Hookworm!

[incredibletaco]

Hey y'all. I've been wondering with all this talk of hookworms and treatment, did anyone see behavior changes (irritability, aggression) while you were battling hookworms and giving medication?

[Daks]

Hey y'all. I've been wondering with all this talk of hookworms and treatment, did anyone see behavior changes (irritability, aggression) while you were battling hookworms and giving medication?

 

We found that our hound got very restless on panacur, he was also restless on Drontal, but because it's just one day it's not as noticeable (as opposed to 3 to 5 days of Panacur).

 

No noticeable effects with the Advantage Multi- But we don't follow the PDF that recommends giving AM twice a month- it's a medication that's designed to reach a steady state after 3 months, double dosing seems very dangerous. I have yet to find a vet who is comfortable giving AM twice a month.

[Bizeebee]

Hey y'all. I've been wondering with all this talk of hookworms and treatment, did anyone see behavior changes (irritability, aggression) while you were battling hookworms and giving medication?

We just finished the Prison Protocol (to the letter) and I dont think there were any of those kind of behavioral things that we really noticed, But, we started the protocol as soon as we got him and we're now just settling into a "normal" monthly flea/tick kind of routine, so we didn't really have a baseline before treatment.

[NewGrey2017]

Mine often got sick from the Drontal. Once he was clear, it's been Advantage Monthly once a month since.

 

He's been a bit grouchy, growly, snappy, barky since the day we got him, so hard to say if anything makes this worse.

 

We got him tested and his thyroid is all messed up. After 8 months on thyro-tabs, this is finally improving.

[PaddysDad]

Haven't noticed any irritability or aggression while on any of the meds, but drontal makes her nauseous, and even Advatage Multi kills her appetite for a couple of days. No reaction at all to panacur.

[Zoomdoggie]

Our boy got restless/irritable from one day of Drontal, yet I noticed no changes when going to 5 days of Panacur. I also noticed no behavioural changes with AM.

[cgs]

Percy is NEGATIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

We got him one year ago tomorrow. We did drontal. We did panecur. We kept him on Advantage Multi only. We went back to panecur and advantage multi every two weeks. In December he was still moderate (11-30) for hooks, as he had been the entire time except once when he went down to low. So in mid-December, I went back to Drontal plus followed the next day be Advantage Multi and did this ever two weeks. After 5 rounds of that, he came back negative! Finally! I have one more dose of Drontal that I'll give him and I'll keep him on the Advantage Multi every two weeks I guess and then test again in a month? Or two months? When should I retest?

 

I called the vet for the fecal results and the person who answered just so casually said everything was negative. I'm so used to "hold on, let me get the doctor."

 

FWIW, I used Drontal Plus and Advocate from http://www.bestdealpetsupply.com/ AKA petsupplyexpress (but the petsupplyexpress.com shopping cart doesn't work well.) The Drontal plus is a different shape and just one tablet for 75 lbs, so it's even cheaper than it seems. And easier to give since just one tablet instead of 1.5. I used Paddy's dad butter butter method (smoosh pill in butter and follow immediately with another pat of butter.)

 

Fingers crossed for another negative fecal and we've had below freezing temps on and off so hopefully the yard is clear (and I've picked up every day and our little dog lies in the yard all the time and has stayed hook free.)

 

I think that along with the drontal prison protocol, it does just take a lot of time.

Edited February 23, 2019 by cgs

[smt]

Quick question on poop quality after dosing with Drontal Plus. We gave our hook positive Ruby her first dose of Drontal Plus about 48 hours ago. Her poop is getting even more "loose". It has been the consistency of pudding up until today, and now it is turning into full-blown runny diarrhoea. Could this be worm shedding? Is this a normal Droanal side effect at this stage, post dosing? If so, when should we see improved stools? Tomorrow, she starts her first treatment of monthly Advantage Multi, then a re-dose of Drontal Plus on 3/15. In my heart, I am prepared for months of Drontal dosing. The vet seems to think that just a couple of wormings will do the trick. I do not think they are steeped in the saga surrounding the GH's and hooks. They are about to be, though.

[Bizeebee]

Quick question on poop quality after dosing with Drontal Plus. We gave our hook positive Ruby her first dose of Drontal Plus about 48 hours ago. Her poop is getting even more "loose". It has been the consistency of pudding up until today, and now it is turning into full-blown runny diarrhoea. Could this be worm shedding? Is this a normal Droanal side effect at this stage, post dosing? If so, when should we see improved stools? Tomorrow, she starts her first treatment of monthly Advantage Multi, then a re-dose of Drontal Plus on 3/15. In my heart, I am prepared for months of Drontal dosing. The vet seems to think that just a couple of wormings will do the trick. I do not think they are steeped in the saga surrounding the GH's and hooks. They are about to be, though.

We definitely noticed worse poops the day or two after dosing, but our non-dose-day poops were never quite as bad as some (and you) have experienced. We also don't really know what our hounds worm count was, as the vet never told us when we were getting positive results.

 

For our guy, poop improvement was much more dependent on finding a food that agreed with him. That's kind of hard when you know there are multiple variables at play, but we definitely noticed a difference with the three or four we tried. And we supplemented with Olewo carrots a lot when we first got him, that definitely helped keep things firm while we were figuring things out and he was settling in.

 

Others will chime in, I'm sure, with dosing specific shedding or side effects they may have seen.

[cgs]

Your girl is very new to you, so I would guess her poop situation has a lot to do with food and stress. Percy's poop was AWFUL when we first got him--pooped all the time and it was always runny or pudding at best. It took some time and food changes for it to settle down. Even now, it's sometimes soft. I swear every other bag of dog food I get (same brand) doesn't quite agree with him as well. I mix some new bag in with old bag before I start the new bag, but still, it seems there's enough variation in the bags that his poop will get a bit worse for the full duration of the bag sometimes.

 

Anyway, lots of people here have good luck with Purina in the green bag (which worked for us until the changed the formula and added fruit) or Eukanuba large breed chicken, which is what we use now. I'd like to get him back on Costco (Kirkland brand) because it's way cheaper, but not ready to experiment again yet.

 

Also, his poop hasn't really changed much or really at all since being worm free. There were times it was great and I was sure he was worm free and he wasn't. It's good now for the most part. We would sometimes notice a more mucousy poop after drontal, but nothing really dramatic.

 

For us, firm poop was accomplished with food, olewo carrots and now we give him brown rice every night after dinner and I think that really helps. For you, I think a lot of it is time, as your girl is probably still a bit stressed and adjusting.

[smt]

Your girl is very new to you, so I would guess her poop situation has a lot to do with food and stress. Percy's poop was AWFUL when we first got him--pooped all the time and it was always runny or pudding at best. It took some time and food changes for it to settle down. Even now, it's sometimes soft. I swear every other bag of dog food I get (same brand) doesn't quite agree with him as well. I mix some new bag in with old bag before I start the new bag, but still, it seems there's enough variation in the bags that his poop will get a bit worse for the full duration of the bag sometimes.

 

Anyway, lots of people here have good luck with Purina in the green bag (which worked for us until the changed the formula and added fruit) or Eukanuba large breed chicken, which is what we use now. I'd like to get him back on Costco (Kirkland brand) because it's way cheaper, but not ready to experiment again yet.

 

Also, his poop hasn't really changed much or really at all since being worm free. There were times it was great and I was sure he was worm free and he wasn't. It's good now for the most part. We would sometimes notice a more mucousy poop after drontal, but nothing really dramatic.

 

For us, firm poop was accomplished with food, olewo carrots and now we give him brown rice every night after dinner and I think that really helps. For you, I think a lot of it is time, as your girl is probably still a bit stressed and adjusting.

We have had her almost 5 weeks, and I suppose I forget that it could take a lot more time for her to really settle in. FWIW, we have her on Iams Green minichunks, per so many endorsements on the forum. So far, it has not been the wonder food for us as it has for others. But, I digress . . .

[cgs]

Oh the iams green bag is what I meant, not purina. They changed the formula after we got our first bag, so the second bag was awful. I wonder how many here are still having good luck with it. For Percy, I *think* the culprit is fruit. It's like the last ingredient, but any food with blueberries or something like that tends to give him pudding poop.

[Time4ANap]

Petunia had her first visit with our vet yesterday. She is slightly anemic, and still positive for hookworm as her spay/dental appointment noted in December. . We've been using Panacur and getting some pretty nasty stuff out of her, but made the decision with the vet to switch to the Prison Protocol since her worm treatment was a little inconsistent in the past based on the few records we have while she was a foster. I want to get these beasts out of her ASAP. She does also have a cough after she drinks and occasionally while sleeping which the vet feels is related to the hooks as well.

 

She is feeling much better after the Panacur, but she came from a farm in Alabama and was a broodie, so I feel like we should be doing the Prison Protocol for the best chance of getting rid of the hooks.

[DaintyDutchess]

I am interested to hear about the greyhounds who have/had life long hooks and how the owners manage them. Were the greys lives shortened significantly due to hookworm complications? If so, what were they?

My grey has had the crap de wormed out of her since 2017. So now what?? I have had long discussions with our vet. Still no understanding of when and how often to de worm when its been so long. It is naive to think that when a greyhound has had hooks for most of their life that they could ever really rid of them. A grey will always have them, so how is it safe or effective to keep de worming when it isnt getting rid of the hooks completely? If the deworming isn't as often will they just get out of control again?

I just saw a small amount of blood in my greys stool after she has been having good formed ones. I really dont get it. Used and alternated Panacur/Safeguard, Drontal Plus, Strongid, & Advantage Multi. Followed the prison protocol...so many questions and no answers...

[cleptogrey]

i always read up on all the hookworm post and it just hit me that one big medical post about protocol and clean up and resources would be a good subject in the section where blood values and other medical info is listed. i've sent the prison protocol to friends and it was a PITA locating it.

[PaddysDad]

She is feeling much better after the Panacur, but she came from a farm in Alabama and was a broodie, so I feel like we should be doing the Prison Protocol for the best chance of getting rid of the hooks.

 

The prison protocol is the only thing that worked for us, and after a year, I only wish that we knew about it in the beginning and didn't waste a few months with the standard hook treatment.

 

We have introduced a few vets to it and numerous adopters.

[PaddysDad]

I am interested to hear about the greyhounds who have/had life long hooks and how the owners manage them. Were the greys lives shortened significantly due to hookworm complications? If so, what were they?

My grey has had the crap de wormed out of her since 2017. So now what?? I have had long discussions with our vet. Still no understanding of when and how often to de worm when its been so long. It is naive to think that when a greyhound has had hooks for most of their life that they could ever really rid of them. A grey will always have them, so how is it safe or effective to keep de worming when it isnt getting rid of the hooks completely? If the deworming isn't as often will they just get out of control again?

I just saw a small amount of blood in my greys stool after she has been having good formed ones. I really dont get it. Used and alternated Panacur/Safeguard, Drontal Plus, Strongid, & Advantage Multi. Followed the prison protocol...so many questions and no answers...

I think it all depends on how bad the larval leak situation is. The worse it is, the longer it takes to rid the body of all those resident eggs. We seem to have beaten them with the prison protocol, and are now back on just monthly HG+ to keep them in check after running the Advantage Multi/Advocate once a month for an additional few months after we got the all clear.

 

Once the hooks have been identified as being "resistant" to the traditional treatments, I haven't heard of anyone being able to clear them without using the prison protocol.

 

I don't know that Panacur is any less or more effective than Drontal, and have used both, but the schedule and use of the Advantage Multi seems to be a must. So does picking up the poop as soon as it hits the ground to reduce any environmental factor.

 

There have also been some cases where untreated dogs were so full of adult hooks that the dogs hemorrhaged. I have heard about one case locally from a vet, and another from a member here who lost a new greyhound.

Oh the iams green bag is what I meant, not purina. They changed the formula after we got our first bag, so the second bag was awful. I wonder how many here are still having good luck with it. For Percy, I *think* the culprit is fruit. It's like the last ingredient, but any food with blueberries or something like that tends to give him pudding poop.

 

We are still using the green bag minichunks here for Paddy, but his sister stopped eating it cold one day. I'm not sure if it was due to a recipe change or an association to medication that she was on at the time, but it was still working well for them until then, and stiil good for him now.

 

I hate when they change formulas. Mars is especially bad for this.

i always read up on all the hookworm post and it just hit me that one big medical post about protocol and clean up and resources would be a good subject in the section where blood values and other medical info is listed. i've sent the prison protocol to friends and it was a PITA locating it.

There are a few pages in this thread that list the links to the protocol and to the medication sources. One of those would make a good sticky for the health section.

[DaintyDutchess]

PaddysDad thank you for your reply and input! :-)

[cgs]

Percy had finally gotten a negative hook result in late February. I just retested and the vet told me he is antigen positive, but egg negative. This counts as being positive and I have to re-treat. I had been treating every two weeks with drontal plus/advocate. After the Feb test result, I think I treated one more time at the end of Feb (because I had one more dose of Drontal), and then went to just using advocate monthly--so he got Advocate at the end of March and so far nothing in April. 

So I'm going to order more Drontal and test again after a few rounds. Has anyone else ever had this antigen positive/egg negative result? The vet said the lack of eggs could be due to intermittent shedding, or single sex worms. What I'm not sure about (and I should probably call back to clarify) is whether this is a different test than last time or whether he was antigen negative last time. I'm sure they would have said if he had been antigen positive. 

Also, I can't find Advocate on the petsupplyexpress.com site or the bestdealpetsupply.com site which is the same company and much cheaper than anywhere else. It's in England, but they don't seem to have Advocate right now. 

[Bizeebee]

1 hour ago, cgs said:

Percy had finally gotten a negative hook result in late February. I just retested and the vet told me he is antigen positive, but egg negative. This counts as being positive and I have to re-treat. I had been treating every two weeks with drontal plus/advocate. After the Feb test result, I think I treated one more time at the end of Feb (because I had one more dose of Drontal), and then went to just using advocate monthly--so he got Advocate at the end of March and so far nothing in April. 

So I'm going to order more Drontal and test again after a few rounds. Has anyone else ever had this antigen positive/egg negative result? The vet said the lack of eggs could be due to intermittent shedding, or single sex worms. What I'm not sure about (and I should probably call back to clarify) is whether this is a different test than last time or whether he was antigen negative last time. I'm sure they would have said if he had been antigen positive. 

Also, I can't find Advocate on the petsupplyexpress.com site or the bestdealpetsupply.com site which is the same company and much cheaper than anywhere else. It's in England, but they don't seem to have Advocate right now. 

Just spitballing biology here (I'm not a vet, but maybe a couple will weigh in) - if he's negative for eggs, then by process of elimination isn't he probably also negative for adult worms? As far as I understand, Drontal only kills adult worms. Honest question - does your vet feel it's advisable to keep treating with Drontal if it seems like the things Drontal kills aren't there?

Whereas, the Advocate/Advantage Multi kills the eggs/larva that hide in the tissue, which obviously must still be there for the antigen test to come up positive.

Do you, or your vet (or anyone) know how long it takes for the body to show a negative antigen test after an infection?

I'm not sure of a good place to find Advocate (sorry), but we switched to a new drug (just moxidectin) called Coraxis so that we can do flea and tick prevention without doubling up on drugs. You might see if you can source that one cheaper than Advocate/Advantage Multi.

[cgs]

His previous test was both antigen negative and egg negative. So I'm not sure how the antigen stuff works. Vet said egg-negative could be due to sporadic egg shedding or single sex worms, so no eggs. I didn't know Drontal only kills adults. I just ordered more, so I guess I'll give it in case it's the single sex thing. But why would it have been antigen negative before? So confusing.

[cgs]

This says antigens are secreted by adult worms.

https://www.idexx.eu/globalassets/documents/education/petchek/1709060-1017-eu_petchek_research-update.pdf

So he was previously clear of adult worms and eggs, but now has adult worms but currently no eggs? That doesn't make sense unless there were a couple stray eggs that weren't seen and have since hatched? And are the same sex (or not currently shedding)? I wonder if that makes sense.

Unfortunately, it'll take some time for the Drontal to get here. I wish there were a way to test that didn't cost $40 a pop. I'd be testing every week.

[Time4ANap]

11 hours ago, cgs said:

 

Also, I can't find Advocate on the petsupplyexpress.com site or the bestdealpetsupply.com site which is the same company and much cheaper than anywhere else. It's in England, but they don't seem to have Advocate right now. 

It is listed as Advantage Multi with (Advocate) in parentheses on the Pet supply Express web page.  It is there. 

[cgs]

Thanks. Pet Supply Express seems to have multiple websites. Last time I had trouble with checking out at petsupplyexpress.com. They told me to use bestdealpetsupply.com. Couldn't find Advocate there, so I emailed them and they told me to use http://www.petsuppliesnet.com/advantage-multi.htm.

[Bizeebee]

19 hours ago, cgs said:

This says antigens are secreted by adult worms.

https://www.idexx.eu/globalassets/documents/education/petchek/1709060-1017-eu_petchek_research-update.pdf

So he was previously clear of adult worms and eggs, but now has adult worms but currently no eggs? That doesn't make sense unless there were a couple stray eggs that weren't seen and have since hatched? And are the same sex (or not currently shedding)? I wonder if that makes sense.

Unfortunately, it'll take some time for the Drontal to get here. I wish there were a way to test that didn't cost $40 a pop. I'd be testing every week.

Interesting, that's good to know. Weird that a fecal float doesn't detect adults - but your float definitely could have just missed seeing eggs. At least that means the Drontal should be worth it.

As far as wishing for a cheaper test, there is a way, but it involves some investment up front and your time. I looked into it but didn't end up pulling the trigger, but you can get a decent microscope on Amazon and run your own floats as often as you want. It's kind of an involved process (a lot of steps) and pretty gross (first step is to make poop water), but can definitely be done. I know I had found pretty good instructions for doing so on the web, back when I was thinking about it.