Osteo Thread V

[4My2Greys]

It didn't click about how dangerous Doxyrubicin was until I read about the dangers of induction and then I remember a slide Dr. Couto had shown at a seminar of a greyhound whose vet had not been there to monitor the i.v. line and it had come out. It was ghastly what the Doxyrubicin did to that greyhound's leg. I just hope I'm not making the wrong decision with this.

Is there any advice anyone can offer as to supplements to give or avoid during this time? I've got high IG Colostrum on order to give his immune system a boost.

[tbhounds]

It didn't click about how dangerous Doxyrubicin was until I read about the dangers of induction and then I remember a slide Dr. Couto had shown at a seminar of a greyhound whose vet had not been there to monitor the i.v. line and it had come out. It was ghastly what the Doxyrubicin did to that greyhound's leg. I just hope I'm not making the wrong decision with this.

Is there any advice anyone can offer as to supplements to give or avoid during this time? I've got high IG Colostrum on order to give his immune system a boost.

Judy please contact Jason (twoskinnydogs) for the protocol he used with his Toby--it was Dr Couto designed :-). Toby did very well with the protocol-Jason claimed Toby had no serious side effects.

[Charlies_Dad]

Judy, our Charlie's chemo protocol was Doxyrubicin and he did fine on it. We tried to analyze which was better, Carbo or Doxy, and decided the latter after our vet reviewed the stats over and over again. The median length of survival was 2 months longer on Doxy based on the studies that were our there so that is what made our decision as we were originally going to go with Carbo. I hope it goes well for Bruiser.

[tbhounds]

It didn't click about how dangerous Doxyrubicin was until I read about the dangers of induction and then I remember a slide Dr. Couto had shown at a seminar of a greyhound whose vet had not been there to monitor the i.v. line and it had come out. It was ghastly what the Doxyrubicin did to that greyhound's leg. I just hope I'm not making the wrong decision with this.

Is there any advice anyone can offer as to supplements to give or avoid during this time? I've got high IG Colostrum on order to give his immune system a boost.

Judy please contact Jason (twoskinnydogs) for the protocol he used with his Toby--it was Dr Couto designed :-). Toby did very well with the protocol-Jason claimed Toby had no serious side effects.

I want to clarify - Jason was treating Toby for hemangiosarcoma.

[4My2Greys]

It didn't click about how dangerous Doxyrubicin was until I read about the dangers of induction and then I remember a slide Dr. Couto had shown at a seminar of a greyhound whose vet had not been there to monitor the i.v. line and it had come out. It was ghastly what the Doxyrubicin did to that greyhound's leg. I just hope I'm not making the wrong decision with this.

Is there any advice anyone can offer as to supplements to give or avoid during this time? I've got high IG Colostrum on order to give his immune system a boost.

Judy please contact Jason (twoskinnydogs) for the protocol he used with his Toby--it was Dr Couto designed :-). Toby did very well with the protocol-Jason claimed Toby had no serious side effects.

I want to clarify - Jason was treating Toby for hemangiosarcoma.

 

Thank you. We are going to go with Doxyrubicin at this point, but I have sent Jason a pm in hopes that he can advise me as to what else can be done in conjunction with the chemo.

[Zoolady]

Ben Update and question

 

Ben finished his six chemo treatments and had his sixth pamidronate today plus the six month x-rays. Some of what follows is from the written paper we get every time he's there.

X-rays of his chest are completely normal with no evidence of any spread of tumor to his lungs. Muscle mass looks normal, no lameness and weight is still good.

 

Here comes the part we could use your input on:

 

"On the x-rays of his pelvis the amount of bone that is abnormal has not changed. There is less destruction of bone that there was before. There is more proliferation of abnormal bone but that is not usually as painful as destruction of bone.

 

This is all very excellent news. The change in his tumor is quite minimal given that it has been 6 months since we last looked at it. This could mean that the medications are working extremely well or that the tumor itself is not what we expect it to be. It is theoretically possible that this is either an unusually slow growing osteosarcoma or it could be another type of cancer.

 

From here we have options in terms of how to proceed. We can continue pamidronate as a monthly therapy or not. This is designed to slow down the destruction of bone and to reduce bone pain. We can give him palladia or not. Palladia is designed to slow the growth of tumors in general. These decisions are independent of each other. You can give nothing and just plan to recheck him in about 3 months or we can give either or both therapies. If we are treating him I would recheck his x-rays in 3 to 6 months."

 

If we go ahead, the palladia would be added in 3 weeks and the pamidronate once a month.

 

She sent the x-rays home on disk but we can't open them. She had an emergency and wasn't able to meet with Scott when he picked Ben up. I think we need to make an appointment and go see them. We're not sure where this abnormal bone proliferation is coming from or why. Could it be the pamidronate?

 

She offered a biopsy but we prefer not to do that at this point.

 

So, what do you do? I asked her if Ben was her dog, what would she do. She reminded me what she does for a living and said the palladia and pamidronate.

 

We also have rimadyl and reglan for nausea when he doesn't want to eat (rare). He ran with the pack yesterday which was the first time in a long time, and had a great time but we didn't let him run for long.

 

So, do you say ok, he's had enough and what will be will be? Do you keep him on the rimadyl and go for the extended pamidronate and palladia (I think they only do palladia for six months) or do you do nothing and re x-ray in three months?

 

It's such a big decision so must get help from the power of GT please.

[Guest snakes]

A very big decision for you all and Ben.

Just our experience with fedX, keeping in mind we are doing palliative treatment only.

 

He has had 3 sets of xrays, the initial, the 3 month whihc was just before starting pamidronate, and at his 1 year mark. I wish i could post the pictures but i will try to describe them.

His tumor is in the front radius, for reference. The first xray showed bone destruction at the distal end of the bone and just starting to creep upwards. The three month showed it progressing up the bone slightly but a small deposit of bone near the front of the distal end of the radius. Then we had 3 doses of pamidronate about every 3-4weeks, then went to every 2 motnhs x2, and then at 3months after that, now it is just as needed for pain on no regular schedule (Seemed to work out to every 2-3months). At the one year mark the destruction of bone has crept further up the bone but there is bone growth/deposit at the front side of the bone that all the vets say could be due to either the pamidronate or that OS can make bony growth and well as destruction. I can see and feel teh growth in his leg. In fact after each time he has 'tweaked' the leg and had significant pain, it usually resolves leaving a 'lump' of bone.

No vet (of 4-5 that have seen him) thinks it is not OS, just a very slow growing one that is behaving unusual for OS (which I am thankfull for).

 

I don't know if that even helps you or not, but if you have any questions for us, feel free to ask. There is no easy decision I'm afraid....

[TwiggysMom]

I'm so glad that Ben has done so well with his chemo and that he is feeling good!

 

I think Snakes' description of FedX's progression sounds very similar to Ben's. Ben and FedX are both kicking cancer's butt!

 

If you think you want to try Palladia, I've got 11 50mg pills and 1 10mg pill left that I can't give to Twiggy. I've been holding on to it to see if anyone here might want it. Twiggy cannot tolerate Palladia, and I'd just bought a month's supply when her next dose proved that she simply can't tolerate any more of it. If you want to try it, PM me, and I can send it to you. Ben's dose would probably be 60 or 70mg per dose, so you'd probably need more of the 10mg pills, but those aren't too pricey.

 

I will say that reading about Palladia scared me, it does have some severe potential side effects, and Twiggy ended up having a much worse reaction to it than is typical, but it's my understanding that most dogs have few, if any, side effects from it. If you decide you don't want to use the Palladia, I'll probably send what I've got to OSU, so it could still be put to good use.

 

I'll also mention that while I was waiting at Twiggy's oncologist's office during her CT scan last week, at least 4 other cancer patients came in for rechecks, and they all went home with refills of Palladia, so it sounds like they have been tolerating it well.

[NeylasMom]

Great news for Ben!!

 

Bone proliferation is a normal part of osteosarcoma, in addition to the bone destruction. There is some evidence that IV pamidronate does promote bone growth, but my totally uneducated opinion is that may actually account for the decrease in bone destruction you see, not the proliferation. I would not second guess the osteosarcoma dx - my experience iwth my oncologists was that they were frustratingly unwilling to commit to a dx because they didn't have proof in the form of a biopsy and Neyla's wasn't progressing like they expected. But I think we've all seen that osteo can progress much more slowly, especially with the newer palliative treatments. And of course there's my theory that osteo is not fast progressing for quite some time (6 months, a year, maybe more?) and only progresses exponentially at the end, but that no one realized that because it had previously only been caught at the end.

 

All of this to say, I would probably continue what you've been doing since it seems to potentially be working. If he tolerates the pamidronate well, his kidneys are functioning at 100% still and cost isn't an issue, why not continue them? Since you were comfortable with the chemo treatments, Palladia seems like a reasonably option as well. You can always stop it if he has side effects. You could also consider artemisinin in addition to both of those treatments. I would certainly recommend it.

[dante2zoe]

I just wanted to say that I was a part of your club for 3 hours yesterday. Dante didn't get the opportunity to explore any options, but having read this before, I was glad to at least understand what I was facing. I am glad to hear the positive stories that some of you are having and the support that you have been able to give each other. Greyhound people are the best.

 

Cindy

[45MPHK9]

I so sorry for your loss, Cindy. Godspeed, Dante.

[4My2Greys]

Cindy, I'm so very, very sorry about Dante

[krissn333]

I'm so sorry, Cindy Whether or not your pup is still here, you are still part of the club. Do come here for support, we understand. There are still lots of our club members whose pups have left for the bridge that still pop in.

[teri_d]

hello old and new friends - teri here - i was one of the original "founders" of the first Osteo thread when our rivie was diagnosed in july of 2010. The thread was my lifeline with all of you for several months until rivie lost her battle - since then i don't visit gt much - and when i do, even if i start to post i just haven't been able to do it....can't even say exactly why -- and i really applaud those of you who have hung around and helped others through their battle - you are the very best. when i read cindy's post i just had to respond. cindy, i am so sorry for your loss and i am right there with you. we, too, were hit by os again last week - our win (whistler's win - 05/11/03 - 06/28/12). win had a broken right leg when we met/adopted him....didn't matter, but was always "weak - the bum leg". on tuesday evening we heard the gsod when it was walk time - he couldn't put any weight on his good left leg at all - not much better on wednesday - we took him in for x-rays on thursday morning and it showed os in knee of good left leg - lung x-rays just to confirm because there was no way to biopsy his only good back leg - yep - looked like 4 specs already on the lung - there was no choice - we loved on him, gave him some treats and sent him to the bridge on thursday - i HATE osteo

[Batmom]

Cindy and teri_d, I'm so sorry for your losses.

[NeylasMom]

Oh Teri, I'm so sorry that your reason for coming back to GT is to share this sad news. I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

And Cindy, I'm sorry for your loss as well.

[TwiggysMom]

Cindy and Teri, I am so sorry for your losses of Dante and Win.

 

I think the hardest way to lose a dog to osteo is to not even have any time to prepare.

 

You are all in my thoughts.

[MachosMom]

Hi everyone. I just joined, and am sad to say that I discovered this wonderful community because my baby has been diagnosed with this terrible thing. I have never felt so helpless in my life.

 

My baby is Macho. He is my first greyhound. I've only had him 10 months. He just turned 5 in January. I have a sneaking suspicion that he had this disease for a while before being a retired racer and coming into my home. But it doesn't matter now.

 

His tumor is on his rear left leg and is being very aggressive right now. We aren't even weight bearing. All options were given to us, and with support from a couple people in our adoption group, we have decided to go for pain management and make his days enjoyable as much as we can.

 

We had a rough Monday and Tuesday this week, but we are back to ourselves and alert and high spirits.

 

It's sad how quickly you can go from "I'll have him until he's in his teens" , to "Thank you for a great day with my baby". It's been hard to focus on my job and anything else. I have another dog (not a greyhound) so he keeps me moving too and has been an absolute sweetheart to Macho. I have several cats too, and they make sure to keep me on my toes

 

I am somewhere between crying at the drop of the hat and just being down right angry. I feel like this a perpetual state of mourning. You get the crappy news, then you have to watch the disease. You celebrate the good days, and get scared on a bad day.

 

Why us? He's only 5! Why does this tumor have to be so aggressive? He's such a sweet boy and I have enjoyed watching him become the boy he is. From zooming in the backyard, to riding in my car. To "Roooing" when I come home... to how he sometimes snorts food up his nose..and how fascinated he is with Guinea Pigs at the petstore. Things I thought I would get to experience for a really long time. Now we aren't rooing or zooming. We are otherwise still ourselves, and still look at me with those eyes that will get him anything he wants, including my hamburger.

 

I am trying to be positive for him, but I know he feels that my partner and I are upset even though we try to hide it. This just sucks.

 

And we're on the fence about adopting another baby...do we let him pick out the new member or do we wait until after that dreaded day that is mocking me, coming ever so closer to taking him from me?

 

Anyway, I am sorry to ramble, and sorry to meet you all under such heartbreaking circumstances.

[teri_d]

oh my heart hurts to read your post -- i am SO sorry for all you are going through - you will find lots of support and great info here -- and if you haven't already, there are previous osteo threads from the last 2 years. you will find all different choices and paths along the osteo road here. ramble - i think you did a great job, and we all here understand - welcome new friend - teri

[KF_in_Georgia]

Machosmom, I looked your boy up on the greyhound database. He's gorgeous! And those ears! I'm so sorry you're facing such heartache.

 

Love on him...and take lots of pictures. Ask questions about pain meds, if you need to. Unfortunately, there are a lot of experts on here.

[greysmom]

Many who are now currently a part of this thread have opted for the pain management route. There are a lot of things you can do to help make both you and your boy comfortable. Please be sure to read through the very first post in this thread. There's a lot on information and valuable links there.

 

You can always come here to ramble or to rant - we've all been there in some form or another. Be sad. Be mad. Love Macho like there's no tomorrow, because you never know when there won't be. Take lots of pictures. Spoil him rotten. Make a ton of good memories to hold on to through the tough times.

 

We lost our Dude after a nine month battle post-amputation, and I still miss him every single day. We have five other greyhounds to keep us busy, but he sneaks into our thoughts all the time. Only you can say what's right for your situation about adopting another, or even if you want to adopt another. Every large breed dog has some risk of getting some kind of cancer. It's a total crap shoot as to who will get it and who won't. If you do adopt again, there's always the possibility you will deal with cancer again. Still, for my own part, that risk (or certainty in our case, since we have multiple greys) isn't enough to give up on the breed. Greyhounds are wonderful dogs and I can't ever see a time when we won't have at least one.

[Charlies_Dad]

Cindy, I am truly very sorry for your loss of Dante.

 

Teri, when I saw your post a couple days past, I could not post as my breath was taken from me when you said your boy Win was diagnosed and passed. This disease has struck you again and I am so very sorry.

 

To Macho's mum, I am sorry your beautiful boy has been diagnosed so young. This is totally unfair and can only hope you spoil him rotten and give him a gentle hug from me. We are here for you if you have any questions or just need someone to talk to. May you have many more happy times with your boy.

[MachosMom]

Thanks everyone for the welcome.

 

I will try to get a couple photos posted of him soon. I am going photo crazy. I always take a lot of photos to begin with, this just ramped it up even more. Trying to enjoy every minute I have. (Makes it tough to go to work!)

 

I have slowly been reading my way through the threads and have already learned a great deal. What a wealth of information. Although I feel helpless, the history here has really helped me feel more capable of giving him more comfortable and happy days than rough days. That alone is priceless. Thank you, each and everyone of you. I am sorry that we all have experienced or are experiencing this.

 

We (My partner and I) have decided we will adopt again. Definitely. The Greyhounds are just too adorable not to. We understand that we won't find another like Macho. That's tough to take because, as you all know, it's their personality that just gets right into your heart. He's taught me a lot even before being diagnosed, and he teaches me everyday. I want to be able to share that with another Greyhound (or two or three one day!). We will wait until the right one comes. We met a few last week, and one was like a mini macho, but it just hasn't clicked like it did with him. When we went to look at Greys before getting him, he was love at first sight. Us for him, and him for us. I think he knew that we would take care of him no matter what.

 

I also believe he had the beginning stages of cancer before he was retired to adopt. We've always battled his weight, and then it just took off.

 

This morning was an awesome morning. He has a little swelling in his ankle below the tumor (tumor is at his kneww), that's from us overdoing the activity last weekend, and we are slowly improving on that front. He was ready to go outside and my other dog (a sherpard mix) and I had to jog to keep up with him on his leash. It was wonderful and I enjoyed every minute.

 

I am sorry that we're all here dealing with this, but I want you all to know how much it means to me, even as a newbie, to have this support and know that I hope I can repay the favor a hundred times over. I know i'm in for some really rough times, and can't fathom the day i don't see his smile. For now, I will be glad this morning he was smiling and happy.

 

I know I'll have questions - but I'm still trying to read what's already here and take notes and make adjustments. You all have given me a little bit of power I didn't think I had with this beast.

 

I'll stop rambling now (one of these times I'll have a short post! )

[teri_d]

machos mum - sounds like you are right on track - nope, never stop rambling!

 

kyle - how are you guys doing?? - talk about taking your breath away - when i saw your post re: jack i cried right along with you - we have both been given a swift kick again. i am SO sorry your jack had to leave you. are you still just in shock?? my feelings are very strange this time....for the first few days all i could do was the "ugly cry" and i felt as if i just couldn't get my breath. but i have been totally at peace with decisions because, well, there just weren't any decisions. i am, however, worried sick about our "survivor" - bleu has hardly come out of the closet in the last week - between the fireworks and losing her best buddy - she is taking this really hard.....any suggestions? the frozen yogurt treats i got her seem to be the only good thing in her life the last week.

[Guest snakes]

Sorry to hear about Macho, any and all questions or rambling, feel free to come here, we will help as much as we can.

Edited July 6, 2012 by snakes