Ibd - Happy Starving!

[greyhead]

When Spencer still had SIBO, his breath was so bad you could have called it death breath. He still has paint in his muzzle hair that his breath/saliva dissolved when he laid his head on the painted hearth!

 

It occurs to me that it may not be IBD. Or it might not be just one thing; it might be that and some form of SIBO. I would really check that out, Xan, and all you have to do is take in a poop sample to be analyzed for bugs. You just have to make sure they don't just check for E. coli and Salmonella and call it good. There are lots of other bugs. A culture adn sensitivity needs to be done to find out which a/b's will kill the particular germ.

 

If she has an infection like that, an immunosuppressant will just hurt her by weakening her immune systems ability to fight it. And the wrong antibiotic won't help her. Maybe you should back off the budesonide until you rule out infection. I think that's why Spencer lost so much weight on pred and tylosin didn't help. Even Flagyl didn't help because we didn't do it long enough, and it wasn't the first-choice a/b for his bug. We first gave those meds as a shot in the dark, not knowing what he had except for malabsorption for some then-unknown reason. As I've said elsewhere, I think in his case the progression was from SIBO to malabsorption to IBD.

 

No pressure, hon, just ideas I think worth considering. Hugs to all concerned!

[Guest MZH]

I was thinking -- we're all trying to help Xan with Happy but none of us have seen her test results nor do we know what's she's been eating or know what her medical history is or even where she's been before Xan got her. We don't know why she's been on pred for over a year. We don't know what bacteria is in her UTI. We don't know why her gut isn't working. Is it related to the UTI, the pred, or something else? Why aren't the plasma transfusions or Ringers fluids or budesonide helping? We don't know if she's in kidney failure or what her thyroid values are. It's probably time for all us to all chill with the advice. If Happy gets one wrong medication, treatment or supplement it could kill her.

 

Maybe it's time for a second opinion if vet number one is stumped.

 

PS. The one food that got one of our very sick elderly dogs eating was pizza crust! You never know what will kick-start an appetite. Oh, she turned out to have Lyme disease, long before it became well-known. This was in the early 90s when we lived in CT, not far from Lyme CT!

[Xan]

Mary, I'll ask about a poop bug test. I think it's a good idea. It's not like it's an invasive procedure, after all.

 

Yes, she's on lactated ringers, whatever that means! I meant to look that up ...

 

Marcia, you make good points. I wish my memory was better for what happened when this all started, over a year ago. I'll have to see if I can get more background for what I can't remember. I know we did a stool test, but can't remember what we were testing for (I seem to recall that there was a lot of protein, which was no surprise). Blood tests were indicating some kind of PLE, but not exactly what/why. There was some controversy between the vet who did the first tests, and then my present vet, to whom I went for plasma transfusion prescribed by the first vet. Present vet didn't think that was the right choice, even a bad choice, and read the test results very differently. Being me, I do not remember what was what. I might still have the notes I took. We did do xrays at that point, as I recall, which showed nothing conclusive. As I recall. Tested her thyroid, started her on soloxine and pred, put her on Z/D, switched her to venison kibble, and she did very well, for ... not quite a year. I'm thinking that was about this time last year.

 

I have some decent news for tonight. After giving her the fluids, which I added the B12 to, she began to find an appetite for little bits. I gave her twice the B12 dose, because ... well, call it intuition! I've seen B12 pull sick goats (my main veterinary experience before greyhounds) up off the ground and to their feeder as if it were any other sunny day. I couldn't believe it didn't put any spring into Happy at all. Someone (Mary?) said that fluids would wash Bs out, so I thought I need to do more than replace, I need to bump. So. Well, there ya go.

 

Yesterday, she ate a total of 3/4 c of food all day. Today, she ate a little more than 2 1/2c of food. Not nearly enough, but way better! She even got up and stood in DH's face wagging her tail for petting! We haven't seen that in a couple weeks.

 

Now, I'm not going to go off the deep end yelling miracles, but keep those positive thoughts rolling!

 

I hope the vet is rested after his weekend out of town. I have his work cut out for him.

[Guest vahoundlover]

Xan, you know your girlie best

[Guest kydie]

IBD I feel for you, I have a GSP, with this, i ran thr gambit, took him everywhere, then I saw a holistic vet, he put on the right path, and so far so good, Good Luck, poor pup

[Guest Energy11]

Glad Happy seems better today.

 

 

Lactated Ringers is loaded with electrolyes needed by the body to function. Basically like "Gatorade" for the veins, as I used to tell my ER patients!

 

Good Luck and keep us posted! Dee and The Five

[Xan]

Gatorade for the veins! Got it. Thanks!

 

She ate (about 1/4c, but I'll take it!), peed and pooped this morning. She even drank a little on her own! Yeay!

 

 

[Guest Energy11]

Gatorade for the veins! Got it. Thanks!

 

She ate (about 1/4c, but I'll take it!), peed and pooped this morning. She even drank a little on her own! Yeay!

 

If she is drinking, you could add Gatorade, or Pedilyte to her drinking water, 50/50. That way, she is getting her electrolytes in her drinking water, which will help with her dehydration as well. Mixing 50/50, helps the mixture get into the cells more quickly! Good Luck!

[Xan]

I had read that the sugar in gatorade can make D worse? Has anyone used this for dogs with bowel issues? Don't know about pedialyte. Maybe less sugar? She doesn't have D now, but that would certainly not be an improvement.

 

Back to my sick goats, I was told how to mix an electrolyte mixture with water and salt substitute. And something else? I'll have to look that up. Another good thing to have on hand that I haven't had to think about in years!

 

We have an appointment at 1:30 (PST). I mentioned an ultrasound to the woman I talked to (head vet tech? nurse?), and she says they can do that there, but I have to say I think they're getting tired of me. Or my bill growing larger and larger, maybe.

[Guest Energy11]

I had read that the sugar in gatorade can make D worse? Has anyone used this for dogs with bowel issues? Don't know about pedialyte. Maybe less sugar? She doesn't have D now, but that would certainly not be an improvement.

 

Back to my sick goats, I was told how to mix an electrolyte mixture with water and salt substitute. And something else? I'll have to look that up. Another good thing to have on hand that I haven't had to think about in years!

 

We have an appointment at 1:30 (PST). I mentioned an ultrasound to the woman I talked to (head vet tech? nurse?), and she says they can do that there, but I have to say I think they're getting tired of me. Or my bill growing larger and larger, maybe.

 

I have given that Gatorade mixture 50/50 WHEN mine had The Big "D" and no problems. We suggest it for humans who have had continuing diarrhea as well. Personally, I don't think it would hurt. Good Luck at the vets today!

[Guest caiteag]

Still no suggestions here.. just good thoughts and hugs...

 

:grouphug

[Xan]

Thanks Energy11. I'll get some today.

Thanks Cara-Lea.

[greyhead]

Whew, sounds a little better anyway! Looking forward to hearing how things stand after the vet today. Continued hugs and prayers.

 

 

[krissn333]

Just popping in looking for an update on your sweet girl...

[2hounds]

Popping in, how did the appointment go today? B12 is definitely an appetite increaser so it could help her want to eat. Lots of good thoughts coming your way!

[Xan]

We're still going on an assumption of IBD, though I must say I'm beginning to wonder, and said so today. Malabsorption, yes. That much is clear, but why? I'm also feeling more confident that we're not dealing with SIBO, since, again, no D. The vet talked today about pancreatic function, and adding pancreatic enzymes. There's a test ... And that's where it gets sticky. They're beginning to balk at sending stuff to the lab when I have this outstanding bill (nearly $1800 so far). I pay in dribs and drabs, but it goes up faster than it goes down, lately. I can't blame them, of course. So, we're holding off on the ultrasound and more lab tests for the moment. Keeping up with fluids as needed, B12, cipro (the bugs are clebsiella [sp?] and pseudomonas), budesonide, tylan, acidophilis, slippery elm, prebiotics, soloxine (thyroid) ... Am I leaving something out?? And talking about adding pancreatic enzymes.

 

I wanted to talk to him about L-glutamine and naltrexone, but they squeezed us in to a very busy schedule, and I lost him before I got to that. I left him some info (thanks, ahicks!) and a couple questions. Our plan is to hope she keeps doing at least this well, and check back on Wednesday. Her urine was much improved, though still concentrated (no lab; just visual), though her last lab showed no growth when cultured. Which is good, but he wants to play it safe and stay on the cipro.

 

She just ate a CUP of cooked ground turkey! My records show she has an uptick in appetite between 5 and 6pm, so I'll feed her again around 6. Her weight was back up to a whopping 52 (should be ~63), though I can't imagine where that came from. Fluids, maybe?

 

Must paint portraits!!

[krissn333]

That's good Xan! Pancreatic test - CPL? That's what Sutra has at his checkups. It checks for certain level of pancreatic lipase, IIRC. If it's positive it means the pancreas is irritated. Sutra usually takes clavamox for that, but the Cipro might help that too.

 

The other thing with pancreas issues is digesting stuff. That's why I was feeding him "mooshy" foods - they're easier to digest so the pancreas will "chill out" basically (because it's going overboard producing digestive enzymes).

 

The ground turkey should be pretty easy for her to digest, so it's good that she's interested. I know I've mentioned mashed potatoes and macaroni before too but I'm not sure if your vet said those are ok or not. If they are, those are easily digestible things too.

 

We're all throwing so much at you - thanks for being patient with us throwing everything at you ...it must be pretty frustrating trying to remember to ask about 80 different things every time you're at the vet!

 

Hoping Happy ate some more for you at 6! I found that Sutra never wanted to eat when he'd first got up for the day - he was much more interested in eating about 2 hours after getting up, then again around dinnertime, and then again before bedtime. On weekends I'd try to feed him sometime between breakfast and dinnertime too. I bet the B12 is helping the appetite too

[Guest FLT]

Xan - hang in there! I'm continuing to send lots of positive thoughts towards you and Happy. I'm glad she had a whole cup of turkey earlier, and hope she ate more after you posted.

 

Hugs,

 

FL

[3DogNite]

I love how the people of GT can tell the exact time of day their dogs hunger increases,, even a little,, I often hear other dog owners talk like they never even look at their doggies! My really old gal is NEVER hungry before 10 am,, then not again until 4 on the dot,, then if i'm lucky she'll eat again before bed.. sometimes wanting food in the tummy before pills go down is tricky, but we make it work!

 

Keep it going Happy!! we are all rooting for you!!! have a ,, (i'm on a pre-holiday diet or I'd join you!)

 

 

 

[Guest Energy11]

I like he fact she is eating, period. Sure, the fluids could contribute to her weight gain. Does in we humans.

 

Did they do a blood draw for the pancreatic enzymes, or are they just guessing?

 

At this point, so as not to get too overwhelmed, take it day by day. That is ALL you CAN do.

 

WE: the money ... at least you are paying something! I ran up over $700 at my vets, and finally paid it off. I start again in January with bloodwork on Curfew and Goldie.

 

Love, hugs and good Luck! Dee and The Five

[Remolacha]

I am glad she is doing a little better! I just posted in OT, one of my cats has exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (along with CRF). We (vet & I) have been tinkering with this for a couple of months, and have finally found a combination of digestive enzymes and food (Purina EN & Fancy Feast ) that are working for him for now. I opted not to do the test, just try the treatment.

 

Maybe some digestive enzymes would help Happy keep some weight on. As I understand it, the pancreas stops producing the enzymes that help break the food down, so it passes through the system with out being absorbed. (sorry if you already know all this!) With Happy already not eating much, not a good scenario.

 

It sounds like there is some food sensitivity there, so maybe some easily digestible foods with some digestive enzymes?

 

for something to work!

[greyhead]

So it sounds like pancreas issues can involve either not enough digestive enzymes or too many! As if life weren't confusing enough!

 

Happy to hear Happy is doing better. Hoping for a good update today too!

[Guest zoolaine]

I read an interesting article awhile back about pancreatic insufficiency - it basically said the dogs eat and eat but continually lose weight. I know what you mean about running up the vet bills. Although I have insurance for my dogs, they are not covering Sunny's PLE because he was diagnosed about 2 weeks after the plan started, which is reasonable. I use Care Credit for most of the vet bills, you get 3-18 months interest free depending on how much you spend. I think the most frustrating thing is spending the money and the tests being inconclusive. Heck yeah I would pay a lot for tests if I knew it would help, but to pay and then still not know is frustrating and kinda depressing to. Good thoughts going out to you guys!

[Jackandgrey]

Just checking in on Happy Xan. My heart goes out to both of you. I wish Happy eating and absorbing thoughts!!!

[Xan]

Not doing well today. Her IV catheter needs to be replaced

<time passes>

<4 1/2 hours later>

She's now resting with her IV pouring fluids and B12 into her. She hasn't voluntarily eaten a thing today, puked some BRIGHT orange bile (maybe 2 tablespoons - she's empty!), though I managed to pipe about 1/3 cup of pureed turkey and sweet potato (and nutritional yeast and slippery elm) into her to pad the budesonide. This is one of those bad days.

She's lost weight again. Now at 50 lbs.

 

 

I find my own mood is completely under her control. If she eats, I'm giddy! If she doesn't, I'm blue blue blue.

 

Energy11, our bill is about $1800 right now. No more lab tests 'til we can pay it down. Thank goodness I'll be getting some money soon from card sales as well as the portrait marathon.