Ibd - Happy Starving!

[Xan]

I am the WORST pet mom! We've been playing the will-she-eat-today game with Happy (age 10 1/2) on and off since she came to us a couple years ago. We finally narrowed down a raft of more obvious (nasty stool, skin issues, anorexia) and blood-test-type symptoms to a presumed IBD. Okay. Got her on a grain-free venison kibble, and she did pretty well. Gained weight, good energy, usually hungry.

 

Over the last few months, while her energy seemed alright, she's been going on more and more hunger strikes. I started fiddling with add-ons, take-it-out, warm, cold, freshly crunchy, soaked and mushy, but it just went downhill.

 

Last week, she had eaten very little for 4 days. I took her to the vet on Monday. She's down from just over 60 lbs to 51.7. The blood tests came back indicating she's "been starving for awhile". I'd open my veins for her; how could I not see it?? She's not death-camp skinny (two ribs, points of the hips), but, looking closer, you can see she's lost most of her muscle mass. Oh, and she has a raging UTI. She never complained. She never peed in the house. I missed that, too.

 

Okay, so do anything to get her to eat, vet says. Stick with the venison; maybe find some actual venison meat. I called around, drove from store to store, and ended up with Primal raw frozen venison mix. Oddly, every fur-bearing member of the household thought it was for him/her! She did eat it up, mixed with some kibble. GREAT! Two meals like that. Then a little less enthusiasm. Today she wouldn't eat at all. *sigh*

 

She seemed to me dehydrated, depressed, not hungry. I called the vet. Bring her in for fluids and a change of antibiotics. Okay, brought her home, and got her pumped up with one bag of IV fluids (to be repeated 2x/day for three days). Added more venison to her kibble mix from this morning.

 

Nope. Won't touch it.

 

So, my question after this saga is, going on the possibility that the venison is not working for her any more, that beef has been fed to her in the past and is not to be trusted anymore, and that bison meat is locally available, does anyone know if bison meat and beef are far enough apart protein-wise to be a viable possibe option?

 

Did you read all that??

 

Thanks for your help, if you have any, or for good thoughts if you don't.

[ZoomDoggy]

I read it all. I sadly don't have any sage advice. Been there . SOOOO been there with eating/not eating woes with a sick pup. I wish you the best.

[Batmom]

Is she taking something for her tummy, Xan? If she's on antibiotics, try:

 

- Give 1 regular-strength pepcid (10mg famotidine is the generic).

- Wait 30-40 minutes.

- Feed meal or sizable snack (handful of cookies, egg-sized lump of meat, slice of bread).

- Give antibiotic.

 

Can repeat 2-3 times a day.

 

Hugs and best luck.

[Xan]

Thanks for the sympathy, Aimee.

 

Batmom, she's not on anything for her tummy. Stupid question: is pepcid a tablet or liquid?

I'll get some first thing tomorrow. Thanks!

[tbhounds]

If she is truly an IBD dog then, if she's not being completely controlled her tummy is going to feel horrible. You might need to have further diagnostics run to determine the extent of the disease (Endoscopy). One thing you have to consider is her diet--I understand that you tried the Primal diet but, mentioned that it is a mix--mix of what? My IBD dog would not even tolerate eggs in mixes. It needs to be a truly novel carb/protein diet if it is to be fed to an IBD dog. Now, if she just has a sensitive stomach that's another issue. What indicated that she might have IBD on her blood work?? I'm sure that right now the antibotics she's taking for her UTI might decrease her appetite--which one is she taking?

[RobinM]

IBD- OH Xan, we were there.

 

We did a total blank slate start.

 

Broiled tilapia every 3 hours. Is she on pred? If not, how come???

 

I'd be happy to let you know what we did for Beau. I honestly would not be feeding beef and things like that if she is truly IBD.

Edited November 13, 2009 by RobinM

[Batmom]

Pepcid = a pill. They're quite small -- easy to poke down the throat or hide in a mooshy bit of most any food. The generic is cheap.

[Xan]

Robin, she is on pred, but a small dose. Blood tests now at the lab should indicate if she needs more (right?)

So, are you saying you feel beef is too close to bison? We haven't had her on a fish diet, yet. That might be next. I'm in research mode (again!)

I'd really like to do raw (especially if I could get someone else to do it for me! )

 

Thanks, Batmom. Yeay.

[Guest multigrey]

Boggles survived on venison for a year. When they hurt, feel awful, they just won't eat. I spoke to a nutritionist, explained that one of the foods his stomach would not tolerate was beef and was told that meant bison was a no-no also.

 

You do need a totally novel protein and the fish is a perfect starting point. True Inflammatory Bowel Disease can be very difficult to control. What works for one dog is a disaster for another.

 

My best advice to you is to please watch the pred level. Greyhounds cannot do large amounts for a long period of time. There are other drugs which will reduce inflammation without the side effects of pred. I think if you do a search on the archives here, you will find some wonderful information to bring to your vet.

 

My heart goes out to you....

[GreyPoopon]

Oh, do I feel for you. I have an IBD dog, and another (a broodie, no less) with recurrent UTIs, food issues, and a sensitivity to antibiotics (they make her sick). The broodie is oh-so-slowly coming back from a weight loss similar to Happy's--and she started out too thin.

 

I agree with Batmom that it's wise to give Happy something for her stomach. Between the possible IBD, the pred, the UTI, and the antibiotics, it's no wonder she's not eating.

 

What works for one dog is a disaster for another.

 

That is very important information that you need to keep in mind as you sort through all the advice you're given. Tilapia worked for RobinM's Beau, but it would have killed my IBD dog. Some dogs can't eat beef; I thought my IBD dog couldn't but she can. The broodie is currently surviving on cooked ground beef. There is a lot of interest in grain-free food these days, but most of my girls can eat grains--just not the same ones. One option is to do blood tests for allergies. A lot of people don't like them, but they've worked for me.

 

Other protein sources? Pork, lamb, duck...all of which are available in kibble, which you might be able to use when you've found a protein source that she can tolerate. There are also even more specialized items (rabbit, kangaroo) available in veterinary diets.

 

I hope you can find something to make Happy happy again soon.

[RobinM]

Raw is not the way to go for an IBD dog. I suggest you join the IBD dog on yahoo. I am PMing you.

[tbhounds]

Didn't know she is on pred already---you might just need to add Carafate to her meds. Pred is tough on tummies. Also, rather the pepcid you might want to ask your vet about using prilosec (20mgs once daily--must be given 45min to an hour after Carafate)--that's what OSU put my girl on.

[ahicks51]

Boggles survived on venison for a year. When they hurt, feel awful, they just won't eat. I spoke to a nutritionist, explained that one of the foods his stomach would not tolerate was beef and was told that meant bison was a no-no also.

 

I seem to recall that purebred bison are exceedingly rare; there are some who suggest there is no such thing left in the US, or at least not outside of national parks. Most were bred with cattle decades ago, producing "beefalo." As a result, bison for consumption purposes runs the same risk of allergy as does beef.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefalo

 

"Impact on wild American bison conservation

 

Creating the beefalo has however proved to be a serious setback to wild American bison conservation. The American bison population has been growing rapidly, and is estimated at 350,000, but this is compared to an estimated 60 to 100 million in the mid-19th century. Most current herds, however, are genetically polluted or partly crossbred with cattle, and hence are in fact "beefalo";[4][5][6][7] today there are only four genetically unmixed American bison herds left, and only one that is also free of brucellosis; it roams Wind Cave National Park. A founder population from the Wind Cave herd was recently established in Montana by the World Wildlife Fund."

[greyhoundgang]

My opinions, and what I'd do.

Pred is causing the issues. Not fixing them.

 

Get her to a holistic vet. Some acupuncture will help with her appetite.

Start cooking for her. Steak, eggs, chicken, hamburger and its broth (without the fat). Pour the broth on anything you're feeding. The pure food - if you can get organic even better - is better than kibble. Buffalo is available in many grocery stores. You can buy the marked down stuff.

 

Feed her 3 - 5 times a day. Small amounts.

 

Go to Greyhound Gang and read about fixing diarrhea and IBD.

Slippery Elm powder, in boiling water. Stir a lot. Make into a gel. Give it with food, honey or just put down the throat. Totally helps with IBD.

Just keep her on that.

 

Digestive Enzymes - i like Medizym, because it also helps with inflammation.

Greyhound Gang has those too.

 

Get the teeth checked.

Get her on joint supplements.

Grizzly Salmon Oil helps too.

When I am Older booklet -

 

Get her off the pred.

 

All my opinions based on the hundreds of hounds who have passed thru Gang's doors.

 

claudia & Greyhound Gang

[Xan]

Wow! So much to consider, much of it contradictory! My brain hurts!

 

Okay, I'm taking notes, will do some research, will talk to vet, love the idea of a holistic vet, and will look for one.

 

The devil's in the details, huh?

 

Question for Claudia: she's been on a low dose of pred for over a year. 5mg once a day. Can you comment on why you think this is causing the problems?

 

She's also on Tylan powder, low-dose thyroid, and now ciprofloxacin twice a day for the UTI.

[Batmom]

I'd sooner take her off the thyroid than the pred if she's losing weight. 5mg of pred once a day isn't much; any side effects from that, even long term, are going to be pretty minor. Did she have a full thyroid panel before starting thyroid meds? If anything was borderline there, I would discuss with your vet taking her off that med.

[Guest WarmheartedPups]

Just to be more confusing. WHen Roo was put on Pred....she ate...but not enough....she lost 7 pounds in 5 days...I thought she was dying. My Vet said it was an unusual reaction to the Pred and he took her off of it. It was only 5 mg.

 

I guess usually Dogs gain weight with Pred...but Roo lost weight quickly.

 

 

I had an IBD dog as well. THe Univ. did scope him to find out the extent of the disease...Everything was abnormal from throat to butt!

 

Its tough....if truly IBD....try not to mess with the diet...but in your case...wow.....does your pup have to be on Pred?

Edited November 13, 2009 by WarmheartedPups

[Xan]

Oy.

I've just been reading that pred can be dangerous, even in small doses, if there's a lymphoma. After a few years, though, I'd think that would have become apparent. Right?

Someone pm'd me saying scoping is hard on older dogs, and maybe not to do that route. I'll ask about the pred, up, down, or off! Thyroid, too? I'll ask about that, too.

 

Since her poop has actually improved from acceptable to pretty darn good since putting her on the raw venison mix, I'm wondering if it's not necessarily the IBD that's putting her off her feed at all. The UTI alone might be enough for that, right? Then the antibiotics (got the pepcid). Her teeth are crappy, with lots of receded gum and some exposed roots. I've been waiting for her to get on real solid footing before attacking what's left of her teeth, but maybe that's the wrong way around.

 

:unsure

 

All I know for sure is, she's not a happy camper right now.

[Meandmy]

I'm sorry I don't have much to add, but I'm so sorry you're going through this with happy.

 

I had a cat a few years ago with IBD and chronic UTI's. It wasn't fun for anyone

 

I'll be thinking of you and yours while you work to get this all figured out.

[CaliforniaGreys]

I haven't read all the reply so if this is a repeat, I apologize.

 

When I went through this with Misty, it was baked Tilapia. Very clean fish and very good protein.

And of course I added your famous Nutritional Yeast, and pepcid for sure

[GreyPoopon]

I'm wondering if it's not necessarily the IBD that's putting her off her feed at all. The UTI alone might be enough for that, right?

 

Right. At least it does for my broodie (Piper). It's one of the first signs. Antibiotics for the UTI make it even worse. (ETA: Just to make things even more fun, she tends to get a UTI if her food is changed.)

 

I have not had a dog refuse to eat due to pred--have had a couple on it--it often seems to make them ravenous instead. Besides, if she's been on the pred for a year, that's not the new variable. But if it is contributing to her lack of appetite, the Pepcid can help.

 

And yes, there is a whole lot of conflicting info about IBD. Some of it due to different philosophies, some of it because it isn't a simple condition.

Edited November 13, 2009 by GreyPoopon

[Xan]

I haven't read all the reply so if this is a repeat, I apologize.

 

When I went through this with Misty, it was baked Tilapia. Very clean fish and very good protein.

And of course I added your famous Nutritional Yeast, and pepcid for sure

 

Baked. Robin said grilled (I think?) I just tried white snapper (they didn't have tilapia). Raw: nope. Pan-seared: hm...nope. Desperation move: canned Trader Joes's Tuna for Cats (tuna, taurine, and vitamins): Yeay! She ate the few tablespoons I dished out to try. So, I added it to some more seared snapper torn up small, with her tylan powder, and she licked the bowl. Except for one teaspoon-sized piece of snapper, which no amount of smearing with tuna would entice her to eat. (Wabi liked it though! )

 

How often should I give the pepcid?

[CaliforniaGreys]

As for cooking the Tilapia Xan, I folowed exactly what Dr Jean Dodds instructed. Don't know if there's much difference, baked vs broil.

 

As for the Pepcid, I would give it to Misty 1/2 hour to 45 min before a meal

[RobinM]

No difference broiled or grilled other than a lot of the drippings will be lost, but defintely not raw.

[GreyPoopon]

Xan - Tylan is very bitter. Some of my girls won't touch it, others will; those who do might refuse it if they're feeling punk. If you had Tylan on the venison, that might be part of the problem. I used to use a teeny tiny bit of garlic powder to get it into Minnie (the IBD dog). Now I use capsules for the ones who won't eat it. Or you could use tuna juice.