Osteo Thread

[mom2four]

I'm sorry, I'm going to keep bugging you guys. Phene is scheduled for a FNA tomorrow, but I received another email from Dr. C this morning and he's pretty confident that it's osteo. Should I put him through the FNA? I received an email from my vet, also, who said that he would support me if I didn't, and this was before it occured to me not to do it.

 

thanks

 

Robin, I don't come here much, but wanted to answer a question you had. Our Jamey had 3 FNA's and all were inconclusive. The OSA was only diagnosed 2 weeks after his front leg had been amputated (after it had broken at the vet's) and the path. report had come back. From end April 2009 through June 4th, 2009 we were never really sure, even Dr. C's team wasn't.

To encourage you, if you are thinking of amputation, on June 4th Jamey will be 2 years post amp.

Thank you! That's fantastic news about Jamey!

 

Phene is 11.5 years old and I suspect he's been ill for a while. It's becoming increasingly difficult to get him to eat and I can see the discomfort with his right rear leg. My vet kept thinking it was arthritis until I insisted on the x-rays. Earlier diagnosis wouldn't have made a difference, as he's been on metacam as needed for a while now. I guess the good thing about this is that my vet is learning a lot about greyhounds and osteo

 

Robin, a suggestion to make Phene more comfortable while eating, if you and Phene can do this. King James, Jamey's racing name, now gets "served like royalty". He just remains laying on the couch while I hold his bowl to feed him. This is a LOT easier on him than trying to balance on his three wobbly legs. He is in the end stages of his cancer, we know that, but try to make things as easy as we can on him. We also bring his water bowl to him when he "commands" it He really only has to get up to potty outside.

 

ETA, I just read about Phene's playing outside. We let Jamey play because we just did not know any better, UNTIL the last FNA showed that his bone was "egg shell thin" as per the Dr. We then started to potty him on leash. This was only for a few days as Dr. C's team had suggested another X-ray for Jamey's leg and it was during the taking of this X-ray that his leg broke and in pain he bit the face of the X-ray tech- superficially! It was amputated a couple of hours later.

It is your call, - do you have a plan in place in case Phene's leg does break and you have to get him to the vet?

Edited May 27, 2011 by mom2four

[robinw]

ugh. plan? my dog sitter (TinasTroops) has permission to do whatever is necessary when I'm away, as I travel a fair bit for work. What other kiind of plan?

[mom2four]

ugh. plan? my dog sitter (TinasTroops) has permission to do whatever is necessary when I'm away, as I travel a fair bit for work. What other kiind of plan?

 

Robin, I mean like how will you get Phene in the vehicle to get him to the vet if needed? It may be a bit much for one person, maybe 2 are needed, and things like that. Will someone call the vet that you're on your way, if that is needed. It might also be a good thing to leave instructions with the vet, we found that useful when we were gone for a week last year. I'm just trying to point out small things that may help thinking through now so that if needed, you'll not have to panic right then. We've been through some of those things, I would not want anyone else to go through something that can be prepared for.

From experience a muzzle is always handy for us to put on Jamey. He gets one on when going outside (leashed) so that I can lift him up the 3 stairs of the deck if needed. I've had a drive-by snap from him- no contact, just because I inadvertently hurt Jamey the first time I tried to lift him up.

 

I hope you understand the things I'm trying to get at, just small things that can become big just when you don't need them to be that!

[greysmom]

I could not have done anything by myself when Dude broke his leg in the yard. I was so lucky that a neighbor walked by right at that time, and another neighbor heard him scream inside his house. Without their help I couldn't have stabilized his leg, couldn't have gotten him from the back yard out two gates to the car, couldn't have gotten him into the car - let alone dealt with my other four dogs. Just some things to think about between you and your dog sitter.

 

I will now always carry my phone with me outside. I've squirreled away some splints and rope in a spot I can get at outside. I always know exactly where my purse and car keys are in case I need to have someone go inside and get them for me.

 

I think it's fine to let him play as long as you have thought about the "what ifs."

[robinw]

damn! thank you! i live alone and didn't even think of this stuff. thank you thank you thank you

[krissn333]

It's good to know what your limitations are and to have a plan to deal with them. I was home alone when Sutra fell (thankfully his leg did not break). I picked him up and laid him down on a bed while I crated the iggies, then I carried him through 2 babygates and 3 doors to get him into the car. But, I had always carried him so I knew that I could. Although, in that moment, if Sutra had weighed 200lbs, I could have carried him. Your body summons the strength you need when it's necessary

 

I know that this is a somewhat morbid topic, but, it's important to know what you will do in all situations.

[robinw]

Have any of you tried acupuncture on your dog with osteo? If so, what were the results?

 

thanks

[KF_in_Georgia]

damn! thank you! i live alone and didn't even think of this stuff. thank you thank you thank you

 

Think it all through now, even though you'll hate doing it. I went on auto-pilot.

 

1-Put Sam's car harness on him.

2-Put him in the car in the back seat.

3-Backed the car out of the carport and turned it so the front passenger door faced my driveway; left the door open.

4-Went in and grabbed my purse.

5-Put Oreo's muzzle on her, picked her up, and carried her to the car.

6-Put her in the front seat, ran back and locked my condo door, and drove to the e-vet.

 

I wasn't quite prepared for Oreo to be screaming in the car. She couldn't lie down (she had broken her front right leg, just above the elbow). Every start and stop at a traffic light rocked her off balance a bit, and she screamed. I bawled. So if you can figure a way to keep Phene steady in the car, that will be a big help. (The diagnosis for Oreo's broken leg was not osteo, but in retrospect I think the cancer just wasn't far enough along to show on the x-rays; otherwise, how'd she break her leg standing in my living room? She died in surgery to implant a pin in the broken leg.) Also, ask your vet if there's something he's already taking you could shove down Phene's throat in an emergency and expect it to work quickly.

 

Know the way to the e-vet. Have their phone number in your phone. (I have e-vet, regular vet, and vet-chiropractor all filed under V so I don't have to remember hospital names.) If your "regular" e-vet is not a 24-hour vet, find one and learn where they're located. I was fortunate that my first visit to an e-vet was earlier, just for minor stitches, when I was a lot less stressed.

 

Make a list of meds Phene is on and put it in your wallet. Beats trying to remember what he's taking and how much.

 

If you want to arrange euthanasia at home, go ahead and research it now. Find someone willing to come to your home, and think about whether you want the other dogs around. There's a recent thread here about euthanasia at home. I know you don't want to read it right now, but you won't have time if there's a crisis. You'll kick yourself later if you haven't made whatever preparations you can now to take care of your boy. Doing all this nasty stuff now is just preparing for a distant event that you hope will be a long time away. Doing it in a few weeks would make it feel worse--like it's looming over you. And get Tina in on the planning, so she'll know what you want done. And have Tina mentally think through what she'd do in an emergency, although if she does a lot of pet-sitting, she probably already has a mental plan for emergencies.

[greysmom]

Well, let's try a happy update again!

 

Dude had his first massage therapy last week and it went AWESOME!! He was so bright and energetic afterwards! Either his tight muscles were really hurting him or having somebody touch him all over for an hour straight just made his week! Even I could tell just by petting him that he was much looser and able to get around better after the massage. We're going to do every other week for now, as he hasn't tightened up appreciably yet.

 

We also started the metronomic protocol on Friday - Artemesinin in the mornings, and altenating Cytoxan (low dose chemo) and Feldene (nsaid) in the afternoons. He is tolerating all his meds very well and actually seems to have a lot of energy. He's certainly been a little brat lately - in other words, back to normal!

 

Hope you all are doing well. Hugs!

[KF_in_Georgia]

Glad to hear your boy's doing well.

[Guest juliagulia630]

Today marks 3 months since James' amputation. He is doing amazing. We are having very full days of swimming, sun bathing, and most of all...cuddling! Sending good thoughts to the rest of the hounds battling this terrible disease!

 

[joejoesmom]

I want to ask everyone for a favor. Many of you know that I am not reading greytalk regularly right now so that I can spend all my free time with my Twistie girl. I worry that people will not hear about our little OSU support group / Ronald McDonald house services. So if you hear of someone going to OSU for treatment, please have them get in touch with me either by PM, by email: finewhipador-drool@yahoo.com, or by phone: 614-523-0754. We have a number of local people in Columbus willing to put up people and their hounds in their spare rooms. If the person prefers to stay in a hotel instead of someone's home, we can still help them with the logistics. I am still checking my email most days (any greytalk PMs are forwarded to my email) but the phone would be the quickest way to contact me. Be sure to leave a message because I screen calls from people I don't know.

 

As to my kids:

 

Twistmas is still with me. She is battling lymphoma and concurrent renal insufficiency. So the fine doctors at OSU are walking the fine line between treating the lymphoma and keeping her kidneys functioning as well as they can, with the overall goal of keeping her quality of life as good as possible. She gets azodyl, enalapril, and subQ fluids for the kidney problems and gets prednisone for the lymphoma and various stomach protectants. If the lymphoma starts to grow too much and she is still feeling well they will give her some of the milder forms of chemo or a small dose of the normal stuff on the CHOP protocol. With her kidneys having issues, we are no longer trying to get another year of quality life, we are just trying to make her current good quality of life last as long as possible. I try to do something special with her each day. We take a walk someplace new (she loves seeing new places) several times a week. The weather hasn't cooperated to allow us to do this everyday. When going out doesn't make sense, we just snuggle and I give ear scritches and butt rubs. She gets to eat whatever she wants to eat, with preference put on low protein foods when she will eat them. This week she has been enjoying home made pancakes and chicken or fish. I have made plans to help her to the bridge when she tells me she is ready. My vet will come to my home and handle everything.

 

Joe continues to do well. He is now a full 10 months post amputation. He is currently roaching on his bed; he never roached before his leg was amputated. He seems totally normal except he very occasionally whines and crys for about 30 to 60 seconds like he is in distress. He does this once every few weeks after or while he has been lying down. Then everything is fine again. I don't know if he is experiencing short episodes of pain (either phantom pain or due to his mild LS) or if something just "freaks him out". His lung x-rays are still clear of osteo mets so the docs are happy. He continues on the palladia metronomic protocol.

 

Shelby (Twister's sister) is doing quite well for an old lady her age (Twister and Shelby are 45 pound whippet / labrador mix littermates who are now 14 3/4 years old). She has had some elevated liver enzymes so is now on Denamarin. She just had blood work today to see if the denamarin is working--I should have results soon. The only other aging that I notice is that she has some slight cataracts and she is no longer able to jump up on stuff quite as well. She still loves life -- food, butt scratches, food, food, food, ear rubs, some more food, a little play while growling, food, and did I mention--she likes food.

 

So that is the update on my crew.

Edited June 2, 2011 by joejoesmom

[Batmom]

Joejoesmom, you are a very kind person to help others when you have so much going on with your pups. Hoping Twistmas continues to enjoy pancakes (yum!) for longer than anyone expects.

[NeylasMom]

Have any of you tried acupuncture on your dog with osteo? If so, what were the results?

 

thanks

I answered in your other thread.

 

Glad to hear Dude, James and Joe are doing so well!

 

Had been wondering about you and Joe Jane. Didn't know about the issues with your other pups. Hope everyone continues to do well for you.

[queenwinniesmom]

I just wanted to say that I think James' picture is one of the most adorable houndie pics I've seen!

 

Sometimes I think of Dude getting an hour massage, and it just makes me smile. As much as he adores people and being close to them---I know, I got a dozen kisses to prove it---he must have been in heaven.

 

What good info about OSU. We are close enough that it might be an option if we ever needed it (hopefully not). I've been thinking about your Twistmas and Joe---they are both in my prayers.

[Charlies_Dad]

 

 

What a beauty James is! Just makes your heart melt.

 

Glad to hear that Dude is doing well on the home protocol. The only thing we have noticed with Charlie on his Palladia days a little bit of the runs.

 

Jane, you do an incredible job of helping people and their hounds and it's greatly appreciated from afar. We may not have been able to take advantage of this kind generosity however we think it has earned you wings. Twistmas is still in our thoughts as I know it's a daily struggle and it's greyt to hear your two other pups are doing well, especially Joejoe!

[robinw]

I sent Phoenix to the bridge yesterday. It was time. He went downhill so fast.

 

I hope all of you get to spend many happy days with your hounds.

[4My2Greys]

Oh Robin, I am shocked in reading this and so sorry that he was taken so quickly. My heart goes out to you in your loss

 

Run free dear Phene.

[Zoolady]

I am so sorry too. Can't help but cry over another precious hound snatched away by that horrible monster. It's always too soon no matter when they go. I'm sure Phoenix had a lot of GT pups to greet him and now run with. Our Wonder would definitely be there because he loved to run too. :gh_runner

[greysmom]

I'm so sorry Robin. Sorry he had to leave so soon, and sorry you didn't have more time to come to grips with this horrible monster.

 

I hate cancer.

 

[Charlies_Dad]

Robin, I was stunned when I saw his name in Remembrance. I couldn't believe he was gone already. I am truly sorry.

[NeylasMom]

Robin, I was stunned when I saw his name in Remembrance. I couldn't believe he was gone already. I am truly sorry.

[robinw]

I strongly suspect that Phene was ill long before he was diagnosed. He'd been having rear end pain for a while. The vet I had been seeing kept saying it was arthritis and that nothing about it seemed like osteo. I finally saw another vet in the practice and requested x-rays, then follow up with Dr. Couto. I'm not upset or anything because the outcome would have been the same, regardless of when he was diagnosed. I just regret not being able to spend his last few days with him, but at least I was there at the end.

 

P.S. Thank you all for your support. I only hope I can give as much as I've received from all of you.

Edited June 6, 2011 by robinw

[NeylasMom]

I strongly suspect that Phene was ill long before he was diagnosed. He'd been having rear end pain for a while. The vet I had been seeing kept saying it was arthritis and that nothing about it seemed like osteo. I finally saw another vet in the practice and requested x-rays, then follow up with Dr. Couto. I'm not upset or anything because the outcome would have been the same, regardless of when he was diagnosed. I just regret not being able to spend his last few days with him, but at least I was there at the end.

 

P.S. Thank you all for your support. I only hope I can give as much as I've received from all of you.

Robin, the more I follow people's stories and after what I experienced with Neyla, I think most dogs have the cancer at least 6 months to a year before people realize and that they tend to only find out when the cancer is in its final stages and exponentially growing. Sometimes the dog will have limped a little bit months earlier but it resolved on its own or with a bit of medication, other times there were no signs at all. Phene's case with the rear end weakness actually sounds very much like Kari's story with Wonder. With Neyla, my vet totally dismissed my concerns about osteo and even missed an irregular spot on her x-ray. It was only when I took her to our orthopedist who got high def x-rays that it was clear there was something more suspicious there. Even then, he just wnated to re-xray in 2 weeks. On the advice of the board here, I sent them to Dr. Couto instead of waiting and that's when I got the diagnosis.

 

So I have no doubt you're right about Phene, but you're also right that there's nothing you could have done to change the outcome. That's the hard thing about this disease, it's so difficult to detect and it's so aggressive that it generally leaves so little time. It seems incredibly unfair.

[queenwinniesmom]

I strongly suspect that Phene was ill long before he was diagnosed. He'd been having rear end pain for a while. The vet I had been seeing kept saying it was arthritis and that nothing about it seemed like osteo. I finally saw another vet in the practice and requested x-rays, then follow up with Dr. Couto. I'm not upset or anything because the outcome would have been the same, regardless of when he was diagnosed. I just regret not being able to spend his last few days with him, but at least I was there at the end.

 

P.S. Thank you all for your support. I only hope I can give as much as I've received from all of you.

Robin, the more I follow people's stories and after what I experienced with Neyla, I think most dogs have the cancer at least 6 months to a year before people realize and that they tend to only find out when the cancer is in its final stages and exponentially growing. Sometimes the dog will have limped a little bit months earlier but it resolved on its own or with a bit of medication, other times there were no signs at all. Phene's case with the rear end weakness actually sounds very much like Kari's story with Wonder. With Neyla, my vet totally dismissed my concerns about osteo and even missed an irregular spot on her x-ray. It was only when I took her to our orthopedist who got high def x-rays that it was clear there was something more suspicious there. Even then, he just wnated to re-xray in 2 weeks. On the advice of the board here, I sent them to Dr. Couto instead of waiting and that's when I got the diagnosis.

 

So I have no doubt you're right about Phene, but you're also right that there's nothing you could have done to change the outcome. That's the hard thing about this disease, it's so difficult to detect and it's so aggressive that it generally leaves so little time. It seems incredibly unfair.

 

 

I agree with all of this. With Lacey, our first Greyhound, we treated her for arthritis for months. She was about 13---we're not sure because she was an AKC Greyhound that was an abuse case rescue. There was no tumor showing. When I asked for X-rays, they showed the tumor in her pelvic bone. We could not treat that, and since it became obvious that she'd been sick for a while, we had to let her go.

 

It IS so unfair. But you're right, the outcome would be the same. I think sometimes they are so stoic, and their utmost desire is just to be with us, that there is no real way we can know, unless it is a gut feeling. Then it comes down to a trade-off between how much pain they are in and how effectively we can control it, and when they are ready to say good-bye. We just do the best we can, what we know in our hearts is right and necessary for the dogs we understand best and love unconditionally.

 

Robin, you knew that you needed to be there for Phene, and you were. Thank goodness you were able to get home in time, and his last memory was of you holding him and knowing how very much he was loved.

 

This is true---everyone here knows that you understand what it's like to lose a precious dog. You have always been there with support, because you care. That's what is so rewarding about Greytalk. We are here for each other.