Ibd - Happy Starving!

[DaisyDoodle]

Donna, as I said on FB this morning, my vegan self has her fingers in her ears and is chanting "la la la la la!"

That's interesting about the pred. What I read was that it can mask lymphoma, then (for some reason) make it harder to treat. This was in a statement warning against treating for IBD based on a diagnosis based on symptoms, as opposed to biopsy. I noticed the vet checking her jaw line today. I'll check her other spots. Thanks for that.

The masking part makes sense Xan. Since pred is used to treat lymphona, it would keep the size of the nodes down, so it would trick someone examining the nodes into thinking they weren't enlarged. According to this website, http://www.dogcancer.net/k9-labs.html pred can affect the white blood cell count, so that seems like it would also throw off that diagnostic marker as well. I would conclude that the pred would delay diagnosis, thus allowing the disease to progress quietly.

 

Hopefully that is NOT what is going on with Happy. Given all the icky bugs the vet has found, hopefully, he'll find the right antibiotic, and all will be well with Happy's tummy.

 

You need to start a chant--I'm not good at wordsmithing such things but know I am thinking "Happy Thoughts"!

 

DD

 

PS How about yogurt or kefir for the probiotics and the protein? I have been eating a fat-free organic Greek yogurt that has 22 or 23 grams of protein per cup.

[mom2four]

I also have not read all the responses, and know very little about IBD in dogs (cats...yes). I just wanted to suggest a kibble if it is appropriate: First Mate Ocean Fish and Potato large breed. It has one protein source, Ocean fish (herring). It is made in British Columbia, I see that you are not too far away.

 

Link

 

And, lots of good luck wishes for Happy!

[Xan]

Not seeing any salicylate-like-looking thing on the label.

 

I'll definitely ask him more specifically. I'm also looking at licorice and slippery elm, also L-glutamine. Any experience with any of these? Or N-Acetyl-Glucosamine?

[Xan]

Oops! I missed a couple posts!

I'll look at that food, mom2four. Thanks!

Donna, oh, I'm chanting, alright. Some of it isn't printable, though!

I wish she'd eat yogurt. It's one of the things she's decided is poison. If it touches the thing she's been eating, that thing becomes forever bad. I can't seem to sneak it in. I'm reduced to sticking supplements down her poor throat, one after the other, along with the antibiotics. If that doesn't make her want to vomit ...

[mom2four]

.

 

I'm also looking at licorice and slippery elm, also L-glutamine. Any experience with any of these? Or N-Acetyl-Glucosamine?

 

 

We've used Slippey elm, it worked well for us.

[Patsy]

Xan, do you have an easily-accessible source for nutritional years? I ask cuz I do and I'd be happy to make Happy up a CARE package.

[Xan]

Patsy! I have a great source: my kitchen cupboard. I buy it bulk at my grocery store, and love it! Happy is hot and cold on it. Luckily she doesn't consider it poison. Yet. I get it in on her when she'll take it. I make a little slurry of it in my palm, and if she licks it up, I add it to her food.

 

Thanks, mom2four. I'm working up a natural pharmacy list, here! I'd love to be able to get her off the coritcosteroids altogether, at some point.

 

That fish-based food looks good! Very simple. Also available at my fave pet supply store right near by. I might see if I can get a sample, to see if she'll eat the fish. Right now, we're sticking with lamb, as long as she'll eat it!

[GreyPoopon]

If your vet is against Pepcid, there are other stomach protection meds too that might help. We use Misoprostal, because I keep it in stock for Minnie (my IBD dog). It helped Piper tolerate her antibiotics.

[Xan]

*jotting more notes* Misoprostal. Got it. I'll ask him about that. Thanks!

[greyhoundgang]

Slippery Elm will help as mentioned earlier. it really will.

 

You boil water with slippery elm powder in it. keep it on low. stir. make a gel. give some to dog. coats intestinal track, and helps soothe and fix.

with no side effects.

 

from web site -

To give internally, mix about 1/4 teaspoon of Slippery Elm bark powder with cold water for every 10 pounds of body weight. The bulk powder may be very fluffy, so pack it down as much as possible to measure it. Alternatively, use 1/2 capsule (per 10 pounds), opened and the contents mixed with water. Slippery Elm powder will absorb many times its own weight in water, so be sure to add enough to make a moderately thick gruel. This gruel can be given before meals by syringe or eyedropper, or added to baby food, canned food, or a homemade diet. It has a slightly sweet taste and is usually well-tolerated by cats and dogs when mixed with food. Give a dose 5 minutes before meals for sore throat, and before or with meals for digestive tract problems, such as inflammatory bowel disease, until symptoms resolve.

 

Greyhound Gang has info under LEARN/MEDICAL/DIARRHEA.

 

Re the Prednisone for a year. Even small doses cause issues. And that is a long time. Look at what you're dealing with now. Just my opinion from seeing what pred has done to many dogs, and seeing how holistic vets cure without it.

 

 

[3DogNite]

Yep,, second the slippery elm!

I got it from Claudia web site,, and tried it last week with a bout of Big D ~~ it makes the runny stuff into pudding, then helps heal the mucus membranes and continues to help bring the Poop back to real poop!

 

i used a syringe to administer.. my dogs are REALLY picky about what they eat!

 

did you find Tilapia at Costco yet? looks like mine carries it all the time now!

 

 

[Xan]

Slippery Elm will help as mentioned earlier. it really will.

 

You boil water with slippery elm powder in it. keep it on low. stir. make a gel. give some to dog. coats intestinal track, and helps soothe and fix.

with no side effects.

 

from web site -

To give internally, mix about 1/4 teaspoon of Slippery Elm bark powder with cold water for every 10 pounds of body weight. The bulk powder may be very fluffy, so pack it down as much as possible to measure it. Alternatively, use 1/2 capsule (per 10 pounds), opened and the contents mixed with water. Slippery Elm powder will absorb many times its own weight in water, so be sure to add enough to make a moderately thick gruel. This gruel can be given before meals by syringe or eyedropper, or added to baby food, canned food, or a homemade diet. It has a slightly sweet taste and is usually well-tolerated by cats and dogs when mixed with food. Give a dose 5 minutes before meals for sore throat, and before or with meals for digestive tract problems, such as inflammatory bowel disease, until symptoms resolve.

 

Greyhound Gang has info under LEARN/MEDICAL/DIARRHEA.

 

Re the Prednisone for a year. Even small doses cause issues. And that is a long time. Look at what you're dealing with now. Just my opinion from seeing what pred has done to many dogs, and seeing how holistic vets cure without it.

Oh, that's where I read it first! : I've been drowning myself in information, lately. I'm having a hard time remembering what, where, who ...

 

I am concerned about the pred, too. We're weaning off it now, and I'm hoping the slippery elm, and maybe, if needed a few other goodies will help. I have a call in to the vet, and hope he'll be getting back to me, soon. I have errands to run (ALL Happy-related!), so I'll find some slippery elm while I'm out.

Thanks, all!

[greyhead]

Went back to your first post and read: "Last week, she had eaten very little for 4 days. I took her to the vet on Monday. She's down from just over 60 lbs to 51.7. The blood tests came back indicating she's 'been starving for awhile'."

 

Did the vet say this test indicated intestinal malabsorption? Because if it did, Happy not only really needs B-12 injections, but it will HUGELY improve her appetite and everthing else about her. She will be better able to fight the UTI, the IBD, etc. I emphasize that it's easy to think the food is the problem and to keep changing foods when it's not the food as much as it's her biology that's the problem. And if she does have IBD, frequent food changes now will likely make feeding her much harder down the road.

 

Mere vitamins can be shockingly powerful. I'll bet you already know that. So let me offer you hugs and sympathy for the information overload you're struggling with! It's overwhelming, so make sure you get your rest too.

Edited November 17, 2009 by greyhead

[Guest BooMooandDoo]

Raw is not the way to go for an IBD dog. I suggest you join the IBD dog on yahoo. I am PMing you.

Actually it depends on the dog. Raw is the only way I can control Tucker's IBD and I believe it is the only reason he's made it to 11.

 

Xan, with a true case of IBD, the body is always developing antibodies against what they eat. You commonly have to change the protein source. Tucker can only tolerate Venison and Rabbit at this point. . .and it started 8 years ago with just chicken.

 

If you go raw, Primal is a good start. . .Bravo has some ground whole rabbit that is a fabulous product too.

 

Good luck.

[Xan]

Ah! I'd forgotten to ask the vet about B12 injections. I've just written it down. Again.

I'm thinking (but was too flustered to ask) that her "starvation" must be in part to malabsorption. I should have guessed. It seemed she was having to eat a lot at each meal to keep her weight on.

 

Lori, I'm so glad to hear ol' Tucker is doing so well! Happy's almost his age. *crossing fingers she makes it to her next birthday!* My personal inclination is towards more natural approaches than less, so I did offer her raw, and will continue to. So far, with minimal luck. But, we're in crisis mode right now, so that's to be expected.

 

Did I say she would have nothing to do with her breakfast, and would barely get up when asked. I've stuffed her morning pills down her, and given her her fluids, but ... DH just left for a business trip to Mexico for three days. I hope she's still here when he gets back!

 

I'm calling around to find slippery elm ...

Edited November 17, 2009 by Xan

[GreyPoopon]

Xan, with a true case of IBD, the body is always developing antibodies against what they eat.

 

This too depends on the dog. Minnie, diagnosed by scoping almost 8 years ago, can still eat the same protein that worked then.

 

[ElizabethGPAPS]

Xan, I'm not at home now but I believe I have a bag of powdered Slippery Elm bark at home left over from the fight against Isabella's chronic skinniness. I'd be happy to mail it to you. I can let you know later. I got it on Ebay. The taste isn't bad - I would just mix it in her food. It's got a fairly appetizing, rather sweet aroma.

 

As for Vitamin B-12 shots - that's a good idea. I used to have a friend who worked at an old-folk's home and she said they always knew when it was vitamin shot day because everyone was so perky and animated

[Xan]

Elizabeth, thanks! I got some today, so hang on to it. Maybe you'll need it again someday.

 

I also found, at the same herb store, capsules and a capsule filler! That saved me having to go to a somewhat distant pharmacy to pay $20 to get the 1/3 container of Tylan encapsulated, and only cost $23.

 

Had a good talk with the vet. He agreed that B-12 injections sound like a good idea, and will have some for me tomorrow. He also agreed to switch right over to the budesonide, and called in a prescription to Costco for me. ...

 

ACK!! Where do you people get yours?? This stuff was $362 for 40 2mg capsules! I had to leave it at the counter! I've got several other windows open searching for lower prices, but would appreciate any tips!

 

He also said I could use the pepcid, and would look up a few other things I asked him about.

He wants to give her some plasma, for the protein, and other goodies. Luckily, with Brilly and Pogo being blood donors, that means I get it for free. I'll give her one bag tonight, then another tomorrow. I'm going to have to hire myself out as a vet tech if this keeps up!

 

Total side note: I saw the most gorgeous and *lively* red setter at the vet's today. I don't know when I've seen one last, but was impressed how much bigger he is than greyhounds. And pretty! And LIVELY!

 

Oh, and I'm in a much better mood at this moment because Happy did choose something to eat today. Not lamb with potatoes. Not tripett. No, today she ate fish kibble (First Mate, very limited ingredients). Whatever! If she'll eat it, I'll give it to her, right now.

[ahicks51]

Xan, with a true case of IBD, the body is always developing antibodies against what they eat.

 

This too depends on the dog. Minnie, diagnosed by scoping almost 8 years ago, can still eat the same protein that worked then.

 

Was reading some stuff today- for people with IBS, those with intolerances to meat ran 11-14% (for all types), while vegetable matter ran 20-30-40% intolerance, depending upon the food item. I bet it's those danged lectins.

 

I'm strongly suspecting what happens is that the villi are caused to grow too fast by lectins, which emulate the effects of epithelial growth factor (EGF). As a result, the space between the cells (called the tight junction) goes wacky, allowing stuff through the intestinal walls- both ways- that shouldn't.

 

Things that counter EGF include vitamin D and fish oil. Removing the lectins (which are found almost entirely in plants) would help.

 

Supplementing with vitamin D may or may not be a good thing. Unlike humans, dogs make their own. Don't want to add too much, but it's tough to say how much constitutes excess in the canine. The relatively small amounts in fish oil may be enough to help.

[Xan]

D@mn lectins!

 

*I may be slightly hysterical. Ignore me if that's what it looks like. Mm hm. Could well be hysterical.*

[krissn333]

Xan, another food to maybe look into for your arsenal later is the Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. It has a decent amount of fat in it though, which is how I finally got little Skimmie to put on some weight and keep it on...but it's grain free...have a peek when you feel like your brain can take in more info and see if it would be an acceptable food source for her.

 

Good news that she ate the other kibble

[krissn333]

In my pre-bedtime surfing I came across this thread: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php?showtopic=215969 Sounds like Stevie is on the right track...maybe something in there will be helpful (if you haven't already seen it)

[Xan]

Thanks, Kristin. Seems to me I looked at TOW salmon ... or read some ... oh, yeah. I was reading that it was a Diamond brand, and that there were some problems with it this last year, a recall, some people not happy with customer service .... But others very happy with it. I'll look at the ing.s again. Putting weight on her is SO important!

 

I found the Stevie thread yesterday afternoon! I actually took a note or two, and talked to my vet about ... something ... in that thread ... Brain not function so good no more. (We need an emotie for a brain falling out of the top of a head, or exploding, or something!)

 

On a possibly positive note, gave her plasma last night, and she pooped, twice, and they were handsome poops! She also *drumroll please!*

DRANK WATER FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OVER A WEEK!

 

She was even interested enough, at least for a couple tries, to play tricks for treats with the other dogs, so I managed to get a glob of slippery elm and a few kibbles into her.

 

Question for you slippery elm mavens. Really? Do your dogs eat it/drink it? Happy really was NOT interested, and it does have a strongly herby smell to it.

Another one: Do you do the boil it til it gels method, or the mix into a gruel and feed that method?

 

Thanks so much to all of you, for your support, information, and hugs. It makes such a huge difference, to feel I'm not really alone with this! *wobbly smile*

[greyhead]

Yikes on the budesonide $$!

 

Our vet phoned a rx into a compounding pharmacy in AZ, where it costs about $1/pill or so for the 2mg pills. We get 60 at a time.n (They also send a little free gift with each order -- usually something well-sized for a Pomeranian!)

 

Roadrunner Pharmacy, 711 E. Carefree Hwy, Suite 140, Phoenix, AZ 85085

toll-free: 877-518-4589

local: 623-434-1180

 

Shipping is free and they'll overnight the first order!

 

 

[3DogNite]

When I mixed up Slippery Elm:

HOT tap water. stir until it looks mushy, like baby food,, maybe a bit more runny than baby food.

I got a syringe (without the needle) and used that to squirt directly into the mouth, they pretty much have to swallow it then!

 

I could not get them to eat it on the food... didn't smell the greatest to me either.

 

That should do ya,, oh, I gave my boy aprox. 1 or 2 table spoons of the slippery elm mixture, 3 times in one day,, great to heal the everything inside and worked wonders on the Poop issues for my boy!

 

I don't know what a prolonged general dosage should be. I use it for more emergency Poop fix'n.

Edited November 18, 2009 by 3DogNite