Questions About Giardia- Update Post # 30

[Time4ANap]

Rocket has been having stomach issues for several weeks. We've pretty much ruled out a food issue and even tried a switch to a new food since we've had to do that in the past, but to no avail.

 

Fecal was negative for parasites. We are on our 2nd round of Flagyl. He was also prescribed KaoPectalin, a probiotic, which seemed to intensify the diarrhea and bloody mucus.

 

I have strongly suspected that he has Giardia for a week or so, but the vet has not yet tested for it since it often doesn't show up anyway. I received some info from a friend who works for a vet in Indianapolis (about 120 miles from here) that they are seeing a dramatic increase in Giardia cases, and he has been boarded in Indy about 2 weeks before his symptoms developed.

 

If you've had a hound with Giardia or have experience with it, what has worked? Would you go ahead and do preventive round of panacur at this point without a Giardia test? I'm thinking that we need to, as we are going on week 3 of the issue. (He does seem to have the symptoms of Giardia, but many of those symptoms are common to other issues as well)

 

We are still cooking for him, and he is getting up in the middle of the night with the worst sounding stomach growls and squeals I've ever heard. Giving him some chicken and rice makes the noises stop, and he goes back to sleep. This is usually around 4:30 AM, and his last feeding is usually around 9PM before bed.

 

Thoughts from those who have been through Giardia?

Edited May 22, 2012 by Time4ANap

[hikinghounds]

My boys had what the vet suspected was giardia a few months ago. The metronidazole didn't completely clear it. So, she prescribed tinidazole, which had to be compounded for them. It got rid of it and their stools returned to normal.

[robinw]

Ugh. I had it in Africa I had the same problems that you've described. Lots of antibiotics cleared it up.

[Time4ANap]

My boys had what the vet suspected was giardia a few months ago. The metronidazole didn't completely clear it. So, she prescribed tinidazole, which had to be compounded for them. It got rid of it and their stools returned to normal.

 

Thanks. That's good info to know.

[Fiona3]

One of our five dogs was tested several times for Giardia and it was missed until they used the SNAP test which was more sensitive. He had a nasty case causing diarrhea, weight loss, etc. All five dogs were treated with Panacur and then retested after the appropriate time had passed. Eventually when all 5 stool samples were clear, it was discontinued. It took a few months but was worth the effort.

 

I would suggest you see if the SNAP test can be used to get a diagnosis.

[Time4ANap]

One of our five dogs was tested several times for Giardia and it was missed until they used the SNAP test which was more sensitive. He had a nasty case causing diarrhea, weight loss, etc. All five dogs were treated with Panacur and then retested after the appropriate time had passed. Eventually when all 5 stool samples were clear, it was discontinued. It took a few months but was worth the effort.

 

I would suggest you see if the SNAP test can be used to get a diagnosis.

 

Thanks! I'm going to give it the weekend to see if there's any improvement on this 2nd round of Flagyl, but want to have a plan if there's no improvement.

[Remolacha]

Fletcher had it a few years ago, a round of panacur cleared it up. I don't remember for sure, but I think it took at least two tests fo it to show up. Nasty stuff >( One thing that has really helped Fletcher's tummy gurgles is about a tsp of Manuka honey

[NeylasMom]

I've read that Flagyl is often not 100% effective for Giardia and Panacur, or giving both in combination is preferred. I thought a fecal routinely checked for intestinal and bacterial parasites, did your vet specifically tell you that she didn't test the stool sample for Giardia?

 

I do wonder if now the Flagyl might interfere with getting true test results. I don't know either way, but am thinking about other similar situations where test results can be compromised. In theory, I think it's best to get a reliable positive test result, so you can know what you are treating, but also determine if it's cleared up after treatment with a recheck, but with parasites that isn't always possible, in which case I would certainly treat prophylactically with Panacur if the symptoms were there.

 

I'm having a similar issue with Violet FYI. I keep going back and forth between there's nothing wrong with her and she has Giardia or Whipworms. I'm going to have to get another fecal in. Really wish my vet were closer to me, it's such a PITA to just drop a sample off. But even if it's negative, I think I'm going to treat.

[Beachbum1]

Sending "gentle hugs" to Rocket from us

[Scooby172]

Jack had giardia two treatments of Panacur and metronidazole were needed to clear it up. He had some diarrhea, bad gas which had a very distinct odor and his coat was in poor condition. My vet said it is hard to treat. Jack is actually due to get another stool sample checked at the end of this month to make sure it is gone. Good luck.

Linda, Keeva and Jack

[Time4ANap]

I've read that Flagyl is often not 100% effective for Giardia and Panacur, or giving both in combination is preferred. I thought a fecal routinely checked for intestinal and bacterial parasites, did your vet specifically tell you that she didn't test the stool sample for Giardia?

 

I do wonder if now the Flagyl might interfere with getting true test results. I don't know either way, but am thinking about other similar situations where test results can be compromised. In theory, I think it's best to get a reliable positive test result, so you can know what you are treating, but also determine if it's cleared up after treatment with a recheck, but with parasites that isn't always possible, in which case I would certainly treat prophylactically with Panacur if the symptoms were there.

 

I'm having a similar issue with Violet FYI. I keep going back and forth between there's nothing wrong with her and she has Giardia or Whipworms. I'm going to have to get another fecal in. Really wish my vet were closer to me, it's such a PITA to just drop a sample off. But even if it's negative, I think I'm going to treat.

 

Once I found out that the Indy vets were seeing a big increase in Giardia cases, i called the vet to see if they had checked for it. The fecal test they use initially doesn't check for it. I've never had a basic fecal test come back positive for anytiing, and don't put much faith into them. When he was negative for worms previously, we happened to take a night walk and using my bright flashlight to pick up poop I found a "grain of rice" in the stool that was waving at me.

 

We have been through this bloody mucous like stool issue several times in the past, and usually Flagyl and a food change has taken care of it. We were usually able to confirm a manufacturer change in the food those times, so wrote it off to that. Others seemed to have similar issues with those foods when it happened. There has been nothing like that this time. Having nursed him back the previous times, I know that this time is different, and I'm really thinking he has picked up Giardia. if not from exposure to another dog when he was boarded, then maybe from droppings on our walking route. We have a number of dog owners locally who feel that if there isn't a house on that part of the sidewalk, then you don't have to pickup. That's a separate rant and an issue i'm about to take up with the HOA.

 

I am probably going to request a SNAP test, and if our vet doesn't do that one, I will take him over to the clinic at University of IL VetMed to have it done. I've read your other posts about Violet's issues recently and kind of wondered the same things you've brought up. Hope she's feeling better soon

 

 

Jack had giardia two treatments of Panacur and metronidazole were needed to clear it up. He had some diarrhea, bad gas which had a very distinct odor and his coat was in poor condition. My vet said it is hard to treat. Jack is actually due to get another stool sample checked at the end of this month to make sure it is gone. Good luck.

Linda, Keeva and Jack

 

I call that smell a "blood smell" if that's the same one you are describing. It also smells sort of like stagnant water to me. There is no mistaking it, and it's one of the reasons I'm leaning toward Giardia as the issue. Glad to hear that Jack is doing ok.

 

Thanks for the good wishes everyone. Rocket doesn't know it, but he has tons of friends here.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Time4ANap

[greypuppyluv]

The last whippet foster I brought in came with giardia, but was already getting treated for it. Our regional adviser is also a breeder and has had problems with giardia in the past, so she told me to treat it aggressively. It was a few months ago and my memory sucks, but I think we treated with 7 days of Flagyl, then 5 days of Panacur, then 7 more days of Flagyl. I'd have to recheck the bottle and order form when I get home to make sure. From what I've heard about giardia, once a dog gets it, the dog is more prone to having flare-ups from it again if there are stressful events going on.

 

Good luck. I know it can be hard to get rid of and I've also heard it's horrible to have to experience.

[Fostr_Mom]

Kyle had it twice, when we first fostered and then adopted him. Loose, smelly stool, strange color, lethargic. He was treated with Panacur and metronidazole. He also had to be bathed 2x a week, and I had to wash my hands constantly as well as wash down the backyard. I would walk behind him, pick up right away and spray the area down. We also had to keep him away from other dogs, so no meet and greets for us. He did not have a gurgly tummy though. Just very low-key, not feeling good behavior. Hope you figure out what is going on soon. Give Rocket a hug from me. He's one of my favorites!

[greypuppyluv]

Kyle had it twice, when we first fostered and then adopted him. Loose, smelly stool, strange color, lethargic. He was treated with Panacur and metronidazole. He also had to be bathed 2x a week, and I had to wash my hands constantly as well as wash down the backyard. I would walk behind him, pick up right away and spray the area down. We also had to keep him away from other dogs, so no meet and greets for us. He did not have a gurgly tummy though. Just very low-key, not feeling good behavior. Hope you figure out what is going on soon. Give Rocket a hug from me. He's one of my favorites!

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about the cleanliness thing. I got baby wipes and wiped down Jeremy's butt every time he pottied. If he licked his butt because of the loose stools and then drank from the water bowl, he could have infected my other dogs, plus he could have kept reinfecting himself. Oh the joy of giardia. I also had him potty in a different area of the yard than my dogs do (it was more of a dirt/flower bed area) so that he wouldn't infect them.

[greyhead]

Based on our experience, I'd recommend you get a fecal culture & sensitivity performed. Spencer had a long tussle with Clostridium perfringens, which is an anaerobic bacterium, and got very sick, even unto permanent IBD, because it took months to get the vet to do the culture. Here's a link to one of the simplest vet-authored articles on it: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=17&A=2239&S=1 Not saying that it's Clostridium, but when you speak of the stagnant-water smell, I think anaerobic bacteria. My point is that getting stuck on the idea of giardia could just slow you down, as could just repeating standard fecal tests.

 

I could write a dissertation on this subject (sigh). But maybe the most important thing I could say, apart from the above, is that even though many bacteria appear normally in the gut and therefore the stool, it is the number of each kind that is telling. The lab doing the C&S knows what the expected numbers are. When there are "way, way, way, way more" than that (which is what the tech reported to me about Spencer's C. perfringens), then you know it's a problem. Oh, and it took three antibiotics, two weeks each, to get it under control. One of them was Flagyl, but the usual dose for the usual length of time, was totally insufficient. So if you decide this is the kind of testing you want, you may have to get insistent that the vet order the C&S, as I finally had to do, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Wishing you good luck, in any case!

[Time4ANap]

Based on our experience, I'd recommend you get a fecal culture & sensitivity performed. Spencer had a long tussle with Clostridium perfringens, which is an anaerobic bacterium, and got very sick, even unto permanent IBD, because it took months to get the vet to do the culture. Here's a link to one of the simplest vet-authored articles on it: http://www.veterinar...C=17&A=2239&S=1 Not saying that it's Clostridium, but when you speak of the stagnant-water smell, I think anaerobic bacteria. My point is that getting stuck on the idea of giardia could just slow you down, as could just repeating standard fecal tests.

 

I could write a dissertation on this subject (sigh). But maybe the most important thing I could say, apart from the above, is that even though many bacteria appear normally in the gut and therefore the stool, it is the number of each kind that is telling. The lab doing the C&S knows what the expected numbers are. When there are "way, way, way, way more" than that (which is what the tech reported to me about Spencer's C. perfringens), then you know it's a problem. Oh, and it took three antibiotics, two weeks each, to get it under control. One of them was Flagyl, but the usual dose for the usual length of time, was totally insufficient. So if you decide this is the kind of testing you want, you may have to get insistent that the vet order the C&S, as I finally had to do, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Wishing you good luck, in any case!

 

This is exactly why I asked! I figured there would be someone who'd gone down the path to treat Giardia and have it end up being something else. Thank you! That gives me something else to think about and not have it stuck in my head that this is Giardia. Whatever it is, we need to figure it out and get it treated. My boy is not his usual self, and he didn't show up in the kitchen to help me make my sandwich today (he's the cheese tester), so I know he is not feeling good.

 

As much as I hate to bypass our regular vet who is very good, I have the resources of one of the premiere Vet Med schools in the country even closer than the vet's office, so I think we may just make a trip over there and get the right testing the first time. Rocket has donated blood for cancer studies there, so they even have a complete panel on file for him and will be able to detect anything that has changed along those lines as well.

 

As far as the other posts about the cleanliness issues, we've been sanitizing everything, and already have a habit of using wipes on his paws after every outing due to the amount of chemicals people here dump on their lawns. I think the TruGreen truck is stationed permanently in our neighborhood. We are already taking the other precautions that were mentioned, just in case. Thanks.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Time4ANap

[rschultz]

(((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))) Feel better soon Rocket!!

[greyhead]

If at all possible, get the poop sample to go directly from the dog into the container. That way there's no question whether the germ really came from the ground. We used a butter tub that had been through the sterilizing cycle in the dishwasher. Glad to help. We lubs Rocket!

[cleptogrey]

there are other bacteria out there transmitted by wild animals. coxisomethingoranother is transmitted by birds and raccoons. each bacteria has it's own preferred antibiotics. good luck, it's a pain finding out what antibiotic works. it can take a while for treatment and the return of normal stool. my suggestions, talk to your vet and buy a rice cooker! when felix had giardia my rice cooker was working overtime. short grain cheapy white rice with extra water works well- 20#s for under $10.

[FiveRoooooers]

Poor Rocket, I hope he is feeling better and you can get some answers soon. Did your vet mention Tylan at all? We went the Panacur route, and Flagyl, and still had diarrhea. It wasn't until we added Tylan along with the Flagyl that the diarrhea cleared up. We stayed on Tylan for a long time, over a year, and then one day I just stopped giving it and everything was fine. You can purchase it on Amazon.

[greyhead]

There sure are other bacteria out there! Wanting to learn more about the possibilities myself during Spencer's drama, I found this web page which is pretty exhaustive about the possibilities, kinds of anaerobic and aerobic bacteria, and how they are detected. Warning: It's geeky! http://users.rcn.com...#proteobacteria Note that it for some reason opens in the middle of the article. Just scroll up to the top to start from the beginning.

Edited May 19, 2012 by greyhead

[maggiespet]

Sam the mutt pup came to us as an about 9 week old with a raging case of giardia that took a while to correctly diagnose. Once the vet was on to it, Flagyl was prescribed. Most of the symptoms abated but it came back full strength after 8 days or so. Even though the SNAP was negative, I was sure it was still the giardia and urged the vet to prescribe something else. Did that, symptoms abated but it came back. A few days later, re-tried the SNAP and it came back positive. We danced this dance for 5 months. Finally, 3 SNAP tests in row came back negative and we were done with giardia. Poor Sam had a very sickly puppyhood. Giardia is very sneaky. I'm still crazed about the dogs drinking standing water outside. Our vet says that's where most dogs come in contact with it.

 

Hope your pup feels better soon!

[Time4ANap]

Poor Rocket, I hope he is feeling better and you can get some answers soon. Did your vet mention Tylan at all? We went the Panacur route, and Flagyl, and still had diarrhea. It wasn't until we added Tylan along with the Flagyl that the diarrhea cleared up. We stayed on Tylan for a long time, over a year, and then one day I just stopped giving it and everything was fine. You can purchase it on Amazon.

 

DW and I discussed Tylan last night. He doesn't seem to be getting better this weekend, but is no worse either. Will be heading back to the vet on Monday for next steps / tests etc. Thanks.

 

Sam the mutt pup came to us as an about 9 week old with a raging case of giardia that took a while to correctly diagnose. Once the vet was on to it, Flagyl was prescribed. Most of the symptoms abated but it came back full strength after 8 days or so. Even though the SNAP was negative, I was sure it was still the giardia and urged the vet to prescribe something else. Did that, symptoms abated but it came back. A few days later, re-tried the SNAP and it came back positive. We danced this dance for 5 months. Finally, 3 SNAP tests in row came back negative and we were done with giardia. Poor Sam had a very sickly puppyhood. Giardia is very sneaky. I'm still crazed about the dogs drinking standing water outside. Our vet says that's where most dogs come in contact with it.

 

Hope your pup feels better soon!

 

No puddles here, but he ocassionlly will sniff the grass and then start licking something - i'm assuming that's where he picked it up. I usually try to head that off, but every once in a while he sneaks one by me.

 

 

There sure are other bacteria out there! Wanting to learn more about the possibilities myself during Spencer's drama, I found this web page which is pretty exhaustive about the possibilities, kinds of anaerobic and aerobic bacteria, and how they are detected. Warning: It's geeky! http://users.rcn.com...#proteobacteria Note that it for some reason opens in the middle of the article. Just scroll up to the top to start from the beginning.

 

Thanks for the link!

Edited May 19, 2012 by Time4ANap

[Remolacha]

I think Fletcher got his eating feral cat poop the little buggers are insidious! I hope Rocket starts to feel better soon.

[greypuppyluv]

Sam the mutt pup came to us as an about 9 week old with a raging case of giardia that took a while to correctly diagnose. Once the vet was on to it, Flagyl was prescribed. Most of the symptoms abated but it came back full strength after 8 days or so. Even though the SNAP was negative, I was sure it was still the giardia and urged the vet to prescribe something else. Did that, symptoms abated but it came back. A few days later, re-tried the SNAP and it came back positive. We danced this dance for 5 months. Finally, 3 SNAP tests in row came back negative and we were done with giardia. Poor Sam had a very sickly puppyhood. Giardia is very sneaky. I'm still crazed about the dogs drinking standing water outside. Our vet says that's where most dogs come in contact with it.

 

Hope your pup feels better soon!

 

No puddles here, but he ocassionlly will sniff the grass and then start licking something - i'm assuming that's where he picked it up. I usually try to head that off, but every once in a while he sneaks one by me.

 

If you boarded him, he could have picked it up there. The foster I had was in a kennel before he came to me and I think that's probably where he picked up his giardia. You mentioned Rocket had been boarded 2 weeks prior to getting sick, so I'd bet that's where he picked it up.