Osteo Thread

[robinw]

Robinw,if you don't mind me asking,did you also just use pain management with Phoenix?

I did, but Phene was only with me for 1.5 weeks post diagnosis. My vet kept insisting that it was arthritis because osteo can present itself differently in greyhounds than in other dogs. It wasn't until I insisted on x-rays and sending them to OSU for a second opinion (my vet didn't that it was osteo) that I knew how the diagnosis. I wouldn't have opted for amputation because of his age. Now that he's gone, I realize that he must've been very ill before he was diagnosed and that amputation wouldn't have extended his life or quality of life very long at all. I'm really glad that I didn't do it. I don't have any regrets about the way I handled his illness, except that I had to go out of town for work and wasn't with him during his last few days, although I was there when he was sent to the bridge. His condition deteriorated so quickly; he seemed great and comfortable when I left town Thursday and was more than ready for the bridge by the time I returned Saturday morning. We took him straight to the vet because even if he had a few comfortable days, he wasn't going to get any better and I didn't want to extend his pain. Early diagnosis or late diagnosis, or even if it was arthritis, management wouldn't have changed.

 

Good luck and don't forget that we're here for you.

 

ETA that there is a GTer whose hound is being treated with Chinese herbs. He was diagnosed at the same time as Phene and is still alive and well. If anybody's interested, I can ask her to post the protocol.

Edited July 8, 2011 by robinw

[Guest KathyK]

Have not posted here in a long time. I am so sorry to hear about Isaac and Berkley, We lost our big boy Ward in February. Like your 2 hounds, he had osteo but it was in his hip. He was not the kind of dog that could handle an amp. He was diagnosed in November and we let him go in Feb. We controlled his pain pretty well but were fearful of a hip fracture. I am a nurse and I asked the Vet to give me a pain injection to have on hand for Ward. We never had to use it but it was comforting knowing I could ease his pain in a hurry. We were very careful with Ward's activities, didn't let him jump up or down and tried to keep him from becoming overexcited. He was a "twirler" when he would lay on his bed, sometimes as much as 8 times one way and then as many the other way. When it got to the point where he was afraid to lay down we let him go. There are many knowledgeable folks on this thread. Don't hesitate to ask for advice. Again, I am so sorry to hear about your pups.

 

Kathy

[Guest Puddyrun]

Jumping in to the fray. Berkeley is 8 years old, with a lesion on the distal radius front left leg.

 

I don't even know where to start, honestly. The onco vet at Angell Memorial felt strongly that Berkeley would be OK as a tripod, but he's always had a "lame" back left leg. He limped horribly when we adopted him at 2 and we spent a ton of money trying to figure out why - and never got an answer. It's gotten better over the years, but never 100%. When he goes down stairs, he hops on one leg in the back - so three legs it already. So I don't know. I think a front leg amp would be tough on him.

 

He's currently showing no pain. Even after two hours at the vet today, he was still putting full weight on it. I have him on 50 mg deramaxx and 50 mg tramadol once a day. He's either stoic, or the current dosage is doing its job.

 

Yesterday he wanted to run around like a maniac so I'm worried if I don't amp that he's going to break his leg.

 

Here's my bub at Dewey a few years back:

 

I'm so sorry that you had to join the club too! Your boy is beautiful.

Robinw,if you don't mind me asking,did you also just use pain management with Phoenix?

I did, but Phene was only with me for 1.5 weeks post diagnosis. My vet kept insisting that it was arthritis because osteo can present itself differently in greyhounds than in other dogs. It wasn't until I insisted on x-rays and sending them to OSU for a second opinion (my vet didn't that it was osteo) that I knew how the diagnosis. I wouldn't have opted for amputation because of his age. Now that he's gone, I realize that he must've been very ill before he was diagnosed and that amputation wouldn't have extended his life or quality of life very long at all. I'm really glad that I didn't do it. I don't have any regrets about the way I handled his illness, except that I had to go out of town for work and wasn't with him during his last few days, although I was there when he was sent to the bridge. His condition deteriorated so quickly; he seemed great and comfortable when I left town Thursday and was more than ready for the bridge by the time I returned Saturday morning. We took him straight to the vet because even if he had a few comfortable days, he wasn't going to get any better and I didn't want to extend his pain. Early diagnosis or late diagnosis, or even if it was arthritis, management wouldn't have changed.

 

Good luck and don't forget that we're here for you.

 

ETA that there is a GTer whose hound is being treated with Chinese herbs. He was diagnosed at the same time as Phene and is still alive and well. If anybody's interested, I can ask her to post the protocol.

I feel good about the decision to do only pain management but it was wonderful to read your opinions. They helped reinforce my decision at a time when my brain is fried and unsure about anything. My mind is so muddled right now,plus I'm with my boy nearly 24/7 so I have to hold it together for him. I keep telling myself that dogs don't worry about the future,and that seems to help me deal with this news. Hearing the news was totally devastating but ,even though his time is limited,I would love to hear of the chinese herb protocol. I'm not willing to change his lifestyle as he is very happy with his routines and dearly loves his food,but I could definitely use any help as we're not able to kill the monster,just maybe keep it from completely taking over for a while.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Puddyrun

[BauersMom]

I apologize if this has been covered - I haven't made it through the entire thread yet. Or maybe if someone can point me to prior posts with the answer...

 

For those that opted to not amp, what meds (outside of those exclusively for pain) did you use/try and what success did you have? Pamidronate, palliative chemo, etc? Have folks seen decent results or any problems with them?

[Guest Puddyrun]

I apologize if this has been covered - I haven't made it through the entire thread yet. Or maybe if someone can point me to prior posts with the answer...

 

For those that opted to not amp, what meds (outside of those exclusively for pain) did you use/try and what success did you have? Pamidronate, palliative chemo, etc? Have folks seen decent results or any problems with them?

That is exactly what I'm wondering about. I know that my Isaac doesn't have any chance of reversing the monster given his age and the location,but I would love to hear of any alternative options to possibly prolong our time with him. Berkeley and Isaac may be different ages,but they are both going through a tough journey. We can both pull each other through with the help of the others here who have been through it before

[greysmom]

You both may want to contact OSU and see what they have to say. I'm not sure what they recommend for palliative care only cases.

 

Ask about low dose chemo, piroxicam, and artemisinin for your situation. This is what they call their Metronomic Protocol for post amp, post regular chemo greys. It may be of some use. Targeted radiation therapy has also been mentioned for tumors.

 

I also know at least one dog (sorry, I've forgotten who) tried an IV infusion of a human drug to increase bone density (like Boniva or one of the others). Might have been pamidronate??

 

You may also want to look at Charlies_Dad's blog as he is using a lot of holistic approaches. You can also investigate this avenue with a holistic vet in your area.

 

Having adequate pain meds on hand at all times seems to be the key. That way you can help your dog get through a flair up, without stressing them further with a vet visit. Tramadol and Gabapentin look like they are working well together for most.

[Guest Puddyrun]

You both may want to contact OSU and see what they have to say. I'm not sure what they recommend for palliative care only cases.

 

Ask about low dose chemo, piroxicam, and artemisinin for your situation. This is what they call their Metronomic Protocol for post amp, post regular chemo greys. It may be of some use. Targeted radiation therapy has also been mentioned for tumors.

 

I also know at least one dog (sorry, I've forgotten who) tried an IV infusion of a human drug to increase bone density (like Boniva or one of the others). Might have been pamidronate??

 

You may also want to look at Charlies_Dad's blog as he is using a lot of holistic approaches. You can also investigate this avenue with a holistic vet in your area.

 

Having adequate pain meds on hand at all times seems to be the key. That way you can help your dog get through a flair up, without stressing them further with a vet visit. Tramadol and Gabapentin look like they are working well together for most.

THANK YOU!!!!

[krissn333]

We did pamidronate infusions with Sutra (it encourages bone growth). They were great for him! He was so lively and had so much energy...it was worth it for us. Experiences with it vary though. It does require the pup to stay at the vet's office for about half a day, so it's not for everyone. Sutra's infusions were done with a liter of fluid, to try to minimize the effect on the kidneys which can be common.

 

He made it to 3 days shy of six months post-diagnosis, with 99% of his days being good.

[robinw]

Phene was on Tramadol and Metacam. He wasn't around long enough to try other meds.

[Guest Puddyrun]

Isaac just got accepted into Circle of Grey. I am so happy that he got accepted. as I know that he is terminal and they will answer many questions. I plan to keep posting and checking in here.

[robinw]

Isaac just got accepted into Circle of Grey. I am so happy that he got accepted. as I know that he is terminal and they will answer many questions. I plan to keep posting and checking in here.

I found Circle of Grey very helpful for the short amount of time I was on. I still offer support when I can. They have a wealth of knowledge and a great library.

[greysmom]

Isaac just got accepted into Circle of Grey. I am so happy that he got accepted. as I know that he is terminal and they will answer many questions. I plan to keep posting and checking in here.

 

 

Make sure you check out the "Links" page. I found a ton of information there.

 

And, just some advice for you, at some point, shut down the computer and just go hug your dog! I was really overwhelmed in the beginning, trying to learn everything in a crash course, trying not to miss a single piece of information so I could help Dude through this. We had a broken leg/amp/chemo, so there was some urgency in the beginning, but you also need to remember that in the end, you will do what you can, and the outcome will be what it will be. And you shouldn't let the quest make you miss time with your baby!

[RedFawnMom]

Hi everyone. I'm just popping in to check up on all the pups and give a Lucy update. She's still doing great and had her sixth and final chemo last week!!! Aside from the WBC dips everything has been good and she's happy and healthy 5 months post amp. Wow, 5 months! I hadn't counted in a while. She's still my goofy girl and the biggest love bug you'll ever meet. She really is loving life, and that makes me so happy to be able to say. She is sleep woofling at this very moment. :-) My sister in law visited last weekend and brought her 15 lb terrier/mutt and Lucy was THRILLED! Lucy likes everyone, but the two of them are a perfect match and adore each other. They ran through the house for hours before sharing a bed for a nap. I swear Lucy fell asleep with a smile on her face that night. :-)

 

Anyway, I feel really bad for disappearing from here after getting so much support, but I had to do it for a while. I was crying over every new diagnosis or complication and all I could think about was how we have limited time. When I started counting the months backward, as time remaining rather than as time survived, I knew I needed to take a break and stop thinking about Lucy's osteo and just think of her as Lucy. But I have been thinking of all the pups and hoping they're well, and hoping that the moms and dads who lost pups are hurting a little less each day.

 

I only read back a couple of pages but am so happy to see Dude doing well and still enjoying his massages! How is everyone else doing? Hugs to all!

[Charlies_Dad]

Jess,

 

I am so glad Lucy is doing well!!! It is great to hear from you and yes, I know the feelings you have about visiting this thread. There are unfortunately far too many pups afflicted with this disease and each of their passings is very painful to read about. You made the right decision and as Chris (Dude's mom) stated, you often need to just go hug your pup and spend time with them enjoying their antics. What will be, will be, we cannot change the future. We may be able to influence it some by doing all we can for our pups however we all know in the back of our minds this is a terminal disease. Again so happy to hear Lucy is doing well and I hope she continues to and blows right by the 1 year mark.

 

Kyle

[robinw]

Great news about Lucy, Jess! I'm so glad she's doing well. Do you have any pictures?

[Guest Puddyrun]

Isaac just got accepted into Circle of Grey. I am so happy that he got accepted. as I know that he is terminal and they will answer many questions. I plan to keep posting and checking in here.

 

 

Make sure you check out the "Links" page. I found a ton of information there.

 

And, just some advice for you, at some point, shut down the computer and just go hug your dog! I was really overwhelmed in the beginning, trying to learn everything in a crash course, trying not to miss a single piece of information so I could help Dude through this. We had a broken leg/amp/chemo, so there was some urgency in the beginning, but you also need to remember that in the end, you will do what you can, and the outcome will be what it will be. And you shouldn't let the quest make you miss time with your baby!

Yes, You are so right.

[Guest snakes]

Just a quick rundown of what we do here for FedX for the 'new members', He is 6 and was diagnosed back in january with front right leg radius osteo. I have opted to only due palliative care.

 

We changed his diet to increase the veggies and protien content with a sprinkle of ground flax seed.

 

Supplement with fish oil, cod liver oil, curcumin (for a mast cell tumor on his thigh), calcium, artemisinin, and a multivitamin.

 

We are also using chinese herbs, i am not sure if they are actually helping or not, but the current blend isn't hurting so we keep using them.

 

Pain meds are gabapentin (the wonder drug here, it has helped GREATLY), novox (generic rimadyl), and tramadol. I do adjust these depending on his pain, the tramadol is only once in a while or more active days or rainy days (pain gets worse with bad weather).

 

We tried one dose of palliative radiation but it seemed to make his pain worse.

 

We are now doing pamidronate which is helping him immensely! We did 3 doses 3wks apart but do to finances and travel time (2hr drive in rush hour) we are now every 6wks (it is $350-400 per dose). It does require a 3hr stay for the infusion.

 

If you would like specifics on any of it or my experiences feel free to PM me.

[BauersMom]

Everyone's input is really helpful. Thank you all for your thoughts and wisdom!

 

I'm leaning towards palliative care and not the amp and it's making me feel guilty for not trying to do "everything" possible. But... I worry about his stability on three legs with one not 100% leg. So I just have to come to terms that "everything" in this case may not be the best for Berkeley, you know?

Edited July 9, 2011 by BauersMom

[joejoesmom]

Everyone's input is really helpful. Thank you all for your thoughts and wisdom!

 

I'm leaning towards palliative care and not the amp and it's making me feel guilty for not trying to do "everything" possible. But... I worry about his stability on three legs with one not 100% leg. So I just have to come to terms that "everything" in this case may not be the best for Berkeley, you know?

 

As someone who opted for amputation, it sounds to me that you have Berkeley's best interests forefront in your mind. Amputation isn't always the best treatment. While it is the most likely way to prolong life with osteo, it certainly isn't a guarantee. Also if the life you are prolonging is a life where your pup can't get around without difficulty, you have to weigh what he and you would want. You know your houndie best. Decisions made out of love and respect for yourself, your family and your furkid are not wrong.

 

Jane

[greysmom]

Hi everyone. I'm just popping in to check up on all the pups and give a Lucy update. She's still doing great and had her sixth and final chemo last week!!! Aside from the WBC dips everything has been good and she's happy and healthy 5 months post amp. Wow, 5 months! I hadn't counted in a while. She's still my goofy girl and the biggest love bug you'll ever meet. She really is loving life, and that makes me so happy to be able to say. She is sleep woofling at this very moment. :-) My sister in law visited last weekend and brought her 15 lb terrier/mutt and Lucy was THRILLED! Lucy likes everyone, but the two of them are a perfect match and adore each other. They ran through the house for hours before sharing a bed for a nap. I swear Lucy fell asleep with a smile on her face that night. :-)

 

Anyway, I feel really bad for disappearing from here after getting so much support, but I had to do it for a while. I was crying over every new diagnosis or complication and all I could think about was how we have limited time. When I started counting the months backward, as time remaining rather than as time survived, I knew I needed to take a break and stop thinking about Lucy's osteo and just think of her as Lucy. But I have been thinking of all the pups and hoping they're well, and hoping that the moms and dads who lost pups are hurting a little less each day.

 

I only read back a couple of pages but am so happy to see Dude doing well and still enjoying his massages! How is everyone else doing? Hugs to all!

 

 

Jess, thank you so much for updating us about Lucy! I've been wondering about her lately - and Callie too. I think they and FedX are the only three left that were diagnosed around the first of the year. Dude is coming on up 6 months post-amp on the 17th and he is doing really super great! He is still enjoying his every-other-week massages, and all the add-ins to his dinner he's getting now. We know he's feeling fine and dandy as he's been a right BRAT lately!

 

I really can't say enough good things about how much the massage sessions have helped Dude. It helps keep his muscles relaxed and lined up for good functioning as he walks with three legs. We also see a big bump up in his activity level and emotional state after a session. The good effects last most of the two weeks in between.

 

I have a hard time coming here too, sometimes. Mostly because I feel guilty about all the heartache when we are enjoying really good times with Dude. He'll have a chest xray on 7/19, so we'll see what happens then.

 

Hugs to all!

[robinw]

I have a hard time coming here too, sometimes. Mostly because I feel guilty about all the heartache when we are enjoying really good times with Dude.

I am thrilled that Dude is doing so well, and just as thrilled about all our hounds that are doing well! I'm sure everybody would agree

[KF_in_Georgia]

I have a hard time coming here too, sometimes. Mostly because I feel guilty about all the heartache when we are enjoying really good times with Dude. He'll have a chest xray on 7/19, so we'll see what happens then.

 

Hugs to all!

 

Some of us (lots of us) come here longing to see good news about you guys and your babies.

[RedFawnMom]

Jess,

 

I am so glad Lucy is doing well!!! It is great to hear from you and yes, I know the feelings you have about visiting this thread. There are unfortunately far too many pups afflicted with this disease and each of their passings is very painful to read about. You made the right decision and as Chris (Dude's mom) stated, you often need to just go hug your pup and spend time with them enjoying their antics. What will be, will be, we cannot change the future. We may be able to influence it some by doing all we can for our pups however we all know in the back of our minds this is a terminal disease. Again so happy to hear Lucy is doing well and I hope she continues to and blows right by the 1 year mark.

 

Kyle

Thank you Kyle! How is Charlie?? I've been thinking about him - how many months is he celebrating now?

 

 

Everyone's input is really helpful. Thank you all for your thoughts and wisdom!

 

I'm leaning towards palliative care and not the amp and it's making me feel guilty for not trying to do "everything" possible. But... I worry about his stability on three legs with one not 100% leg. So I just have to come to terms that "everything" in this case may not be the best for Berkeley, you know?

You should absolutely not feel guilty for making a decision that is in his best interest. Not for a second. Amp is not a good choice for everyone, so don't feel like you're the only person who has ever decided against it. I think that if I were in your shoes, I would lean the same way. It would be a very difficult thing for everyone to go through if after the surgery and recovery (and chemo, too, I assume) he wasn't comfortably mobile as a tripod. I mean, the goal of going the amp route is that your pup has more time to enjoy life...not just more time for the sake of more time. And that's a gamble for everyone who chooses amp - even with a dog who seems like a perfect candidate, you never really know if they'll adjust and be happy and comfortable until it's done. If you have doubts about that, I think it's important to pay attention to them. And I think I remember reading that he doesn't like going to the vet - is that right? If so, that would be something else to keep in mind. Chemo requires many visits to the vet (we have been to Angell 14 times so far, though that's probably not the norm) and I don't think I could have gone through that with a dog who didn't like the vet. The last couple of times we went, Lucy started to not want to go in, and let me tell you, it took all my strength not to break down and sob while I had to basically drag her into the building. Ugh. (I actually think she was afraid of the floors there after slipping once when my husband took her, and not really afraid of the vet, but I didn't realize that at first and felt like the worst dog mom ever.)

 

Anyway, you'll make your decisions out of love for him and that means that whatever you decide will be the right choice. That's all any of us can do.

 

 

Some of us (lots of us) come here longing to see good news about you guys and your babies.

Thank you for that.

[RedFawnMom]

Jess, thank you so much for updating us about Lucy! I've been wondering about her lately - and Callie too. I think they and FedX are the only three left that were diagnosed around the first of the year. Dude is coming on up 6 months post-amp on the 17th and he is doing really super great! He is still enjoying his every-other-week massages, and all the add-ins to his dinner he's getting now. We know he's feeling fine and dandy as he's been a right BRAT lately!

Six months! Woo hoo, go Dude! The story about him showing off his toys and his bed when the massage therapist comes cracked me up, I can perfectly visualize it! I think that he and Lucy would make a good pair....Six legs and two giant personalities between the two of them.

 

I'm happy to see that FedX is still winning the fight - it's been six months already? Amazing. Gabapentin was a HUGE help for Lucy in the first few weeks after surgery. I'm glad it's helping him, too.

 

How is Callie? Has there been an update recently?

 

 

Great news about Lucy, Jess! I'm so glad she's doing well. Do you have any pictures?

 

What's that? Pictures, you say? Oh, ok, if I MUST share...

 

Last chemo day! I always bring a blanket and we camp out on the floor together while waiting for the CBC to come back. The vet techs used to get startled when they came back into the room, thinking I'd left because they couldn't see me behind the counter. Now they are used to it and just assume I am on the floor.

 

Heading home to celebrate!

 

Um, this is a long ride. You drive, I'll nap.

 

This is often my view from the couch. Note the smushy lip against the couch cushion.

[Charlies_Dad]

 

Thank you Kyle! How is Charlie?? I've been thinking about him - how many months is he celebrating now?

 

 

Jess,

 

We are approaching Charlie's 1 year anniversary, July 15th dx/July 16th amp. I love the pics of Lucy, she is a beautiful girl!!!

 

 

Dude! Six months buddy, keep it up and enjoy those massages!!! Charlie is jealous!