Field Collars (E-Collars) For Greys -- Yay Or Nay?

[Guest bdoheny]

Apologies if anyone has already asked this before, I searched around in the forums but couldn't find anything.

 

My grey is used to having a fenced in yard to roam around in, but now we are relocating to a rural property with a lot of yard space but no possibility to put up a fence. I am trying to figure out the best option for him to still have some yard autonomy (i.e. be able to be out and enjoy wandering around a little vs. just being on a leash for walks). When I tie him up on a long line he tangles himself up in it or steps on it and seems miserable.

 

A relative of mine uses field collars (those electronic ones that can administer sound, vibration or electric shock) on her two dogs when she takes them out off-leash in open areas. One is an English setter that is a trained retriever, who was trained with this type of field collar, and the other is a lab/shepherd mix she adopted from a shelter and has only recently been training with the field collar. She claims she only had to use the actual electric shock option once or twice during the training process, and now the dogs respond to the tone without needing further reinforcement. I'd never heard of this kind of collar before and my first instinct was to think it seems cruel or dangerous, but I watched these dogs in action and they really seemed to work well.

 

So, has anyone heard anything about using this type of collar on a greyhound? We've all heard the horror stories of how greys that were highly recall trained and used to being off-leash have that one that time they uncharacteristically take off after some kind of prey and end up getting lost or injured or worse. For the hunting dogs that are field collar trained, if they take off single-mindedly when they are not supposed to, administration of a shock or tone from the collar stops them in their tracks. So, would it work for sighthounds? Has anyone tried it? Aside from the controversial nature of administering an electric shock to a dog, is there anything to be particularly concerned with, in using this type of a collar? It seems like it could be a really helpful tool, to have that extra something to break a prey drive "that one time" a grey takes off unexpectedly and doesn't respond to recall training... Thoughts? I'm just in the research phase of this and don't intend to try it until I am absolutely convinced it won't be harmful to my grey.

 

If anyone has other tips on how to use a long tie-out line with a grey, that would also be helpful! I don't intend to ever just tie him up and leave him unobserved, it would just be nice if he could roam around outside while we are doing yardwork or whatnot without having to be attached to me on a leash, but as aforementioned he keeps tangling himself up on the line we have tried so far. Thanks for any input!

[Time4ANap]

The consensus has always been that sight hounds are so focused if they are going after a target (prey) that they will not stop for one of those collars if going at full throttle. A long line isn't a good option as you've found out. The other problem is that they will dart across a road without looking or stopping.

 

If it were me, I'd probably just put an x-pen in a shaded area if I wanted the hound outside with me. Also do some squawker training and keep a squawker handy at all times if he responds to it. Rocket has been here almost 8 years, and we still do not leave the house without a squawker if he's with us. We know he responds to it, and it brought him back to us one time when he got out of a fenced area.

 

Edited to add - the other concern with going into a rural area is other predators such as coyotes. I would want to retain complete control of a leash to get the hound out of there if a predator wanders in. (We are thick with coyotes here, and they are bold. They routinely eat small dogs left outside, but may well attack a larger dog who is alone or running away.)

Edited August 18, 2016 by Time4ANap

[KickReturn]

Some points:

 

A greyhound can never be tied up unattended with any length of line.

 

Long line leash - if you have all the line out and the greyhound suddenly sprints toward and then past you at 70 km/h will you be able to to stop it without breaking it's neck before it gets to the end of the line? Or will you just let go of the line? Those might be your only two choices. Neither is good

 

Electric collars - I have no first hand experience but I would expect that with superior training and the right dog they could be useful. The problem is if the greyhound in question has some prey drive they may run through any distraction. My greyhound does not feel pain when he sees game.

 

IMO the most important consideration in the situation you describe is the true nature or your Greyhound. Will it ignore prey? Squirrels, rabbits, deer? If not I would strongly recommend against any free roaming. On the other hand if your grey will always return to you/your home, not because you called but rather because that is its preference, then free roaming is entirely possible and something I would encourage.

 

Maybe you will have to fence a smaller portion of your property for the dog.

Edited August 18, 2016 by KickReturn

[krissy]

I'm sure you're about to get a slew of replies to the negative.

 

My only input is that I think if I put an e-collar on any of my drama queens there would be screaming and flailing and someone would probably hurt themselves. And other dogs I think would run through the shock after prey. I know plenty of people who do use e-collars on occasion, and although I don't necessarily agree I also don't necessarily disagree because they're being used conscientiously, but their dogs are a lot more bull headed than my greyhounds are. One person used it on her young lab to keep him from jumping up on people we ran into on the trails (dogs are off leash, running into people is completely random and variable so hard to enforce through more typical means). Worked great and the dog listened to the collar but did not seem upset at all by it. Another friend uses one on her field pointer who tends to chase after birds. Again, works great and the dog isn't concerned by the collar, he actually comes to have it put on because he knows it means he's going running. Very happy-go-lucky, bomb proof dog though.

 

For the record, I'm one of those terrible owners that off leashes all the time. I think if the dogs are well trained, used to being off leash, and off leashed in sensible locations (i.e. those with limited prey and far from traffic) there's a fairly minimal risk of them running off or getting lost. As such I have not yet seen a reason to even entertain the idea of an e-collar. This does not mean I condone other people off leashing their greyhounds - most people don't put in the time to recall training that is required. And I know lots of people on this board probably think I'm an idiot, but my dogs are agility, disc, and SuperDogs... the ability to be off leash in unsecured locations is just a reality for them.

[smurfette]

It's cruelty and thank god those collars are banned here in Germany.

[Hubcitypam]

I wouldn't. In large part because I've seen too many dogs take the shock of electric fences and barrel on through...my friend's lab did it and they had to pay a huge lawsuit after Clara knocked a boy off his bike. If you're bound and determined to get at something as most sighthounds are your focus is all about the prey.

I how others on here have made inexpensive turn out areas using something like rebar and snow fencing.

[RedHead]

I am not entirely opposed to the underground e-fencing (had it for my old (non-grey) dog when I lived in the country on a huge property and it allowed her amazing freedom) but I wouldn't use it on most greyhounds, or any dog that happened to have any prey or chase instinct. Greyhounds are so fast, they could run through without even feeling the correction. Also, they have very thin skin and do tend to be very sensitive compared to most other breeds. I would think even the prongs that stick into the neck on the collar might irritate their skin.

 

I know most people say to never tether a greyhound, but I think depending on the dog (and with supervision) it can work. I have had to tie Teague up several times while camping, at the beach, etc. and he is fine. I ALWAYS tether him with a harness, not a collar and I also have him on a relatively short leash...not the long corkscrew cords that people typically have. If your grey ever bolts or runs at things though, maybe not a good idea. A lot just depends on the dog.

 

It may be easiest just to get an x-pen (or 2 for a larger area) and let your pup chill in that while you are outside. Unfortunately, greyhounds are not really the ideal "country" off-leash dog. I know it sucks, because it really would be fun for them to run with all that room. Maybe eventually you can put up some cheap cattle type fencing, so you can have a running field

[greysmom]

Most people just end up fencing a smaller dog run area near the house. No need to fence the entire acreage!

 

There's also the option to use temporary fencing like the orange plastic "snow fencing" you can get at big box home improvement stores. Those you can install with pound-in metal posts. Another friend of mine also used "cattle panels," which are taller and studier.

[Neighsayer]

Most people just end up fencing a smaller dog run area near the house. No need to fence the entire acreage!

There's also the option to use temporary fencing like the orange plastic "snow fencing" you can get at big box home improvement stores. Those you can install with pound-in metal posts. Another friend of mine also used "cattle panels," which are taller and studier.

That plastic fencing also comes in green or black.

[Guest WhiteWave]

I use e-collars and love them. All my dogs Greyhounds and other breeds are e-collar trained. I rarely use a leash and we go all over the woods. I would recommend using a trainer familiar with e-collars and having your dog and yourself correctly trained on how to use it.

[3greytjoys]

 

I'd agree to consider setting-up a portable 4’ tall metal exercise pen(s) in the shade (with water bowl) near you in the garden, or add some type of cheap metal roll fencing with fence stakes close to the house. The side of the house can work as one side of the safe enclosure. An ex-pen can be formed into a U- shape against the house, or opened wide as a flat fence (including it’s ready-made gate), secured with several metal fence posts.

 

Agree that Greyhounds should not be tethered to anything (except a human during leashed walks ). If tethered to an object, they can break their neck/strangle themselves if they see something interesting to chase, especially since Greys launch and propel to racing speeds up to 45 miles per hour within 3-5 strides.

 

E-collars: Greyhounds' necks and throats are much more sensitive than other breeds since Greyhounds have no protective fat layer; no undercoat of fur; and barely any outer layer of fur. These types of collars can cause physical neck, throat, and body damage, or worse to Greyhounds or other breeds. Also, many Greyhounds are highly sensitive emotionally. E-collar shocks can cause trauma and change the temperament of dogs by increasing fear, anxiety, aggression (even if there were no problems with aggression before using an e-collar), displaced aggression later towards other animals, owners, children, etc. E-collars on wet fur could be especially risky.

 

Recent example: Before e-collar use, a friend’s dog (different large breed) was happy, confident, inquisitive, and very affectionate. After short-term e-collar use (only 1 to 2 weeks) two years ago: dog became fear aggressive; hides in dark closets; hides on floorboard of car; is no longer confident around people; much more fearful and non-trusting of the dog’s owners, and other humans.

 

 

Here’s a web site snippet quote re: electronic collars:

“Electronic training devices rely on painful punishment and negative reinforcement, causing dogs to live in fear of being electrocuted for normal behaviors like crossing invisible lines [etc.]. Positive training methods, in which dogs are rewarded for what they do right, are kinder and more effective.

 

Dogs wearing shock collars can suffer from physical pain and injury (ranging from burns to cardiac fibrillation) and psychological stress, including severe anxiety and displaced aggression. Individual animals vary in their temperaments and pain thresholds; a shock that seems mild to one dog may be severe to another. The anxiety and confusion caused by repeated shocks can lead to changes in the heart and respiration rate or gastrointestinal disorders. Electronic collars can also malfunction, either administering nonstop shocks or delivering no shocks at all." End quote. http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/caring-animal-companions/dogs/electric-fences-shock-collars/

 

 

Please take a look at some E-collar data studies here: http://www.banshockcollars.ca/studies.php

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[GeorgeofNE]

Are you in the US? If so, did you get your greyhound from an adoption group? Because if you did, most likely the agreement you would have had to sign prohibits you from 1) tying your dog up; 2) letting it roam anywhere that is not fully fenced. There are good reasons for both of these, most of which have already been listed. WhiteWave is the exception, not the rule--I know she is a very experienced dog trainer, and she also lives in a place where she can "safely" do what she does--and that's fine. Most of us do not.

 

Every house we ever owned (when I was a kid and lived with my family and our four English Setters) the first thing Dad did was throw up a fence. The temporary fence was always what he called "deer fence." I don't know it's real name, but it's those green metal posts and the wire that is about 5 feet tall and coated with plastic/rubber. It's metal mesh, but doesn't rust because of the coating.

 

You could easily fence in a portion of the back yard--starting at the back door.

 

And honestly, leash walking is good for both of you!

[racindog]

Greyhounds cannot safely run free off lead or outside of a fenced area with extremely few exceptions- like trained performance dogs or certain rare areas with a professional handler. An e collar will ONLY work if used PROPERLY. You cannot read a pamplet and then think YOU are going to use it properly so unless you want to invest $$$ in a QUALITY collar (mine for my working dog cost approximately $500) AND a QUALITY trainer (also not cheap) you had better leave that idea alone. You have no idea the hell you can cause for a dog -irrevocably setting up 'superstitions etc in the dog- by strapping a cheap shocking device on them(especially a dog as sensitive as a houndie) and then thinking inexperienced you are going to e collar train them. This is what happens when people try it(from post above):

Recent example: Before e-collar use, a friend’s dog (different large breed) was happy, confident, inquisitive, and very affectionate. After short-term e-collar use (only 1 to 2 weeks) two years ago: dog became fear aggressive; hides in dark closets; hides on floorboard of car; is no longer confident around people; much more fearful and non-trusting of the dog’s owners, and other humans.

I don't want to know what ultimately happened to that poor dog-his happy life was robbed from him and he obviously was suffering constantly in his own private hell thanks to some STUPID human. The future for the now fear aggressive non social dog was probably not good.

IMO the reality is you will either have to find a way to confine your hound (ex pen or fence) or keep him on a leash. Turning him loose to see something and then chase it off to certain death etc is not an option if you really love and value him and want to keep him safe and happy. It is just the way things are. He is a greyhound hardwired to HUNT INDEPENDENTLY. Turning a machine like that loose where it will inevitably jump prey one day is a recipe for disaster imo.

Edited August 19, 2016 by racindog

[BatterseaBrindl]

First off...it is not an 'electric' collar. They run on radio frequencies. Yes.. It 'shocks' the dog, but it will not electrocute them or cause any sort of heart attack. It's just a radio signal.

We are very rural...80 acres. Mostly hay fields but plenty of wooded areas. We have never, ever allowed any of our dogs..no matter the breed...to be loose.

We used the E fencing very successfully on an acre close to the house, with several non-greys. We did not have any problems with unwanted critters such as coyote.

I had a remote collar for one of the Dobes...also thin skinned. She responded very well to it and the 'prongs' did not irritate her neck at all.

It takes a lot of recall training to get any dog 'honest' ...but I think Greys are tougher than most breeds.

So...here on our 80 acres we also have a chain-link fenced in 'dog yard' to contain our dogs.

The E fence was an added 'bonus' area for when we were outside with the dogs, but I really would not trust any of these 3 Greys to respect it. We sold the unit to a friend.

 

So... my question is...why can't you fence off a small area as a dog yard? Doesn't have to be big. Or get a couple of X pens.

Many suggestions have been made for types of fencing.

[Mercsmom]

In short, my answer is, no, not with a grey.

Here's my story:

My heart dog was a black lab/greyhound mix. When I got her, I was a single woman with a house on a half acre lot.

I bought an invisible fencing kit at Home Depot and installed it myself. (I was so proud of my initiative, hard work and $ savings [don't worry, I got my comeuppance]).

I tested the collar on myself, figured it was my obligation. Ouch!

Put the collar on Liberty and began the training.

When the collar shocked her, she sat down and scratched her neck.

That was it.

Only half greyhound and yet that big strong neck just didn't respond to the shock.

[Guest mgodwin]

I use e-collars and love them. All my dogs Greyhounds and other breeds are e-collar trained. I rarely use a leash and we go all over the woods. I would recommend using a trainer familiar with e-collars and having your dog and yourself correctly trained on how to use it.

 

I'm getting Ginny into training this weekend and I'm familiar with this trainer and know that she's a proponent of e-collars when used properly. I'm interested in knowing more about using an e-collar with Ginny and am curious what your experiences are.

[NeylasMom]

There is absolutely no need to train with shock collars, which rely on pain or fear to stop behavior. And anyone who tells you they don't has no understanding of how animals learn. By definition, in order for punishment to work (decrease the likelihood of the behavior being punished) the animal must find the punishment aversive. We know now through good scientific research and decades of animal training with positive methods that reward based training methods are as if not more effective than punishment based training without the myriad of potential negative side effects. Reward based training teaches our dogs what we want them to do, not just what we don't, while allowing us to maintain a healthy and loving relationship with our pets.

 

First off...it is not an 'electric' collar. They run on radio frequencies. Yes.. It 'shocks' the dog, but it will not electrocute them or cause any sort of heart attack. It's just a radio signal.

.

What the heck do you think is causing the dog to receive a shock? There are so many euphemisms for shock collars, but being told it's just a radio frequency is a first even for me. Maybe the remote communicates with the collar through radio frequencies, but don't deceive yourself, the collar itself is delivering an electrical shock to the dog.

 

"How They Work

Mechanically, a shock collar is designed to deliver varying levels of electrical shock to a dog. Jim Casey, a mechanical engineer with more than 35 years of experience, describes how they work:

 

In the collars, there are two terminals that contact the animal's skin. When the circuit is activated, one terminal is energized. The load is the animal's

flesh and the other terminal provides the ground return path. Note that even though the two terminals on the collar are only a few centimeters apart, the electricity follows the path of least-resistance. If

the skin is dry and non-conductive, the voltage in the collar is high enough so that the electricity can spark through the skin into moist, conductive tissue

underneath that is full of nerve endings. If the unit fails to work when the remote button is pushed, the operator may increase the intensity and the dog

receives a highly-intense shock rather than a gradual increase. The effect of the shock on the dog will vary. There is no way to determine how intense the

shock will feel because of variables such as the individuals skin thickness and coat, moisture on the skin, whether the

skin is broken or split and the level of electrolytes in bodily fluids."

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.petprofessionalguild.com/resources/Documents/The%2520Shocking%2520Truth.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi3nrG647PPAhWFWx4KHR9yApwQFggnMAQ&usg=AFQjCNEnrH9mM0Ird671bCkLe0NPeNacNQ&sig2=pdt3a78WvVQJtLerL95tmQ

 

If you want to use a shock collar to "train" your dog knowing there are more humane ways to do it, unfortunately that's still your right. But don't be deceived or try to deceive others. Call a spade a spade.

 

I'm getting Ginny into training this weekend and I'm familiar with this trainer and know that she's a proponent of e-collars when used properly. I'm interested in knowing more about using an e-collar with Ginny and am curious what your experiences are.

Please just don't. Let me know where you live and I will be happy to recommend some good trainers who can help you achieve your goals without the use of pain or fear. I'm a dog trainer and behavior consultant and unfortunately see not only the damage that punishment based training can do, but also how ineffective it can be. If your training skills aren't great using rewards, they won't be good using punishment. The difference is the worst that happens with ineffective reward based training is your dog progresses more slowly and is happy about all the extra rewards he's getting. With punishment, a poorly timed punishment can create fear, anxiety or aggression.

[3greytjoys]

Mgodwin: What training actions are you hoping to accomplish?

 

 

If your quote below was for Ginny, please reconsider your thoughts on aversive shock punishment training.

 

By mgodwin: "I fell in love with a beautiful 5 year old fawn girl. She's been difficult to place simply because she can, at times be quite aggressive toward other dogs, even other Greys, and doesn't do well with small children. So, she must be an only pet..."

End quote.

Thread link: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/312099-prepping-for-my-first-grey/?hl=mgodwin

 

 

IMO, a shock collar would most likely cause Ginny additional serious issues, potentially exacerbate her fear and aggression, damage her trust in humans, potentially increase handling difficulties for basic veterinary care, you or anyone else trying to handle her in emergencies or for simple home grooming teeth brushing and nail care.

 

 

Neylasmom is an excellent source to help direct you to positive, reward-based reinforcement trainers.

 

 

[Guest mgodwin]

Please just don't. Let me know where you live and I will be happy to recommend some good trainers who can help you achieve your goals without the use of pain or fear. I'm a dog trainer and behavior consultant and unfortunately see not only the damage that punishment based training can do, but also how ineffective it can be. If your training skills aren't great using rewards, they won't be good using punishment. The difference is the worst that happens with ineffective reward based training is your dog progresses more slowly and is happy about all the extra rewards he's getting. With punishment, a poorly timed punishment can create fear, anxiety or aggression.

 

I appreciate your concern. But please understand that at this point I'm simply trying to gather information. I have not made a decision yet and merely doing my research. I understand that greys are different than other breeds and could respond differently. The use of e-collars is only one avenue I'm considering and if that is the decision I make, know that it is not one I'm making on a whim. That is why I'm taking the time to fully vet all of the different approaches. As for positive only training, I'm not sold on it being effective. I don't believe in causing my dog harm or pain, however, when you consider pack structure for dogs and wolves alike, corrections are a part of how order is maintained. I'm willing to read any research on the topic that may convince me otherwise. But, at this point I'm just not sold on it.

 

Mgodwin: What training actions are you hoping to accomplish?

 

 

If your quote below was for Ginny, please reconsider your thoughts on aversive shock punishment training.

 

By mgodwin: "I fell in love with a beautiful 5 year old fawn girl. She's been difficult to place simply because she can, at times be quite aggressive toward other dogs, even other Greys, and doesn't do well with small children. So, she must be an only pet..."

End quote.

Thread link: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/312099-prepping-for-my-first-grey/?hl=mgodwin

 

 

IMO, a shock collar would most likely cause Ginny additional serious issues, potentially exacerbate her fear and aggression, damage her trust in humans, potentially increase handling difficulties for basic veterinary care, you or anyone else trying to handle her in emergencies or for simple home grooming teeth brushing and nail care.

 

 

Neylasmom is an excellent source to help direct you to positive, reward-based reinforcement trainers.

 

 

 

Thank you for your concern. The quote above is indeed about Ginny. However, a lot has changed in the year since I made that post. When that post was made, I was relying on information from the adoption group. Since I've had her though, I've yet to notice her be aggressive toward anything other than cats and squirrels.

[turbotaina]

 

I appreciate your concern. But please understand that at this point I'm simply trying to gather information. I have not made a decision yet and merely doing my research. I understand that greys are different than other breeds and could respond differently. The use of e-collars is only one avenue I'm considering and if that is the decision I make, know that it is not one I'm making on a whim. That is why I'm taking the time to fully vet all of the different approaches. As for positive only training, I'm not sold on it being effective. I don't believe in causing my dog harm or pain, however, when you consider pack structure for dogs and wolves alike, corrections are a part of how order is maintained. I'm willing to read any research on the topic that may convince me otherwise. But, at this point I'm just not sold on it.

 

 

Thank you for your concern. The quote above is indeed about Ginny. However, a lot has changed in the year since I made that post. When that post was made, I was relying on information from the adoption group. Since I've had her though, I've yet to notice her be aggressive toward anything other than cats and squirrels.

 

Dogs are not wolves. Dogs also know that you are not a dog. The below blog has lots of articles referenced/linked at the bottom. You don't need to be "sold on [positive reinforcement] being effective" - it's proven science.

 

https://positively.com/dog-training/positive-training/the-science-behind-positive-training/

 

There are also lots of sources cited at the end of this article specifically on the use of shock collars.

[GreyTzu]

Neyla's Mom is a trained and certified Professional Dog Trainer. As suggested in this thread, consider rethinking the e-collar and perhaps perform more research on positive training methods. Positive training, if performed consistently, thoughtfully, and constantly, will be successful is 99% of all dogs. Yes, there are a few that MAY need a more aggressive form of training. Dogs of this ilk need a professional trainer, you know, much like Neyla's Mom.

 

 

 

There is absolutely no need to train with shock collars, which rely on pain or fear to stop behavior. And anyone who tells you they don't has no understanding of how animals learn. By definition, in order for punishment to work (decrease the likelihood of the behavior being punished) the animal must find the punishment aversive. We know now through good scientific research and decades of animal training with positive methods that reward based training methods are as if not more effective than punishment based training without the myriad of potential negative side effects. Reward based training teaches our dogs what we want them to do, not just what we don't, while allowing us to maintain a healthy and loving relationship with our pets.

What the heck do you think is causing the dog to receive a shock? There are so many euphemisms for shock collars, but being told it's just a radio frequency is a first even for me. Maybe the remote communicates with the collar through radio frequencies, but don't deceive yourself, the collar itself is delivering an electrical shock to the dog.

"How They Work
Mechanically, a shock collar is designed to deliver varying levels of electrical shock to a dog. Jim Casey, a mechanical engineer with more than 35 years of experience, describes how they work:

In the collars, there are two terminals that contact the animal's skin. When the circuit is activated, one terminal is energized. The load is the animal's
flesh and the other terminal provides the ground return path. Note that even though the two terminals on the collar are only a few centimeters apart, the electricity follows the path of least-resistance. If
the skin is dry and non-conductive, the voltage in the collar is high enough so that the electricity can spark through the skin into moist, conductive tissue
underneath that is full of nerve endings. If the unit fails to work when the remote button is pushed, the operator may increase the intensity and the dog
receives a highly-intense shock rather than a gradual increase. The effect of the shock on the dog will vary. There is no way to determine how intense the
shock will feel because of variables such as the individuals skin thickness and coat, moisture on the skin, whether the
skin is broken or split and the level of electrolytes in bodily fluids."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.petprofessionalguild.com/resources/Documents/The%2520Shocking%2520Truth.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi3nrG647PPAhWFWx4KHR9yApwQFggnMAQ&usg=AFQjCNEnrH9mM0Ird671bCkLe0NPeNacNQ&sig2=pdt3a78WvVQJtLerL95tmQ

If you want to use a shock collar to "train" your dog knowing there are more humane ways to do it, unfortunately that's still your right. But don't be deceived or try to deceive others. Call a spade a spade.
Please just don't. Let me know where you live and I will be happy to recommend some good trainers who can help you achieve your goals without the use of pain or fear. I'm a dog trainer and behavior consultant and unfortunately see not only the damage that punishment based training can do, but also how ineffective it can be. If your training skills aren't great using rewards, they won't be good using punishment. The difference is the worst that happens with ineffective reward based training is your dog progresses more slowly and is happy about all the extra rewards he's getting. With punishment, a poorly timed punishment can create fear, anxiety or aggression.

 

 

 

 

Dogs are not wolves. Dogs also know that you are not a dog. The below blog has lots of articles referenced/linked at the bottom. You don't need to be "sold on [positive reinforcement] being effective" - it's proven science.

 

https://positively.com/dog-training/positive-training/the-science-behind-positive-training/

 

There are also lots of sources cited at the end of this article specifically on the use of shock collars.