Osteo Thread V

[vjgrey]

Awww...Pinky. :beatheart

[krissn333]

I need to get a video of her busting out the door with Ace right after I come home Most of the time beyond their initial romp, they all just meander around the yard so it's tough to get a good video of her running,

[Guest cashie]

Go Pinky! So glad she is doing well:)

[Charlies_Dad]

Good thoughts for Cash. I hope you are able to make him comfortable.

 

For Tristan's mom, Kristen is correct, chemo does not start until after stitches are out so that is usually 2 weeks out. Here are some pics to help you see what a tripod is all about. My Charlie boy. Missing him every single day.

 

You can't see much in this picture but this is Charlie going nuts as a tripod. You can see Jack, our four legged boy being himself and totally calm. Quite the difference between the two. Both are gone now though...

 

Here he goes running with his stuffies as a tripod

 

Here he is hauling butt after a youngin, 5 years his junior

 

This is his, 'you can't catch me'

 

Going ape again for his stuffies

 

 

This is Charlie on the left ahead of our 4 legged boy Jack chasing squirrels

 

Hauling butt in the snow, of course with a stuffie

 

So full of life

 

One legged!

 

And again one legged!!

 

This boy was amazing and warmed my heart how much he enjoyed life as a tripod. Don't ever let anyone tell you they 'won't be normal again'. That's poppycock to put it bluntly.

[Guest cashie]

Love the pictures! Both of your boys are gorgeous! Charlie looks like he was such a fun and happy guy:)

 

Got Rimadyl and Gabapentin to go along with Tramadol from the vet this morning. My vet was reluctant to give it to him as he felt that if Cash doesn't have any pain he will put too much stress on that leg and will be at risk for a fracture. I understand how he feels and will watch him closely but anything has to be better than eating, sleeping, struggling to go outside, struggling to come back in, eating, sleeping, etc.

[NeylasMom]

My vet was reluctant to give it to him as he felt that if Cash doesn't have any pain he will put too much stress on that leg and will be at risk for a fracture.

Sorry, but no no and no. You cannot keep a dog with osteo in pain just to reduce the risk of fracture. One, it could happen anyway. There are countless dogs on this site whose first indication of the disease was a leg break. Second, it's cruel to knowingly keep a dog in pain imo. Either you are willing to risk the fracture by providing palliative care or you let the dog go.

 

That is totally my opinion (wanna' know how I really feel? ) and directed at your vet of course, not you.

 

ETA: Honestly, I'm a little horrified that a vet would be reluctant to give you pain meds for that reason. I also think many "regular" vets aren't familiar enough with pain management for cancer, which is why I encourage people to at least have your vet consult with an oncologist. You can always do an initial consult, and then moving forward the oncologist will work with your vet to advise you, you can continue to get meds from your vet, etc. Just something to keep in mind for all the folks with pups newly diagnosed.

Edited July 14, 2012 by NeylasMom

[Guest snakes]

My vet was reluctant to give it to him as he felt that if Cash doesn't have any pain he will put too much stress on that leg and will be at risk for a fracture.

Sorry, but no no and no. You cannot keep a dog with osteo in pain just to reduce the risk of fracture. One, it could happen anyway. There are countless dogs on this site whose first indication of the disease was a leg break. Second, it's cruel to knowingly keep a dog in pain imo. Either you are willing to risk the fracture by providing palliative care or you let the dog go.

 

I somewhat agree with NeylasMom, but i think i understand the vets point of view, even if they didn't express it well. If I take 100% of FedX's pain away he gets very bouncy, exuberant, and tries to run and jump around, This ultimately leads, and usually quickly, to his 'tweaking' his leg and not beign able to walk much at all for a week or two. I learned that the hard way at the beginning.

He was at much higher risk for fracture just based on his activity level.

His pain is very well controlled now, but to my trained eye i can still see it a little, especially when he first gets up. Rarely does anyone else notice when we are out.

 

My suggestion is to try the medications and just make him as comfortable as possible yet don't let him get too crazy (easier said than done, trust me!). You know your pup better than anyone.

[RaineysMom]

Love the pictures! Both of your boys are gorgeous! Charlie looks like he was such a fun and happy guy:)

 

Got Rimadyl and Gabapentin to go along with Tramadol from the vet this morning. My vet was reluctant to give it to him as he felt that if Cash doesn't have any pain he will put too much stress on that leg and will be at risk for a fracture. I understand how he feels and will watch him closely but anything has to be better than eating, sleeping, struggling to go outside, struggling to come back in, eating, sleeping, etc.

 

the pictures of all the pups are wonderful!!! :)

 

we took Nube to get chest x-rays this afternoon -- vet thinks they look clear but will have a radiologist look at them too (won't know until Monday probably). We also asked for gabapentin -- he gave it to us but said we'd have to stop the Tramadol?? Right now he's on 150mg of the Tramadol 3 x day and 75mg of Rimadyl 2 x day -- and the instructions for the gabapentin is just 100mg 1 x day (which seems low?). I think we're going to give him the 1 pill of gabapentin tomorrow morning, but unsure about entirely stoping the Tramadol, especially since I think I read it can take a couple days for the gabapentin to get to full force. We may give 1 (50 mg) Tramadol maybe mid-day?

 

any thoughts?

[KF_in_Georgia]

We also asked for gabapentin -- he gave it to us but said we'd have to stop the Tramadol?? Right now he's on 150mg of the Tramadol 3 x day and 75mg of Rimadyl 2 x day -- and the instructions for the gabapentin is just 100mg 1 x day (which seems low?). I think we're going to give him the 1 pill of gabapentin tomorrow morning, but unsure about entirely stoping the Tramadol, especially since I think I read it can take a couple days for the gabapentin to get to full force. We may give 1 (50 mg) Tramadol maybe mid-day?

 

any thoughts?

 

Sam takes 4 (or 6) x 100mg Gabapentin: he takes two at a time, two or three times a day. He also takes 2 (or 3) x 50mg tramadol: he takes one at a time, two or three times a day. He's not on an NSAID (different issues). He also takes 2 (or 3) x 5oomg methocarbamol (a muscle relaxer): 1 at a time, two or three times a day.

 

In cold weather--or if he just seems "off"--Sam gets pills at breakfast, dinner, and bedtime. Otherwise, when he's doing well, he gets the pills at breakfast and dinner, and he still sleeps through the night without any problems.

 

We built up to the Gabapentin slowly: we did 1 capsule (of 100mg), three times a day. This was in the winter, and he still wasn't feeling great, so after about three days, we stepped up to 2 capsules one time a day, and 1 capsule the other times. We gradually stepped up to where we are now--two capsules at a time, given two or three times a day.

 

Dogs have been known to appear anxious on larger doses of tramadol: panting, pacing, and other "off" behavior. My vet says two tramadol as often as three times a day would be okay, but I haven't needed to try that and hope I won't have to. One bad, cold day, he had four tramadol--one about every six hours.

 

 

Fingers crossed for good news from the radiologist.

 

 

ETA: You're right. It supposedly takes about 48 hours for gabapentin to get to full effectiveness.

Edited July 14, 2012 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest cashie]

Wow, I didn't mean to make my vet look totally incompetent. NeylasMom, I LOVE that you are automatically protective of my boy without even knowing him (thanks for that!), and thank you to Snakes for clarifying what I neglected to expand on. My vet has readily admitted that he is out of his element on Osteo and has offered to refer me to an oncologist many times in the past few weeks. I chose not to take Cash to a new doctor that he doesn't know since he has such a hard time going to the vet in the first place and had a terrible experience when I switched briefly a few years ago. Even today, the second he realized where we were he decided he wasn't getting out of the car and had one of his "meltdowns." It took 15 minutes of sweet talking him to get him to come out of the car. He trembles uncontrollably until the vet comes in, gets down on all fours with him, talks to him and pets him until he calms down. He doesn't want him to be "in pain" but doesn't want him to feel 100% normal so that he isn't somewhat careful. I have been emailing Dr. Kellogg at OSU and she suggested the same meds that everyone here suggested as well, and when I mentioned that to my vet he was immediately on board, just wanted me to watch him closely while on them. I just feel like his quality of life took a drastic turn for the worse this week and I wanted to do something to help him. I do have an appointment at OSU on the 23rd of this month just in case the new meds don't help.

 

Raineysmom, we weren't told to discontinue Tramadol by our vet or Dr. Kellogg at OSU.

[JJNg]

No reason to stop the tramadol. It's very common to use all 3 meds (NSAID + tramadol + gabapentin) together, and they work better together than alone.

 

The dose range for gabapentin is very wide, and some of the literature lists a very low, once-daily dose for pain. Most vets who have experience using it are comfortable going much higher, and using it more in the range of the anti-seizure doses. It is often recommended to start low and build up gradually with gabapentin to reduce the sedative side effects. For a greyhound, I usually start with 100 mg 2-3 times daily, but you can easily increase to 300 mg 3 times daily. When I was dealing with acute, severe (non-osteo) pain with my 56 lb female, I started her right on 300 mg every 8 hours, and had no side effects (but significantly improved pain relief - she was also on Previcox and tramadol).

 

If your vet is not familiar with the use of these medications, alone or in combination, consider asking them to consult with an oncologist, or the OSU greyhound program (the Consultation Service page has phone numbers for vets to call with question), or even a pain specialist. I attended a weekend seminar by a pain specialist not too long ago, and I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to your vet. The lecturer was Dr. Mark Epstein at Carolinas Animal Pain Management.

[NeylasMom]

He doesn't want him to be "in pain" but doesn't want him to feel 100% normal so that he isn't somewhat careful.

I don't mean to seem like I'm picking on your vet (or you), but what is not normal if not in pain? A lesser degree of pain perhaps, but still pain. The problem is, our dogs can't talk to us so all we have to go on is visible signs. Knowing that the dog has enough discomfort to keep him from normal activity coupled with the fact that we know our dogs can be stoic when it comes to these things and I personally would not be comfortable with that recommendation.

 

Of course all that matters is that you are.

 

And Raineysmom, yes to what JJng said - all 3 meds are typically used in combination. Your vet may have been concerned about a cumulative sedative effect, but I wouldn't worry. He has you starting on a pretty low dose so I would add it in without changing other meds for the time being and see how it goes.

 

Hope everyone's pups are having a good weekend.

[Guest patterpaws]

Wow, those pics are great! Pinky is so cute <3 Her stump doesn't look very bad at all! Amazing that she doesn't even have a scar.

 

The pics of Charlie are amazing! Man, I think those really illustrate how full of life they can be after amputation. I especially love those with his stuffies XD

 

Still weighing all of the options, so glad to have all of this information and be able to read about all of your houndies. Will be keeping my fingers crossed for Nube's xrays! I wish I had something helpful to say about the medications, hoping everyone finds the right combinations to keep pain away.

[Guest patterpaws]

Does anybody know if there is any pain medicine I can get on a Sunday thats not prescription? My vet didn't give us enough Tramadol to last the weekend (I was stupid and just realized this last night!) She only gave us 15 pills even tho we paid for 90. No emergency clinic will give me 2 pills to last us through tonight without an exam. If it comes to it I will take him in to see yet another vet, traumatize him yet again and pay $90 just to get 2 pills but that just seems ridiculous.

 

It already seems that I need to up the dose too, but I've been holding back. If I don't get more he will have to go without tonight. We just gave him the last 1.5 pills this morning.

Edited July 15, 2012 by patterpaws

[RaineysMom]

Does anybody know if there is any pain medicine I can get on a Sunday thats not prescription? My vet didn't give us enough Tramadol to last the weekend (I was stupid and just realized this last night!) She only gave us 15 pills even tho we paid for 90. No emergency clinic will give me 2 pills to last us through tonight without an exam. If it comes to it I will take him in to see yet another vet, traumatize him yet again and pay $90 just to get 2 pills but that just seems ridiculous.

 

It already seems that I need to up the dose too, but I've been holding back. If I don't get more he will have to go without tonight. We just gave him the last 1.5 pills this morning.

 

I wish you were closer, I have plenty of Tramadol if you call your regular vet, is there an answering service or anything you can leave a message with or a emergency # to call for one of the vets?

 

We ended up giving Nube a single (50mg) Tramadol around 10am this morning (started the Gabapentin this morning) since he's even worse today he really stressed out yesterday at the vets getting the chest x-ray and stood for at least 10-15 minutes in total, which really strained his bad leg we'll continue giving at least a single T on his regular (5:30am, 1:30pm and 9:30pm) routine since I don't think the G is doing anything yet

 

from what you guys are saying, 100mg of Gabapentin per day is an extremely low dose?

[Charlies_Dad]

 

 

from what you guys are saying, 100mg of Gabapentin per day is an extremely low dose?

 

Yes. We give our Shelby 200mg a day for her back issues. With Osteo, the pain as you know is a lot worse. At one time I know Charlie right after his amp I believe was on 400mg of Gabapentin a day but would have to confirm that.

[Guest snakes]

To reply to a bunch of posts:

I don't see any reason to stop the tramadol while using gabapentin, we have used both together with no problems, even at one point having 300mg gabapentin 3x/day and 50mg tramadol 3x/day. I do think starting lower on gabapentin is good, but 100mg once a day won't do much in my experience, we started at 100mg twice a day and worked up from there.

Try to stay sane, it is exceptionally hard to wait for the pain meds to go into full effect!

[Batmom]

Does anybody know if there is any pain medicine I can get on a Sunday thats not prescription? My vet didn't give us enough Tramadol to last the weekend (I was stupid and just realized this last night!) She only gave us 15 pills even tho we paid for 90. No emergency clinic will give me 2 pills to last us through tonight without an exam. If it comes to it I will take him in to see yet another vet, traumatize him yet again and pay $90 just to get 2 pills but that just seems ridiculous.

 

It already seems that I need to up the dose too, but I've been holding back. If I don't get more he will have to go without tonight. We just gave him the last 1.5 pills this morning.

 

There really isn't an OTC med that is safe if you're already giving a NSAID (Rimadyl, Deramaxx, Metacam) or prednisone. Perhaps there's someone in your adoption group who could spot you a couple Tramadol until tomorrow? Sending best wishes.

[RaineysMom]

ok, now Nube has horrible diarrhea I Googled gabapentin and it IS a potential side effect, but not very common

 

has anyone else's dog gotten diarrhea from this med?

 

I also started him on a new diet (which obviously could be the culprit) -- a low-carb diet, mostly (3/4) chicken, a little beef and a little salmon (cooked) along with a smaller (1/4) amount of pulverized veggies (kale, broccoli, carrots, a few others). He's getting 2/3 of his old Canidae (dry) and 1/3 of the new stuff, so not sure if this is it. He's always gotten meat (usually chicken) and veggies (usually green beans) with every meal so the low-carb stuff really isn't that unusual for him? There's also some flax seed (like 1.5 tbs per 12 cups of mix) in it too, maybe that's the culprit... ?

Edited July 15, 2012 by RaineysMom

[45MPHK9]

Bee Wiseman never had diarrhea from Gapapentin. Sorry Nube is struggling today.

[NeylasMom]

ok, now Nube has horrible diarrhea I Googled gabapentin and it IS a potential side effect, but not very common

 

has anyone else's dog gotten diarrhea from this med?

 

I also started him on a new diet (which obviously could be the culprit) -- a low-carb diet, mostly (3/4) chicken, a little beef and a little salmon (cooked) along with a smaller (1/4) amount of pulverized veggies (kale, broccoli, carrots, a few others). He's getting 2/3 of his old Canidae (dry) and 1/3 of the new stuff, so not sure if this is it. He's always gotten meat (usually chicken) and veggies (usually green beans) with every meal so the low-carb stuff really isn't that unusual for him? There's also some flax seed (like 1.5 tbs per 12 cups of mix) in it too, maybe that's the culprit... ?

My guess would be the diet changes over the Gabapentin although anything can happen. Neyla did not have any stomach issues with the Gabapentin.

[joejoesmom]

Regarding tramadol (although this advice is probably too late):

 

Call the vet, they can phone a prescription into a human pharmacy. It is a very common human drug. Around here, both Giant Eagle and Kroger's have it on their $4/$10 list. $4 for 60 tablets, $10 for 180. Costco sells 180 tablets for less than $11.

 

Jane

[Guest cashie]

Poor Nube:( Hope he feels better. Cash started his Gabapentin today, no diarrhea but seems a little spacey. Maybe he is just a little out of it still from yesterdays vet visit. He definitely perked up when I made him his chicken dinner!

 

Just read about the Tramadol-I'm paying way too much! Definitely having my vet write a script from now on!!

Thanks:)

[tbhounds]

Poor Nube:( Hope he feels better. Cash started his Gabapentin today, no diarrhea but seems a little spacey. Maybe he is just a little out of it still from yesterdays vet visit. He definitely perked up when I made him his chicken dinner!

 

Just read about the Tramadol-I'm paying way too much! Definitely having my vet write a script from now on!!

Thanks:)

They can get wonky on the gabapentin until the body adjusts. Are you starting with 100mg capsules?

[RaineysMom]

ok, now Nube has horrible diarrhea I Googled gabapentin and it IS a potential side effect, but not very common

 

has anyone else's dog gotten diarrhea from this med?

 

I also started him on a new diet (which obviously could be the culprit) -- a low-carb diet, mostly (3/4) chicken, a little beef and a little salmon (cooked) along with a smaller (1/4) amount of pulverized veggies (kale, broccoli, carrots, a few others). He's getting 2/3 of his old Canidae (dry) and 1/3 of the new stuff, so not sure if this is it. He's always gotten meat (usually chicken) and veggies (usually green beans) with every meal so the low-carb stuff really isn't that unusual for him? There's also some flax seed (like 1.5 tbs per 12 cups of mix) in it too, maybe that's the culprit... ?

My guess would be the diet changes over the Gabapentin although anything can happen. Neyla did not have any stomach issues with the Gabapentin.

 

he's been eating it since like Thursday, that was just veggies (carrots, celery, green beans pulverized in the food processor, raw) and cooked salmon and has been fine. Yesterday, I made a big batch to freeze and cooked 20 lbs of chicken, about 3 lbs of beef and mixed it with the remaining salmon and veggies and added the kale, broccoli and tomatoes, and the milled flax seed. My guess is the flax seed, most likely. I have about 12 lbs of this made up now. The cancer diet recipe called for 1 tablespoon for every 3 lbs of meat and that's about what I used -- I may have put slightly more (since I was making so many batches) but not much more than 1 tbs.

 

I just gave him cooked chicken breast and beans instead of the mixture and 2/3 of his Canidae (which is 1 cup) for dinner tonite. My boy can hardly walk to go out the 4 times he is going now and with horrible diarrhea, this will make him have to go out more I am just sick.

Edited July 15, 2012 by RaineysMom