Ibd - Happy Starving!

[Guest Vinnie]

Xan - I am sitting here with tears streaming down my face just thinking of Sweet Happy. I know how heavy your heart must be and how hard you have been trying to get her to feel better and eat. Our prayers and thoughts are with you. It is so hard to make these decisions when you love her so much. Wishing you could get the answers you need from your vet, all I can say is to follow your heart and Happy's lead. Many hugs, scritches and prayers coming your way. We will come up if you need us, just holler.

[Xan]

Augh. Now she's just messing with me! She's less dehydrated after 2000 ml of fluids yesterday, so she may feel a little better from that. She actually ate a couple shreds of that pulled pork DH got for her, voluntarily, if not enthusiastically. I then turkey-bastered about 1/4c of food (+slippery elm +nutritional yeast +probiotics) into her so I could give her her pills. DH is at the store, and I have him getting more applesauce (though she wouldn't take any raw apple, but just in case) and gatorade. I think she just drank some water on her own, too! She can still move easily, get up, get down, do stairs (3 at the door), wag for yes (as in, yes I want to go outside to pee, thanks for asking), and enjoy an ear rub. Do I keep her on life support 'til she can't do anything, and is in total organ failure, or let her go before that?

 

Stop all meds? I'd be scared to stop the budesonide, being a corticosteroid. She's still on the antibiotic, yes, but she was off it Sunday afternoon and Monday morning (ran the 10 day course, then got put back on), and the break did not improve her appetite. I'm concerned that Pepcid would lessen the acid in her stomach, which she needs to digest. She needs all the help breaking down food she can get. Or at least that's my sense of it. I stopped giving the pepcid awhile back. Then there's the soloxine (thyroid). That's supposed to help her feel more lively, right? The acidophilis is maybe of questionable value, in the scheme of things, as it seems to be the hardest one to get down her throat! Then there's the Tylan, to manage gut flora and fauna. ...

 

The B complex approach does sound interesting. It makes sense to me. I'll see if I can pin down my vet to add that to my list of questions (which I wrote down and left with him - and haven't heard back). I'm leery of adding and subtracting drugs without some vet input (not that we've done all that well with it, either).

 

Tubing her ... I just keep coming back to the question of what's the end goal, here? A few days more life, with tubes coming out of her, feeling awful? A partial recovery to a continued life of managed pain with episodes of extreme pain and back to tubes? This episode has lasted 3 weeks now. She's had a hard life. It's taken its toll. How recovered can we hope she can get?

 

Robin, no, she hasn't seen an internal med. specialist. Assuming one is even locally available, it's way beyond our ability to pay for. DH and I haven't done any medical or dental care for ourselves in a few years. The pets have gotten much better medical upkeep than we have, and I have the vet bill to prove it! I was hoping to get her to a holistic vet. If she hangs on a little bit longer, or looks like she wants to.

 

Time to feed everyone else, and get her IV set up. I'll be watching her even more closely today, to see what she wants/needs. Thanks everyone for the ideas, and the compassion. It means so much!

[Patsy]

Xan, my heart is with the both of you--sending all the white light I can muster.

[krissn333]

If she can still do all those things Xan, to me that means she's still willing to try. You know her best, and I'm not there, but, just from what I've read here, she's not done yet.

 

Many dogs live with IBD. It's a tough road, but, once you get everything balanced, they do fine.

 

I don't think I'd stop her meds. Tubing her for feeding, while it sounds crazy, isn't the worst thing ever, and it might just get enough food into her to get her out of this slump she's in and get the wheels turning again.

 

IMO if she wags her tail and is somewhat enthusiastic about everyday life, she's not done yet - she hasn't thrown in the towel. I know this is stressful for you

 

Come on Happy, eat some pork!

[Guest zoolaine]

for both you and Happy

[CaliforniaGreys]

Tubing her for feeding, while it sounds crazy, isn't the worst thing ever,

 

With all due respect, while it may not sound crazy, it can be the worst thing ever

[greyhead]

I emailed you, Xan, about the Pepcid. If she's not eating, she doesn't need much stomach acid, and excess stomach acid can cause or contribute majorly to inappetance. So I'd go back to the Pepcid.

 

B-Complex also comes in a liquid injectable form, and I agree at this point that she probably needs all the B's.

 

I don't know exactly where you are, but I can't be more than 2 hours away at most. And I would be ready, more than willing, and able to come help, if only for a day and if only to give you some respite.

 

Oh, and a feeding tube is not as bad as it sounds. I had the same reaction when one was proposed for one of my cats years ago, who had stopped eating. He died because I didn't do it. I'm better educated about it now. Not to say that you should do this! Just that when we're evaluating our options, we need to try to not dwell on the ick factors too much, even though it's natural.

 

Hugs, scritches, and prayers from the heart for you and Happy.

 

ETA: Didn't meant to contradict you, Claudia. I'm sure there are things about feeding tube potentials that I don't know. Sounds like you do. Maybe you'll elaborate because it sounds like an important consideration.

Edited November 25, 2009 by greyhead

[Guest Heehoo]

Xan, I haven't read the other posts, but have ya'll checked her for hermangio sarcoma? These are the same symptoms Dear had 2 years ago. My vet did an ultrasound & found a mass, aspirated it, nothing came back but pus & blood. Did surgery, took out a 4 lb tumor. Sent it off, hermangio sarcoma came back. I hope I'm wrong.

[Guest Billie]

I've been talking with Xan privately a lot about Happy, and I have no advice....I wouldn't know what to advise you, Xan...but want to publicly add in my and say that no matter what happens, no matter what direction this goes in, what choices might or might not have to be made, I know you will do whatever's best for Happy.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Billie

[Guest caiteag]

The only advice I have is to trust yourself. I know it is hard.. but trust yourself.

 

My heart and prayers and good thoughts are with you and Happy...

[Guest MZH]

The need for fluids just makes no sense to me if she's not in kidney failure. Sooooo, if she's not in kidney failure, why does she need fluids? Instead, she might have glomerular nephritis (aka GN) and not be in kidney failure although it looks like she might be. If she has protein in her urine that would be the first sign of GN right there. It would show on a simple urine dipstick test. The trouble with giving fluids is that if she has GN, the glomerulus can't filter the fluids and solutes from the extra fluids, which makes them sicker. Does she had edema from the fluids?

 

It would be a kicker if all she needed was Enalapril and maybe a baby aspirin. Ask the vet about all this -- please!

 

We had a dog with GN and he acted much like Happy. He also looked like he had a headache. It was from the high blood pressure they get. Glomerular nephritis is pretty common in greyhounds.

 

I'm still praying that she feels better soon.

 

Edited b/c I posted a factual error about the fluids.

Edited November 25, 2009 by MZH

[Xan]

If she can still do all those things Xan, to me that means she's still willing to try. You know her best, and I'm not there, but, just from what I've read here, she's not done yet.

 

Many dogs live with IBD. It's a tough road, but, once you get everything balanced, they do fine.

 

I don't think I'd stop her meds. Tubing her for feeding, while it sounds crazy, isn't the worst thing ever, and it might just get enough food into her to get her out of this slump she's in and get the wheels turning again.

 

IMO if she wags her tail and is somewhat enthusiastic about everyday life, she's not done yet - she hasn't thrown in the towel. I know this is stressful for you

 

Come on Happy, eat some pork!

I know, huh?

Just to make it all more complicated (did I say this already??), She's not vomiting, she hasn't had D but once in about a year, and that wasn't so much D as slimy mucousy gloop-poop. Maybe it's not IBD at all. As has been pointed out, we never did get a definitive dx on that.

 

One more possibility: Alicia paid me for the cards early ( to Alicia!), so I can pay off my vet bill with a little left over. I want to ask them to do an x-ray or sonogram, to see if there is obvious cancer or something else that will give us a sense of direction. DH's sense is that she's getting mixed signals from her body. All her cells are crying for nutrition, but her gut says she's full, or not hungry; don't eat. Or drink. Maybe, he thinks, there's a large mass filling her up or pressing against her stomach, as has been suggested here.

In any case, we won't operate on her. But it will give us an idea of what we're dealing with, and whether to just stop stuffing pills down her that don't help, and just do palliative care until it's truly time.

 

*sigh*

 

HeeHoo, how do you check for HS?

The need for fluids just makes no sense to me if she's not in kidney failure. Sooooo, if she's not in kidney failure, why does she need fluids?

Because she's not drinking on her own. That'll do it!

Instead, she might have glomerular nephritis (aka GN) and not be in kidney failure although it looks like she might be.

But, blood test didn't show that. At least, not last time it was done (last week).

If she has protein in her urine that would be the first sign of GN right there. It would show on a simple urine dipstick test. The trouble with giving fluids is that if she has GN, the glomerulus can't filter the fluids and solutes from the extra fluids, which makes them sicker. Does she had edema from the fluids?

Nope. Her front paws tend to swell a little, especially over night, but they have done that since we got her. It's no worse than normal-for-her with the fluids. Maybe better! My hypothesis is it improves her blood pressure to get the fluids in her??

It would be a kicker if all she needed was Enalapril and maybe a baby aspirin. Ask the vet about all this -- please!

I certainly will. Thanks, Marcia.

[Guest vahoundlover]

Keeping Happy in my prayers and you and your DH too!

[Batmom]

If she's taking steroids (especially) and antibiotics, she needs something to protect her stomach. You risk ulcers otherwise. Pepcid is a drug that people and dogs can take for years with no ill effects (unlike steroids).

 

My reasonining in stopping the meds and supplements (other than tummy med and possibly antibiotic) would be, she was on the pred for >1 year, and she lost weight and quit eating. Over the past @ 2 weeks, many other things have been tried -- antibiotics, acidopholis, prebiotics, slippery elm, fluids, plasma, B12, budesonide -- and she has gotten worse rather than better. So either the meds aren't working or something among them is actually making her feel worse. To that end, it might be worth swapping out the antibiotic for a different one -- like people, dogs can have bad reactions to one but not another.

 

Some things to think about (you don't have to answer here, got enough on your plate):

 

What were her last blood results like? Absolutely everything within normal range, no exceptions, no "kinda sorta's"?

 

Just how bad are her teeth?

 

When was the last time she was wormed?

 

Has your vet considered cardiac insufficiency as a part of her troubles?

 

 

ETA: AFAIK it doesn't hurt a non-pancreas disease dog to try pancreatic enzyme. It doesn't sound like that's her problem, tho. Dogs with that ailment usually lose weight faster, while still eating. Of course there are exceptions to every "usually" .....

Edited November 25, 2009 by Batmom

[Guest Energy11]

Glad you got the money for the cards! Do you do those Christmas cards? If so, they are wonderful, and I just bought some :-))

 

MY DH, who has absolutely NO medical experience, has the same hypothesis as yours ... that there might be a tumor/growth in her stomach, making her sick, and "feeling full." Surely wouldn't hurt to at least find out.

 

Sending support, love and lots of good luck and prayers to you!

[duncan41]

Have been following, lurking, reading, wishing, hoping and thinking and praying, planning and dreaming that this is the bottom with nowhere to go but up. I like 2 things: 1. abdominal ultrasound (done by an internist) and 2. less is more with the meds

 

That's as far as my opinions go. All I can do is what so many of us are doing and that is pray for Happy, Xan and family. I just cannot imagine the stress! No matter what, we've got your back.

 

p.s. Thanks Alicia!

[Guest Vinnie]

Miss Xan -

 

Gus here - I will gladly come up and help with the beautiful Miss Happy! And mama can give you a bit of a break if you want? I had lots of fun with Happy and Wabi chasing after me (I was just pretending to be scared!). Maybe she just needs some of my boyish charm to get her to play and eat? Mama says I can stay as long as you need me to! Let me know and I will have my limo driver - err, mama, bring me up riteawayquick! Snuffly kisses.

 

Lubs, Gus (as dictated to mom so you could understand me)

[Guest bigorangedog]

Xan, I've been reading all along and hoping each day for good news. Just wanted to let you know that we are all thinking about you at the BigOrangeDog house. I've lost 5 of my guys in the past 9 months, so I definitely know how you are feeling. My heart boy Crisco had cancer in his spine, and stopped eating in his last few days too, despite my efforts to bribe him. One night, in the middle of the night when he was awake and uncomfortable, we looked at each other and he told me clear as day that he was done.

 

I think you'll know if it's time. Or if she still has some fight in her. I'm hoping you find some answers soon.

 

And if you do another portrait marathon, I will be lining up to give you $$ to help with that vet bill!

 

Wish I had some medical advice for you, but all I can offer are our good wishes.

 

Jen

[GreyPoopon]

Just a followup to what Batmom said about the meds. It may not be relevant, but who knows at this point.

 

Piper recently had a serious bout with a recurrent UTI. I won't give you all the details (it's a very long story), but she wouldn't eat, was very very thin, and had the shakes. I thought I was losing her. I didn't think she was strong enough for the MRI that was being proposed. We decided to pull her off almost all the meds to test my hypothesis that we'd turned her into a little old lady by adding drugs to treat side effects of other drugs...

 

It took a few days before her appetite returned. She's not 100%, but at least she's eating.

[krissn333]

Just to clarify about the tube feeding, my only experience is with a cat, but, it worked. For 2 weeks her owner fed her through the tube and after that she was fine to eat on her own, but still had a port for weekly B12 shots.

 

How's she doing today? I'm glad you can now maybe get an xray or ultrasound to rule out anything wrong in her belly area.

 

[Guest Heehoo]

Xan, My vet did a blood count, and an ultrasound. When he saw the mass, he aspirated it, all that came out was blood & pus. His WBC was 90,000 vs 10,000 which showed there was an "absess, infection or cancer". (I'm looking at my daytimer) His fever was 103. At one point the WBC got up to 100,000. The day before his surgery to remove the tumor, he was depressed, wouldn't eat, running a fever & his stomach was enlarged.

The tumor was attached to his liver.

[lovinggreysslp]

No advice here but wanted to say that I have Happy in my prayers. I too have been down this road. It is ever so hard when you hound is not eating.

[Xan]

I'll start with an update.

Happy must have heard us talking, or maybe it was the heart-to-heart I had with her about needing a clear message. She is eating. Pulled pork. She's had 2 CUPS so far today. AND I've also turkey-bastered her with tripett (mixed with slippery elm and now vitamins - more on that below). AND she drank a little, TWICE!

She only got a 500ml bag of fluids, because she did eat first thing, then drank, this morning. Then she ate some more. I had to go get some more, and bought all they had, which was just over a pound. She's eaten nearly half of that! And drank more. And just seemed a little perkier.

While I was out, I checked at the vitamin store, and wouldn't you know it, the woman working there was a vet tech for many years. I had been thinking just B complex, but still also thinking probiotics (not just aciophilis), and L-Glutamine. I ended up with all that, plus EsterC. She also gave me some vet referrals, which I may use. At least good to have back-up.

I mixed up the vitamins in a goo of tripett and slippery elm, and got most of it into her with the turkey baster. (I think a pastry bag might work better.) Then she ate more pork! I can't believe she hasn't had instant D from that, but ... *shrugging* I'll take it!

 

Called the vet. He's sick and out of the office, but good ol' Elsa said she'd call him at home to ask about the naltrexone (and the other things I asked, but she didn't bother with that - oh well). He said, yes, go ahead, since I have it (THANKS ahicks! ), and agreed that an xray on Friday is the thing to do. So, we have an appointment, and it looks like she'll live to see it.

If she's taking steroids (especially) and antibiotics, she needs something to protect her stomach. You risk ulcers otherwise. Pepcid is a drug that people and dogs can take for years with no ill effects (unlike steroids).

Good point. If she goes without eating, I'll do the pepcid.

My reasonining in stopping the meds and supplements (other than tummy med and possibly antibiotic) would be, she was on the pred for >1 year, and she lost weight and quit eating. Over the past @ 2 weeks, many other things have been tried -- antibiotics, acidopholis, prebiotics, slippery elm, fluids, plasma, B12, budesonide -- and she has gotten worse rather than better. So either the meds aren't working or something among them is actually making her feel worse. To that end, it might be worth swapping out the antibiotic for a different one -- like people, dogs can have bad reactions to one but not another.

More good points (and what a memory!! ) The antibiotic is the best one by far for these nasty bugs, according to the sensitivity test they did on her urine culture, and it seems to be working. But, as you say. He wants her on them for another 10 days, but maybe we'll get the urine tested again, and stop if things don't grow. By which time she'll be almost through the second course, so maybe that's not worth the $$ for the labs.

Some things to think about (you don't have to answer here, got enough on your plate):

 

What were her last blood results like? Absolutely everything within normal range, no exceptions, no "kinda sorta's"?

 

Just how bad are her teeth?

 

When was the last time she was wormed?

 

Has your vet considered cardiac insufficiency as a part of her troubles?

 

 

ETA: AFAIK it doesn't hurt a non-pancreas disease dog to try pancreatic enzyme. It doesn't sound like that's her problem, tho. Dogs with that ailment usually lose weight faster, while still eating. Of course there are exceptions to every "usually" .....

I haven't seen her blood tests, though I'd like to. I can't comment intelligently on that.

Her teeth are not so great. The gums are deeply receded. I brush every day, though, and the antibiotics have improved the state of the gums, according to Dr S.

She was wormed last probably last year, at the start of all this. Panacur, as I recall.

The vet did say he felt her heart was beating rather slowly, even for a greyhound, last week, but felt it might have to do with overall muscle loss.

We talked about pancreatic enzymes. I think we tried that last year, to no effect, but maybe they weren't the right enzymes. She didn't like them, either.

Glad you got the money for the cards! Do you do those Christmas cards? If so, they are wonderful, and I just bought some :-))

 

MY DH, who has absolutely NO medical experience, has the same hypothesis as yours ... that there might be a tumor/growth in her stomach, making her sick, and "feeling full." Surely wouldn't hurt to at least find out.

 

Sending support, love and lots of good luck and prayers to you!

Thanks! (And, yes, the cards are my artwork. Glad you like them!)

 

Miss Xan -

 

Gus here - I will gladly come up and help with the beautiful Miss Happy! And mama can give you a bit of a break if you want? I had lots of fun with Happy and Wabi chasing after me (I was just pretending to be scared!). Maybe she just needs some of my boyish charm to get her to play and eat? Mama says I can stay as long as you need me to! Let me know and I will have my limo driver - err, mama, bring me up riteawayquick! Snuffly kisses.

 

Lubs, Gus (as dictated to mom so you could understand me)

Well, Gus, as usual, you're good for a smile! I don't think Happy is quite up to the joy and excitement she would no doubt feel at your visit, but I'll tell her you offered. Your mama is very very sweet to offer to come all the way up here, too.

 

Xan, I've been reading all along and hoping each day for good news. Just wanted to let you know that we are all thinking about you at the BigOrangeDog house. I've lost 5 of my guys in the past 9 months, so I definitely know how you are feeling. My heart boy Crisco had cancer in his spine, and stopped eating in his last few days too, despite my efforts to bribe him. One night, in the middle of the night when he was awake and uncomfortable, we looked at each other and he told me clear as day that he was done.

 

I think you'll know if it's time. Or if she still has some fight in her. I'm hoping you find some answers soon.

 

And if you do another portrait marathon, I will be lining up to give you $ to help with that vet bill!

 

Wish I had some medical advice for you, but all I can offer are our good wishes.

 

Jen

Jen, thanks so much. I can't believe you can even still think in words after so much recent grief. :bighug

(I'm quite flattered you'd want me to do a painting of your dogs! )

 

 

Just a followup to what Batmom said about the meds. It may not be relevant, but who knows at this point.

 

Piper recently had a serious bout with a recurrent UTI. I won't give you all the details (it's a very long story), but she wouldn't eat, was very very thin, and had the shakes. I thought I was losing her. I didn't think she was strong enough for the MRI that was being proposed. We decided to pull her off almost all the meds to test my hypothesis that we'd turned her into a little old lady by adding drugs to treat side effects of other drugs...

 

It took a few days before her appetite returned. She's not 100%, but at least she's eating.

You know, my own inclination is to manage with good diet, maybe with some supplements, but away from drugs as soon as possible. It's one of the reasons I'm asking these quality of life questions!

I'd want to discuss how/if/when to go off each drug (cipro, tylan, budesonide, and naltrexone) with my vet, or with a holistic vet, and exactly what to be feeding her, with whatever's going on with her.

 

So, to sum up: Much better day today, so far. Crossing fingers she feels even this good tomorrow, with no ill-effects from so much pulled pork! Xrays on Friday to rule out or in obvious growths or other abnormalities.

 

I want to send out huge lots of hugs to you all for riding along with me. I makes so much difference.

[Remolacha]

for pulled pork!

 

that tomorrow is another good day

[Guest Energy11]

Wow, pulled pork, huh??

 

I love the stuff! :-))

 

Hope this is a break for you guys, and Happy continues eating! If she is drinking, I'd add the Gatorade 50%/H2O 50%. Good Luck and lots of love!