered and look like death warmed over, thank goodness for hats. But, thanks for being so sweet

 

I learned a very valuable lesson today tho, when picking up your dog from the ER or anywhere, be sure they have used the bathroom before getting in the back seat and peeing on the leather seats It was soooo much that I thought he was going to start swimming in it. I called the bmw dealership and they are going to detail wash it for me tomorrow. They have me on the schedule for morning and will loan me a car for about two hours.

[Guest Adrianne]

 

Now I feel like crud.

 

 

Don't do that to yourself! You love this boy, and everything you're doing for him is out of love. We all hate it when money dictates a course of action with our pets, but sometimes you could spend an ungodly amount and still not alter the outcome or know any more than you did in the beginning.

[Guest Liz_in_PA]

I'm impressed that you were able to stay strong against the MRI and CT. Our dogs would not ask us to bankrupt ourselves.

 

I wish for you a night of uninterrupted sleep.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I'm surprised they sent him home already since he last seized only this morning? When Sophie clustered in the beginning, they would keep her on a valium IV until she was 24 hours seizure free. The valium they injected him with is going to wear off in just an hour or two. Do you have additional valium to give at home? The valium is fast-acting, while the additional Keppra and Zonisamide will take a while to get into his system. I'm NOT trying to worry you, believe me, but he might seize again once the valium wears off, until the other meds get to high enough levels in his bloodstream.

~Lindsay~

[kamsmom]

I asked about that Lindsay, the vet said that the keppra is actually absorbed pretty fast. I don't know, but I will call right now and ask again.

[inugrey]

The one thing I might spring for is the tick panel if you can afford it. Ask what was tested for before & if anything was left off previously, make sure it is included this time.

I was on my phone earlier so couldn't type much, but this would be my suggestion too if you decide to pursue anything beyond meds. And I would suggest asking htem to run it with MSU, not another lab. The full panel will run you about $150, plus what the vet charges you for the blood draw and shipping. I would hope given all of the cash that you've dropped that they'd do the blood draw without charging you though.

 

I think NC State is best for tick panels, lots of in house experts an they cover all the possible diseases. I agree that testing for a TBD will help close one other possible scenario for the seizures.

 

I hope you and Steak are able to fully relax tonight for success with the new meds.

[Batmom]

Hoping you can get some rest, Beth, and that your handsome sweet Steak will get past this awful episode and stabilize nicely on his new meds.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I asked about that Lindsay, the vet said that the keppra is actually absorbed pretty fast. I don't know, but I will call right now and ask again.

The Keppra does get absorbed faster than the Zoni. That's why it has to be dosed every 6-8 hours while Zoni is every 12. But I would just worry about the valium wearing off before the Keppra builds up to high enough levels. If you have enough valium at home, you should be fine. I just don't want you to have to rush to the e-vet again, and hurt the wallet even more! Good luck.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

 

 

 

[NeylasMom]

The one thing I might spring for is the tick panel if you can afford it. Ask what was tested for before & if anything was left off previously, make sure it is included this time.

I was on my phone earlier so couldn't type much, but this would be my suggestion too if you decide to pursue anything beyond meds. And I would suggest asking htem to run it with MSU, not another lab. The full panel will run you about $150, plus what the vet charges you for the blood draw and shipping. I would hope given all of the cash that you've dropped that they'd do the blood draw without charging you though.

 

I think NC State is best for tick panels, lots of in house experts an they cover all the possible diseases. I agree that testing for a TBD will help close one other possible scenario for the seizures.

 

I hope you and Steak are able to fully relax tonight for success with the new meds.

Yeah, thanks for catching that. MSU is for thyroid panels, I meant NC State. Just got my states confused.

 

Beth, I hope the new med cocktail has Steak on the path to being seizure free and that more immediately both you and he can get some much needed rest. And what you are describing is pretty much what my usual look is so don't worry about your hair nad face.

[Guest DoofBert]

Hugs for you and Steak..... no experience with this..... I wish I had some info to offer.

[Ullaluv]

Just now reading this. I am so sorry for what you and Steak are going through.

 

I have a question, couldn't quite be sure from reading all the posts here. Did your vet wean Steak off the phenobarbital gradually, or just stop it. Stopping it abruptly would lead to barbiturate withdrawal, and I big part of that withdrawal is seizures. I would hope that they would know better than to just stop the phenobarbital, but if that's what they did, it would definitely explain the way his seizures have escalated.

 

Keeping you and Steak in my thoughts and prayers.