Is this resource guarding?

[MerseyGrey]

This is an introduction of sorts as well as a question about behaviour. Meet Ami, a 5 year old moohound boy…

 

Ami lived in a home for a year but was returned for biting his owner. It seems that she allowed him on the furniture and her bed, and had a habit of trying to cuddle him and ultimately she ended up being bitten on the bottom. It was implied that he had landed in the wrong home, and the owner was very angry about the defective dog she’d been supplied with. So he’s back at the rescue. The longer he’s been in kennels, the more shut down he has become. They’ve taken him into their secure fields to get him to run with another dog, but he just stands at the gate of the field and trudges back to his kennel.

Enter the suckers Haydons. We’ve really enjoyed having a dog in the house at regular intervals and when we heard about Ami I wondered if we could give him a bit of a break. We brought him home on Thursday and he’s here with us until Sunday afternoon. Our instructions were : he likes his space. We don’t know exactly what his response will be as we never approach him on his bed, but if he’s on the furniture and starts to fall asleep, get him to go on his bed. Give him a wide berth on his bed.

Thursday night: using my stomach as a landing pad, Ami decided to join us in bed. He gradually worked his way down to the end of the bed and we had an uneventful night. Friday - he was as good as gold. He joined me on the sofa and was pawing at me for cuddles and strokes. On Friday evening, he was sat on the sofa with me stroking his bum when Dan announced himself and approached his front. He kind of flew at Dan, bit his sleeved arm (no broken skin) and Dan retreated, pursued by a growling and snarling Ami. Ami then circled back to the sofa, still growling. I moved a little closer to tell him to get down (we’ve since learned that he understands ‘off’ better and will use that to be more specific), and he continued to growl and curl his lips. Then he stopped. He stayed on the sofa while I pottered about and took myself off to the other room, to where he followed for cuddles. The whole incident lasted less than 30 seconds but was quite scary. Last night we got him to stay in his own bed in our room, and this morning we’ve had a few sleepy and undirected growls while he’s been on his own bed, but mostly we’ve had paw of more and whines for strokes. Understandably we are more cautious as we had become complacent too quickly, but we would like to try and work to change this behaviour within the confines of his weekend visits here. 
Am I setting myself an unrealistic goal? Should we just look at managing his behaviour instead, while giving him a little break from kennels? Aside from this, he has been a lovely, affectionate boy, and I don’t want to ruin him more.

[FiveRoooooers]

I'm glad that Dan is ok after that incident. Good on you folks for giving Ami a chance to shine. Others will respond, but I will briefly and strongly encourage No Couch, No Human Beds, Nada. Leave the boy alone whilst he is on his own beds and in whatever spaces the humans have declared to be his. A muzzle is your friend and as much as he may suggest otherwise, Ami is undoubtedly familiar with it and will be just fine wearing it. None of this is about being "alpha" rather, it is about mutual respect, something Ami seems to have either dismissed, misinterpreted or never learned. Quiet praise, affectionate pats and strokes, yes, but I would caution against cuddles and hugs until you become more familiar with Ami and what his triggers may be. He sounds totally workable, and I would enroll him in Dog 101 NILIF (nothing in life is free). There are many threads here on this topic.

Good luck with this cute cow doggie boy! Stay safe and please keep us posted. 

 

Edited February 17 by FiveRoooooers

[MerseyGrey]

Thanks Jan! I think you’re right. It’s back to first principles for this boy and we will work with him as we can. He really is A Very Good Boy and listens to commands well…as long as we can work out what commands he already knows. I’ll look up NILIF, which I had forgotten about from previous posts. Thank you 

[DocsDoctor]

He's a handsome boy - Bel Ami!

Strongly agree with what @FiveRoooooers says. Bed guarding is an issue I have had with Tiger; he too had bounced back to the kennels, when it emerged with his first adopters. The rescue thought it was because he had been living in a very small, rather crowded flat, with people who were well-meaning but didn't know to leave him alone on his bed. Having however been bitten by him myself, I suspect there is more to it than that - genetic inheritance? Bad early experience in the training kennels? He is a clever chap, mostly a very good and loving boy these days, but all the same his is a 'harder', more self-interested temperament than those of my first two soppy fellows Doc and Ken.

Like Ami he would give off mixed signals - appear to be enjoying attention, then suddenly lunge and snap. In the initial stages some of this was surely down to uncertainty - being in a new home, not sure whether he was going to be able to hang on to his lovely new bed. These days he feels much more secure, but I have accepted that it is an issue to manage, rather than cure - I am super-cautious about sleep startle, for instance, knowing that this would be likely to result in a bite, not a snap. And when he managed to nick a packet of 4 pigs' ears from the cupboard under the stairs the other week and take it to his bed, I just let him get on with it. (Fortunately there were no illl-effects beyond gas!) Normally he will get happily off his bed if offered a tempting treat - but I can't imagine what would have been more tempting than 4 pigs' ears!

Please note, he is my dear boy - and if we are out on a walk and he scavenges something, he would happily let me take it from his jaws. But bring the bed into the equation, and the stakes go up. Definitely not a dog for an inexperienced adopter!

[MerseyGrey]

Thanks Clare! I think it’s going to be a learning curve but that’s ok, we’re not ready to give up on him. It sounds like you’ve had a journey with Tiger, but they are worth it. I guess, like you said, that it’s about finding the right home for him with someone who knows greyhounds and can give him the space he needs. In the meantime, we will do what we can to help

[palmettobug]

Thank you for giving this boy another chance--G was a bounce, too, I never got the full story, but his first adopter was a very senior lady and I was told there was a bite involved. He has gotten better about space aggression, related to his bed, but it took YEARS before I felt that he was ready to accept a nose boop and head pat while laying down. I'd say within the last year or so he's become accepting enough to get up on the couch on his own and share with me (or even put his head ON me!).

I think a LOT has to do with getting the right pain management on board. His few bites on me were from having sweet-gum balls (spiky and big) stuck in his feet (I learned too slowly, muzzle on walks) and trying to manipulate his head. G does have arthritis in his hips and tendinitis in his shoulders. We treat it with two types of pain meds (plus his Prozac) and monthly cold laser. He's shown more of that silly, goofy boy that I know he is since he feels so much better.

[greysmom]

Totally workable if you feel up to the task.  He's just been left with no rules or boundaries for a long time, and probably bullied his former owner into a lot a bad behavior for him.  I did have to   at the bite in the butt though!!!  I can't count the number of times I've had a greyhound *play* with me that way.  I dog who wants to give you a serious bite won't choose your butt!!    Remember, resource guarding is an instinct and an anxiety reaction, so improving your bonding and reinforcing his place in the hierarchy of the home will help tremendously.

Seconding everything said by Jan and Clare.  He's going to end up being a good boy for you.  Calm and consistent treatment will help him a lot.  NILIF will help - having him have to "pay" for everything he gets will reinforce that humans are the ones who make the rules (make sure you and DH are both doing the same rewards/behaviors with him).  

Keep him off the furniture and the human bed - lure him with a yummy treat and give him a command if needed to have him go to his own dog bed (placed out of the main traffic patterns).  If he wants pets and attention, have him stand up and come to you.  Keep a small bowl of good treats near his bed (but out of his reach!  ) and whenever you and DH pass by, and he is calm and relaxed, praise and treat.  If he growls, ignore him and no treat. 

Remember, a growl is just a growl.  It's not personal and it's not necessarily an aggressive behavior.  He's just telling you he's upset by something.  And, though it's more active, a bite is just a bite - a way for him to communicate.  A dog can really hurt you if they want, in an extremely short amount of time, so when they don't, you know they were just letting you know how they feel.   Your job is to let him know he's safe and he can trust you.  

There's a TON of threads about space aggression you can read through too.  Good luck with him!!

[MerseyGrey]

Thank you all! ‘Off’ is working well and he is choosing to go to his bed more than the sofa, so hopefully he’s a fast learner. I found a very short and comprehensive guide to NILIF. We’ve both read it and are working to the same goals. We are both ready to have him back in a few weeks’ time and keep working on it.

I did wonder about pain as this was a definite factor in Buddy’s reactiveness - not to us, but to other dogs. Once he was on Librela, his attitude to other dogs relaxed a whole lot. Ami is only 5 and is twitchy about certain parts being touched but he doesn’t seem to be in any pain. He walks just fine, plays and wriggles his bum around for Britain

 

[Remolacha]

I am not an expert by any means, but I do agree with what has been said. Dogs like (love) routine so they know what to expect. NILF respects his boundaries but lets him know the humans are in charge. Once he knows what’s expected, he will relax. 
Good luck and thank you for giving him a chance!

[EllenEveBaz]

No, that pic doesn't look like a dog in pain.    He does look like a lovely boy.  

I am not a training expert.  My background is having adopted 2 dogs who were returned for developing dangerous behaviors with children, and 1 new adoption who turned out to have sleep startle.  I managed all conditions by not allowing any situations to occur.  I kept the first 2 away from young children always, and only gradually allowed petting from older children under restricted circumstances.  Interestingly, one of them started developing other fear behaviors years later, after his super-confident "sister" died and he had to face new people without her being first to check things out, as it were.  We went to a behaviorist, who trained me how to take the confident sister's place and make him feel safe.  I feel that fits into the NILIF philosophy -- the human is in charge.  The sleep startle dog was managed by never allowing him on the human bed, and the couch only with me and only when he was reasonably awake.  He was a total lovebug, but that startle reaction was strong and scary.  

In all cases, the treatment behavior was consistent.  I am wondering how him being with you only on an occasional basis will play into this.  I totally support the NILIF suggestions, but maybe you could be able to add some baseline maximum restrictions that work.  I feel that any work toward relaxing those maximum restrictions should be done by people who will be with him on a permanent basis.  

Edited February 17 by EllenEveBaz

[Time4ANap]

This brings me back to every experience we had with Rocket. We eventually just called it "space issues." 

Our main rules were:

• No petting unless he was standing up.
• If approaching his bed when he was on it, announce yourself.
•  All visitors were told to stay away from his bed and not to reach down toward him when he was lying down. This was the only way we could be sure of no reactivity.

He was the sweetest boy in the world, but had definite space issues. You could tell he was upset immediately if he happened to growl or snap at someone. He bit me once, and also bit a friend who was also his dogsitter. In both bite cases, we both mistakenly reached down when he was sleeping without thinking about what we were doing, and startled him. 

The same boy would lie on the floor and wrap his front legs around my legs while I was sitting in chair, and he would sleep for hours in that position without so much as a peep. We eventually just chalked it up to being a quirk that wasn't going to change, so we heavily enforced the rules above and never had another issue. I could even pick him up if I needed to, but just couldn't touch him while he was lying down. 

Good luck!

[MerseyGrey]

I will talk to the kennel lead when we take him back and let her know what happened and what we’re doing. I don’t really know what goes on behind the scenes and how they interact with the dogs there. I think their policy of ‘let the dog come to you’ is a blanket one for all dogs. They said they hadn’t seen any of the behaviour that had been described by the owner but, like you @EllenEveBaz, they hadn’t let those situations develop. Maybe the home environment is the break in consistency so if we stick to the NILIF training, he will start to expect the same at home as he gets in kennels. I don’t know. We can only try!

[EllenEveBaz]

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They said they hadn’t seen any of the behaviour that had been described by the owner b

I was thinking that at the kennel he is in a crate by himself so he would never feel a need to guard his bed as a resource?  So training as a weekend foster would be occasional rather than consistent.

Edited February 19 by EllenEveBaz

[LBass]

Nate is my first dog with any kind of space/interaction issues.  He's blind, which may be part of his need to protect his space.  He's never bitten, but his snarl and lunge with teeth bared is a real attention getter. As others have said, I'm careful to avoid known issues--I don't pet or approach him when he's on his bed but call him to me instead.  Fortunately, he is very food/treat motivated.  We've settled into a comfortable, affectionate relationship as his humans learn to respect his needs and as he comes to trust and relax more.  It's a slightly more formal relationship than those I've had with less complicated hounds but it is no less rewarding.  Our rules are:

Don't bother him in his bed. 
Call him to you for pets, leashing up, or going out.
Don't try to take things from him--trade up with a nice treat.
I can't do anything about the robot vacuum touching his toes. He tells her off regularly.

For a creature who guards his own space zealously, he has absolutely no respect for anyone else's space.

 

[MerseyGrey]

17 hours ago, EllenEveBaz said:

I was thinking that at the kennel he is in a crate by himself so he would never feel a need to guard his bed as a resource?  So training as a weekend foster would be occasional rather than consistent.

I see what you mean. I think he is in a kennel on his own, but they say that they don’t really go into his kennel, they open the door and make him come to them so I don’t think it’s been an issue. They did tell us yesterday that the behaviour we described - the snap and then following his victim rather than just letting it go - is what his previous owner had experienced, but they weren’t sure whether or not to believe her as she was a bit inconsistent. They said they would talk to a behaviourist to try and work him out. Sounds to me like he’s a grudge-bearer and that maybe he has found a home with kindred spirits!

52 minutes ago, LBass said:

For a creature who guards his own space zealously, he has absolutely no respect for anyone else's space.

 

 Yes! Ami lures you in with a paw of more or whining for attention…then it’s like a shark attack!

[greysmom]

I see what you mean. I think he is in a kennel on his own, but they say that they don’t really go into his kennel, they open the door and make him come to them so I don’t think it’s been an issue. They did tell us yesterday that the behaviour we described - the snap and then following his victim rather than just letting it go - is what his previous owner had experienced, but they weren’t sure whether or not to believe her as she was a bit inconsistent. They said they would talk to a behaviourist to try and work him out. Sounds to me like he’s a grudge-bearer and that maybe he has found a home with kindred spirits!

Sorry.  I didn't understand that you weren't actually fostering him.  He's just with you for a few days at a time and then he goes back to the kennel??   

If he's not getting consistent training it will be really hard to work through this.  The behavior they describe - guarding reaction then following around - is super common.  They *know* that what they're doing is bad behavior - like marking inside, or chewing forbidden objects.  So they follow you and give you appeasement behaviors to try and "apologise" for it.  They can not help the reaction.  It's on the instinct level, not something they have conscious control over without some long-term training.  And if he's NOT staying in your home (or another foster) to have that consistency it's going to be a LOT harder for him.  You'll basically be starting over each time he comes to you.  Managing resource guarding depends a lot on the bonding process and developing a certain level of trust and knowledge in how each party is going to react.

IMO, either foster him and do the work, or leave him in a space where everyone can be managed safely.  The group needs to be upfront with new adopters and don't give him to people who aren't familiar with a) the breed, and b) his issues.  

[MerseyGrey]

The kennels know they will be keeping him there for a while as his needs are quite specific and finding a permanent home will be harder than with most. His previous owner already has a greyhound and the people at the kennels don’t think he had these issues before he went to her. We heard that he was becoming shut down in kennels so we wanted to offer him a break for a weekend and thought we might be able to help with seeing what his reactions are. But maybe we are doing more harm than good. 

[EllenEveBaz]

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But maybe we are doing more harm than good. 

It's a dilemma.  At least you've been able to alert the kennel that the problem isn't limited to the ex-owner.   

Maybe the NILIF will work.  Just brainstorming -- are there other ways you could try to destress him?  Long walks in quiet places without taking him home?  Does he like being brushed?  Keep taking him to your home for visits, but make the human furniture completely off-limits?  (Back in the old days, many people who fostered hounds were advised not to let fosters on the furniture as the permanent adopters might not allow that and would not appreciate having to train a dog out of that behavior.) 

Quote

plays and wriggles his bum around for Britain

   

[MerseyGrey]

I might be able to get to him after work for a walk from the kennels. Since we’ve been dogless, we’ve started to make plans and having a permanent foster, especially one that has the potential to adverse reactions like Ami, doesn’t necessarily fit in with those plans, which is why we have been having them for occasional weekends. We also both work full time and although Dan occasionally works from home it’s not guaranteed. I will speak to the charity owner again. We all want the best for the dogs we are involved with. We are still relatively inexperienced and will be guided heavily by advice from others.

[FiveRoooooers]

You are doing just fine! 

[zimsmom]

NILIF and clicker training worked great for my sassy Zim who bit me twice.  She growled and bared her teeth till the day she passed but we managed to work it out.  Maybe suggest no small children in his next home.  Or is that with you??

Oh and I always had a muzzle any time we traveled vet visits ect.  

[MerseyGrey]

 

5 minutes ago, zimsmom said:

NILIF and clicker training worked great for my sassy Zim who bit me twice.  She growled and bared her teeth till the day she passed but we managed to work it out.  Maybe suggest no small children in his next home.  Or is that with you??

Oh and I always had a muzzle any time we traveled vet visits ect.  

Thank you. Good tips for his management!