Suspected Cancer - How Long To Wait.

[KickReturn]

This is not the post I was hoping to make. 4 months ago I adopted a beautiful blue brindle boy named Honor. He has just turned 7, and in the past couple of days what was an occasional odd step has become a full limp. Front left is the problem. It has also been accompanied by occasional diarrhea. The symptoms are identical to what my previous grey Hester experienced due to osteosarcoma. I am giving gabapentin to manage pain. Honor is getting around OK. Can still do stairs, still keen for walks, although I shorten them a bit, appetite good, etc.

 

My plan is to go for an X-ray and if it's cancer he will be euthanized then and there. Fingers crossed it is something else but I know it's not the result of some injury I did not see occur. I have also examined and tested every joint from the toes up and can't get a pain response, so it's not foot, wrist, elbow etc. I have also dug my fingers hard into every tendon, ligament, muscle and all is sound. All I get is some resistance to foreleg extension. I have seen this movie before.

 

My question: would it be OK to push him to next Monday - six days, assuming there is no significant deterioration? There is a big greyhound walk with our group on Sunday and he has never had the experience. I think it would be a nice way to end things if it comes to that. My fear about delaying things is a leg fracture.

 

Saddest thing is he seems to know. He won't leave my side. Is refusing to go to any of his 10 beds located throughout our house. Instead he insists on sleeping on the floor under whatever chair I happen to be sitting in.

 

Only 4 months? I don't even have any decent photos of him yet. Boy would I love to be wrong about all of this.

Edited March 7, 2017 by KickReturn

[Jenbo]

I hope you're wrong, too.

[NeylasMom]

I hope you're wrong as well. But why not get the x-ray now rather than waiting and not insist on a suspicious x-ray being a death sentence? If he has cancer, he has cancer. You *knowing* about the cancer does nothing to mitigate the risk of his leg breaking between now and Monday. On the contrary, it might make you more inclined to provide better pain management or restrict exercise in some additional way. And while you cannot predict whether a leg will break based on x-rays - it can certainly give you information that may be useful. If it looks like osteo but the damage to the bone is minimal, you may have many months where you can avoid him being painful with medications. Or if you see the bone is almost completely eaten away, you may decide not to wait until Monday, as difficult as that might be. I always think more information is better than less. Good luck.

[robinw]

I sure hope it isn't cancer. You don't know what's wrong with him, or what kind of cancer it is, if it is cancer. I suggest holding off those thoughts until you have a diagnosis.

 

If it is osteo, Jen is right. The longer you wait, the greater the chance of a broken limb. Also, if it's osteo, he'd be in pain, even if he's not showing it. You wouldn't be doing him any favours taking him to the walk.

Edited March 7, 2017 by robinw

[3greytjoys]

If he's avoiding all his beds, he is clearly uncomfortable. I would take him in for X-rays ASAP. I do not walk hounds who are limping in pain, as that usually exacerbates their problems. IME, limps require rest. Considering his excessive exercise for a recently adopted 7 year old senior, It could be over usage or many other treatable possibilities. Please try not to assume osteo. until you have proof. If it happens to be osteo., he would need more complete pain medications ASAP.

 

Honor is in our positive healing thoughts.

Edited March 7, 2017 by 3greytjoys

[Houndtime]

When we first adopted our Paulie, he started limping after 5 months. Took him to the vet and it was a soft tissue injury. Rest, deramaxx, and limited walking for two weeks. Fine! We adopted American Idol. Had her about a year. Same story.

 

I believe in positive thoughts, but, you need to have them as well. Good luck. I will keep your Honor in good thoughts and prayers.

[carronstar]

If he's avoiding all his beds, he is clearly uncomfortable. I would take him in for X-rays ASAP. I do not walk hounds who are limping in pain, as that usually exacerbates their problems. IME, limps require rest. Considering his excessive exercise for a recently adopted 7 year old senior, It could be over usage or many other treatable possibilities. Please try not to assume osteo. until you have proof. If it happens to be osteo., he would need more complete pain medications ASAP.

 

Honor is in our positive healing thoughts.

This. Perfectly said.

[KickReturn]

I hope you're wrong as well. But why not get the x-ray now rather than waiting and not insist on a suspicious x-ray being a death sentence? If he has cancer, he has cancer. You *knowing* about the cancer does nothing to mitigate the risk of his leg breaking between now and Monday. On the contrary, it might make you more inclined to provide better pain management or restrict exercise in some additional way. And while you cannot predict whether a leg will break based on x-rays - it can certainly give you information that may be useful. If it looks like osteo but the damage to the bone is minimal, you may have many months where you can avoid him being painful with medications. Or if you see the bone is almost completely eaten away, you may decide not to wait until Monday, as difficult as that might be. I always think more information is better than less. Good luck.

 

My dilemma is that if the X-ray shows the limp is due to osteo, I won't bring him home regardless of how advanced the cancer is. He is limping due to pain and that is not going to get better. I guess I am stalling to enjoy him for just a while longer. Yes, an X-ray ASAP is the right thing to do. I just was trying to get a sense of how real the risk of fracture is. Maybe someone has seen this pattern and has some insight. I guess it is a bit of an impossible question to answer.

 

 

If he's avoiding all his beds, he is clearly uncomfortable. I would take him in for X-rays ASAP. I do not walk hounds who are limping in pain, as that usually exacerbates their problems. IME, limps require rest. Considering his excessive exercise for a recently adopted 7 year old senior, It could be over usage or many other treatable possibilities. Please try not to assume osteo. until you have proof. If it happens to be osteo., he would need more complete pain medications ASAP.

 

Honor is in our positive healing thoughts.

 

Oh, no problem with the beds, as long as they are right beside me.

And while Honor was getting more exercise than most Greys, we had built up his endurance carefully and of late had been doing less because of terrible weather.

Edited March 7, 2017 by KickReturn

[ramonaghan]

You have been through this so recently and your worry is totally understandable, but there are so many non-cancer things it could be. Sweep, also 7, has an ongoing front left leg limp that stumped many vets and specialists for almost a year. They finally isolated the pain to one toe, most likely the result of an old racing injury. She gets an NSAID when she needs it; sometimes that's daily and sometimes she goes many weeks without. Nothing has ever showed on x-rays, and she had zero mobility issues for the first 3 years we had her. It just seemed to "flare up" with age. It could very well be something similar at work here. Please try not to assume the worst, but I agree with others about getting the x-rays sooner than later.

You and Honor will be in my thoughts.

[NeylasMom]

 

My dilemma is that if the X-ray shows the limp is due to osteo, I won't bring him home regardless of how advanced the cancer is. He is limping due to pain and that is not going to get better. I guess I am stalling to enjoy him for just a while longer. Yes, an X-ray ASAP is the right thing to do. I just was trying to get a sense of how real the risk of fracture is. Maybe someone has seen this pattern and has some insight. I guess it is a bit of an impossible question to answer.

 

That's faulty logic, no offense. If you know you'd put him to sleep if the x-ray showed cancer and you're just avoiding the x-ray so you can keep him alive without feeling guilty, it just doesn't make sense.

 

Really, with bone cancer you cannot predict whether or when a fracture will occur. A radiologist once told me that he had seen dogs break bones with almost no evidence of cancer (and I've seen it a number of times on this site where the fracture is the first clue anything was wrong) and he's seen dogs who he couldn't believe were walking that seemed fine. But generally speaking, if there isn't a lot of damage to the bone yet, there's a much less significant risk of a fracture than if the bone is eaten away. I understand not keeping a dog in pain when he has a fatal disease, but I don't think the issue needs to be so black and white. You may very well be able to manage his pain just fine with meds. Many years ago, Neyla was diagnosed in May with osteo via x-rays. Her pain was managed completely with minimal meds for months and we did x-rays periodically to monitor for bone changes so I could put her to sleep if the bone was getting eaten away and fracture risk was increasing. I didn't let her run off leash outside and I made steps so she wouldn't jump down off the furniture (it was in her front left shoulder), but otherwise I didn't restrict her activity. She ran and played on the carpet in the condo, went up and down multiple flights of stairs daily, took normal walks, even went for hikes, albeit shorter ones than we had done previously and for 5 months we saw virtually no change. In October things started to progress a little, moreso in November and in December I let her go. I can't imagine not having had those months to celebrate and spoil her and she had a great quality of life.

 

You just never know. Just get the x-ray.

[Roo]

I agree with Jen - better to know than not know. My terrier has two cancers at the moment - a few mast cell tumors and a couple hemangiosarcomas (our vet said that at the rate she's sprouting these things, taking them off probably isn't worth the risk). That, plus her heart disease, mean she's basically a ticking time bomb. But I know what we're dealing with, and I'm vigilant about her behavior. As long as she's still eating (now that I've finally gotten her eating ) and can walk our usual .75 mile, she's still doing well. She gets excited about stuff. It's not her time yet because she's acting like her weird, grandmotherly, normal self.

 

It sounds like Honor is still acting mostly fine, other than the limp (his reluctance to lay in a bed could be pain or could just be because he senses that you're upset - Daisy gets extra clingy when I'm sad or anxious about something). Pain can be managed, which it sounds like you're already doing. As long as he is comfortable and the cancer hasn't progressed too much, I don't think it's unreasonable to take him in for x-rays this week and still plan to attend the Hound Walk on Sunday. Even if you don't want to let him linger and let the cancer become more advanced (which I totally understand - we did this with our first hound - euthanasia upon diagnosis, but he was pretty bad off at that time), getting the x-rays now and having a diagnosis wouldn't be a bad idea. Then you can spoil him for the next few days until the walk on Sunday and have a euthanasia appointment for Monday, if it is indeed osteo (fingers crossed it isn't, though!).

 

I definitely understand why you would want to euthanize right then, but if you really want him to attend the hound walk on Sunday (which does sound like fun!), there's no harm in setting a euthanasia appointment for Monday, keeping him on pain meds, and enjoying those last few days. (Again, assuming it is actually osteo, which I hope it's not!)

[MaryJane]

It could also be a corn on one of his pads.

 

Regardless, I would not have him walking if he is limping -- taking him to the event is fine, just not walking.

[MP_the4pack]

You don't want to consider amputation?

 

I just went that route with my 9 yr old. She is loving life.

[Rickiesmom]

It is always better to know. And while osteo can strike anytime, 7 years old is pretty young. Have the x-rays done now. If it is osteo, then you are saving him from pain once described to me as bone slowly exploding from the inside. In spite of which, amazingly, dogs are very good at masking that pain. And the risk of a catastrophic break.

 

If it is something else, then you can move forward accordingly, instead of living with a mixture of dread, denial and fractured hope.

 

Many of the people posting on this thread including me have lost one or more hounds to osteo. We understand what you are going through, and our thoughts are coming from a place of shared concern and empathy.

[KickReturn]

That's faulty logic, no offense. If you know you'd put him to sleep if the x-ray showed cancer and you're just avoiding the x-ray so you can keep him alive without feeling guilty, it just doesn't make sense.

 

Really, with bone cancer you cannot predict whether or when a fracture will occur. A radiologist once told me that he had seen dogs break bones with almost no evidence of cancer (and I've seen it a number of times on this site where the fracture is the first clue anything was wrong) and he's seen dogs who he couldn't believe were walking that seemed fine. But generally speaking, if there isn't a lot of damage to the bone yet, there's a much less significant risk of a fracture than if the bone is eaten away. I understand not keeping a dog in pain when he has a fatal disease, but I don't think the issue needs to be so black and white. You may very well be able to manage his pain just fine with meds. Many years ago, Neyla was diagnosed in May with osteo via x-rays. Her pain was managed completely with minimal meds for months and we did x-rays periodically to monitor for bone changes so I could put her to sleep if the bone was getting eaten away and fracture risk was increasing. I didn't let her run off leash outside and I made steps so she wouldn't jump down off the furniture (it was in her front left shoulder), but otherwise I didn't restrict her activity. She ran and played on the carpet in the condo, went up and down multiple flights of stairs daily, took normal walks, even went for hikes, albeit shorter ones than we had done previously and for 5 months we saw virtually no change. In October things started to progress a little, moreso in November and in December I let her go. I can't imagine not having had those months to celebrate and spoil her and she had a great quality of life.

 

You just never know. Just get the x-ray.

 

This is the insight I was looking for - thank you. X-ray tomorrow. I'll let y'all know the outcome.

Edited March 8, 2017 by KickReturn

[peglywegly]

Hi KickReturn,

 

thank you for asking what I have been wondering in my head for a couple of weeks. My boy Remy has had a front left leg limp. it comes and goes. the last couple of weeks it's been more evident. i know his lineage has some cancer and i dread getting the diagnosis. i have checked his pads, toes, wrist, he sleeps on the king size bed all day and on a xl twin bed at night. he just avoids dog beds becase he is a special dog. it took him years to get over being a spook, the adaptil plug ins and collar worked wonders for him. he still likes to run laps around the yard, he wants to go for walks, the limp is only pronounced right after he get up from sleeping.

 

i appreciate your asking and the answers from everyone.

[KickReturn]

Hi KickReturn,

 

thank you for asking what I have been wondering in my head for a couple of weeks. My boy Remy has had a front left leg limp. it comes and goes. the last couple of weeks it's been more evident. i know his lineage has some cancer and i dread getting the diagnosis. i have checked his pads, toes, wrist, he sleeps on the king size bed all day and on a xl twin bed at night. he just avoids dog beds becase he is a special dog. it took him years to get over being a spook, the adaptil plug ins and collar worked wonders for him. he still likes to run laps around the yard, he wants to go for walks, the limp is only pronounced right after he get up from sleeping.

 

i appreciate your asking and the answers from everyone.

 

If the limp seems to lessen as he get moving, then it is more likely a soft tissue injury like tendonitis, or perhaps arthritis. These sorts of injuries or conditions are relieved somewhat with motion up to a point - same as with people. My experience with my first grey and cancer was that the limp was slight, or off and on for a few weeks, and then all of a sudden it got more serious. Motion, rest, or anti-inflammatories made no difference. Pain meds did help.The worsening of the limp was also accompanied by occasional diarrhea and increased drinking and urinating - pretty much what I am seeing now which is why I am so suspicious. My current grey's grand sire was my first grey's sire- Kiowa Sweet Trey, so a tight genetic connection. Perhaps a factor - no way to really know.

Edited March 8, 2017 by KickReturn

[Charlies_Dad]

Good thoughts for your boy and you. I hope it is nothing serious.

[GeorgeofNE]

Imagine your have a very painful sprain. You have the option of 1) relaxing at home with your person, and having treats and loving, or 2) being taken on a greyhound walk with dogs and people you don't know, when every step is painful.

 

Which do you think your boy would pick?

[NeylasMom]

 

This is the insight I was looking for - thank you. X-ray tomorrow. I'll let y'all know the outcome.

Really hoping for good news for you. If the x-ray is inconclusive at all, I wouldn't hesitate to have your vet shoot it over to Dr. Couto for a second opinion.

[KickReturn]

Imagine your have a very painful sprain. You have the option of 1) relaxing at home with your person, and having treats and loving, or 2) being taken on a greyhound walk with dogs and people you don't know, when every step is painful.

 

Which do you think your boy would pick?

 

If it was me, and I could still weight bear and walk, I would want to be out and moving, and in fact I have done exactly that on many occasions throughout my life. When you can't, then it's obvious you can't, and then it's time to stay home. But when you still can, I believe you should. And for Honor, his single greatest joy in life is to meet a new person or a new dog. He will stop, refuse to move, and cry if he can't approach to say hello.

 

Off to the vet right now for the X-ray. Fingers crossed.

Edited March 8, 2017 by KickReturn

[KickReturn]

Good news, X-ray is clear. More then just clear. Everything looks first rate including the portion of spine that was captured. The vet simply could not get a pain response. Tried everything. The fact that an anti-inflammatory had no effect suggests some kind of nerve pain. We have a very good animal chiropractor in town. Worth a check up with her. Right now it's a mystery, but it's still one heck of a limp for no obvious reason.

[XTRAWLD]

I chased Ryder's mysterious limp for years with supplements and chiro. If you can, opt for an MRI, it may reveal a disc/nerve issue for Honor.

[Houndtime]

Good news, X-ray is clear. More then just clear. Everything looks first rate including the portion of spine that was captured. The vet simply could not get a pain response. Tried everything. The fact that an anti-inflammatory had no effect suggests some kind of nerve pain. We have a very good animal chiropractor in town. Worth a check up with her. Right now it's a mystery, but it's still one heck of a limp for no obvious reason.

 

I'll be you are breathing easier right now.

[ramonaghan]

Great news! What a huge relief. I am a little confused on one point: I thought you'd been giving him Gabapentin, which does target nerve pain, rather than an anti-inflammatory. For what it's worth, Sweep's limp did not respond at all to Gabapentin either, but she does well with Previcox (NSAID). Regardless, I hope rest and the right meds do the trick for Honor.