Newly Adopted Female Grey-Attacked Another Dog

[Guest Smashley]

Hi all,

 

Firstly thank-you to all the contributors for your advice and wisdom - I have been reading through the forum for a few months, since adopting our little girl, and feel so much more equipped to give her the best chance at success with the knowledge I have gained from you all

 

I was hoping to never have to post some thing like this but yesterday I had a terrifying experience with Essie. Essie is a 2 1/2 year old girl who is extremely friendly and loving to all people she meets. Unfortunately, this does not seem to extend to other dogs. I had noticed that she was quite dominant when she met other dogs on walks, initially standing still with a wagging tail, but increasingly putting her head over their neck and nibbling (biting?) at the area behind their ears. Some dogs really got freaked out by this, squealing and falling to the ground. As a result I have kept her away from all dogs when walking, taking advice from others on this site to warn other dog owners that Essie can be a bit too rough!

 

Yesterday however in an enclosed area with no other dogs I let her off her leash for a run. Unfortunately on the other side of the oval, a woman came in with her whippet who she also let off the leash. Essie sprinted for this dog like I have never seen her run and appeared to attack her, with the dog squealing loudly. Essie then continued to chase this dog, much to my horror and that of the whippets owner and chased this dog all the way out the park (the woman left the gate open) and across a busy street. I was almost hysterical, certain that Essie was going to kill this dog and/or be hit and killed by a car. I can't really express how horrible this moment was and how fearful I was.

 

Thankfully, somehow both dogs made it across the street safely and the whippet was uninjured, except for an injured claw (which I imagine was from the panicked running). I am now terrified that my dog is at risk of hurting or even killing another dog. I WILL NOT be letting her off the leash again, I just feel I can't take the risk. My other fear is that we are currently introducing her to our cat and am worried that this behaviour signifies she will never be safe around him.

 

Any advice/words of wisdom etc would be greatly appreciated. I know greyhounds are animals that respond to instinct but I feel so sad that Essie would hurt another dog (silly I know!)

 

Thank-you all in advance

 

Lisa

[DocsDoctor]

My gut feeling on reading your account is that Essie is probably trying to incite the other dogs to play. "Nip [on the back of the neck] and chase" is how greyhounds like to play together. The fact that the whippet was uninjured bears this out.

 

However you can't let her practice this behaviour if it frightens another dog*. Quite apart from it being bad manners, you run the risk that if the other dog panicks and squeals this could arouse her prey drive, and in the blink of an eye lead to tragedy, especially with a small dog. (I once saw my old chap catch a squirrel in the park. He took it by the back of the neck, and shook it. It was dead in an instant.)

 

The other risk is that Essie herself will get hurt. Greyhounds' thin skin tears very easily, so if the other dog retaliates by biting, even just a play-bite, you could end up at the vet's.

 

So yes, keep her on the lead when there are other dogs around. As you get to know each other better, and she settles into domestic life and makes some regular doggie friends you may be able to revisit this but better safe than sorry!

 

I have no experience re cats so will let others help you with that, but note that most greyhounds seem to be able to learn to live with their 'own' cat even if others remain off-limits.

 

*It's worth noting that different breeds of dog play in different ways - jumping up, wrestling, etc. - so plenty of scope for confusion for a greyhound who has most likely not met other breeds of dog before!

[robinw]

I agree with Clare. If she wanted to hurt the other dog, she would have.

 

Introduce her to the cat slowly and make sure she is muzzled and her leash is tied to your waist. Also, don't hold the cat. Make sure the cat is on the ground, just to be safe.

Edited July 25, 2015 by robinw

[JohnF]

*It's worth noting that different breeds of dog play in different ways - jumping up, wrestling, etc. - so plenty of scope for confusion for a greyhound who has most likely not met other breeds of dog before!

 

Hi, and welcome to to the Board. Sorry your first post needed to be one of 'those'.

 

Yes, it is that other-breed confusion and prey drive mentality to attack anything that squeals and flees in fear that can make letting a Greyhound off leash so problematical. Even my Peggy has a trait which means she will incite rough play with 'roars' and pseudo-nips, but the worse thing is that she will join in with other dogs that are chasing each other normally in play and try to outdo them. You cannot let a greyhound do that because if one goes down it could be the end of it. So I never let Peggy run free in any park situation that could be competitive, and if she is to run with other greys they all must be muzzled or she stays on the leash.

 

In the UK we have 'keep dogs under close control at all times' laws in many park and public areas, and crystal clear on-leash at all times rules in certain areas usually where small children play. The 'under close control' law means just that... reliable recall, total obedience and vigilance on the part of the walker. Your dog becomes a Dangerous Dog in a public if it frightens someone or causes harm. So you are easily arrested an sueable. Letting Greys off leash here is not nearly so contentious at it is on the other side of the Atlantic, but the dangers are the same. We don't tend to have fenced dog parks either so the running off issues are worse.

 

For now you're going to need to keep Essie on the lead where there are dogs you don't know running around. What in greyhound play is a pinning down by the throat, will not always be play with other dogs that don't react right.

[ramonaghan]

So sorry this happened and glad both dogs are okay. I mainly wanted to weigh in on your cat concerns: indoors and outdoors are totally different, so there's no reason to think based on this incident that Essie won't do fine with a cat inside. Sweep lives peacefully with two cats and has never tried to chase or hurt either of them indoors. However, several months back my cat Olive darted out the back door when I was coming back in with Sweep, and it was like a switch flipped in her head and she gave chase. She did not injure Olive (who eventually climbed up the side of the house), but it was a terrifying thing to witness. Once inside again, Sweep acted like nothing had happened and they've been fine ever since. Unless Essie is demonstrating behaviors like fixating on the cat to the point where she can't be distracted from him, drooling, or chasing, there's no reason to suspect she won't be safe around him.

[Remolacha]

I agree that it sounds like Essie, who at 2 1/2 is still mentally very puppy like, was just wanting to play. I wouldn't let her interact with other dogs until you get to know her better and she has adjusted to home life a little more. I am not sure how long you have had her? One exception to that is, if you can find a greyhound only play group, or even know someone with one or a few greys and an area where you can let them all safely play off leash (muzzled, of course) you can better judge Essie's reactions. I would bet they would have a great play time, which can look scary to someone who has never seen greys play

 

As for the cat, did whoever you got Essie from say she had been cat tested and was OK with them? If so, do like Robin said and she will probably do fine. Make sure the cat has somewhere (inside) to escape to. I have a baby gate installed in the doorway of a spare bedroom, about 8" off the floor, the cats can go in there when they want to get away from the dogs, but the dogs can't get in.

[Guest Smashley]

Hi all,

 

Thank-you are all your replies. I certainly feel a lot less anxious about Miss Essie and her killer-instincts! I think you are all correct in the assumption that Essie was trying to play-i think she just has no idea how to play! Interestingly when we meet other greys on our walks (and we see many, living in a suburb with lots of apartments!) she is almost disinterested in them, allowing them to sniff her, but with no real interest in playing. However when we see smaller dogs she is extremely keen to get up to them to say hi (which I don't allow) and then sniffs their trail excitedly, wagging and even jumping up in excitement! Which makes me worry that possibly these dogs are seen as 'prey' whilst other greys are not! All in all I agree that keeping her leashed for now is the safest option...hopefully one day she will be able to socialise more appropriately with other dogs.

 

JohnF-you would be amazed to see the number of greys that are allowed to walk off-leash, in unenclosed areas where we reside! We live in a relatively urban area so I am always amazed by this and the risk people are taking. I think this has given me a false sense of how Essie 'should' behave-expecting that she will progress to this in time. However having read through many topics on the forum I do not think I will ever be able to take this risk (particularly after this recent incident!).

 

In regards to our poor cat Alfalfa, Essie was tested as cat friendly, but Alfie is certainly not dog-friendly! Essie appears interested in Alfie but almost anxious...she tends to be unable to relax fully when he is around. Alfie on the other hand is very vigilant when Essie is around and runs away the second he gets the chance! Slowly however things appear to be progressing on this front...very, very slowly!

 

Thanks again all your advice and words of wisdom. I feel much less anxious about Essie but will remain vigilant with her around other dogs!

 

Lisa.

[Banjoman]

Because I would not risk anything happening when out on a walk i keep a muzzle on Chancey whenever we are out unless i am in a part of the forest where it seems we are less likely to meet other dogs, but I carry the muzzle with me. My concern is that if Chancey caught and injured a cat or another dog, especially something small & fluffy, she would be considered a "Dangerous dog" and could be put down and I am not prepared to take that risk with her life.

 

There is nowhere locally that is safe to let her off lead so she stays on all the time. She walks happily with 20+ greyhounds when we do a regular monthly sighthound walk but can still be excitable when meeting other dogs out in the forest, yodelling and leaping high in the air to go and play with them. I say "better safe than sorry" and keep her away unless she is quiet.

 

My whippets have always played by chasing and biting the back of each other's neck but I can imagine the whippet you met could have been scared when a greyhound tried to do that!

[PatricksMom]

Even if you can't find an official greyhound play group, is there someone in your adoption group with a pack you could muzzle (all of them) and let play off lead with?

[NeylasMom]

I am astonished that everyone is so quick to assume this was play. The incident with the whippet sounds like prey drive to me. A dog "who just wants to play" does not chase down a dog into traffic to the point of injury to the other animal and causing the other animal to scream in fear. That is NOT play. As for what she's doing to the dogs she meets on lead, maybe it's a misguided attempt at play, maybe not, but if she's causing other dogs to again squeal and fall to the ground, whatever she's doing is not appropriate play. You say her tail is wagging when she meets them - how? At what height (all the way up high, with or without the tip of the tail curled toward her head, at half mast, down low to the ground)? At what speed (gently and softly, hard and fast)? What type of movement (a side to side with very little movement, a wider side to side, more of a helicopter tail where the base of the tail is moving in circles)? Are her ears forward/up or back against her head? What does she do when the other dog gets scared?

 

I'm going to guess that you're answer is going to be a hard fast wag. That along with stiff body movement is not a dog wanting to play. It's arousal and it's typically not what you want her displaying as she meets another dog. Now if there's just a little nervousness and once hte dogs greet the body language softens and loosens, that's one thing, but it sounds like her arousal increases as she meets the dog, not lessens.

 

As far as your cat, inside is definitely different from outside,but it's always wise to use caution. You've had her for a bit now, the one thing I would advise is to not lose your vigilance until your cat has done all of the catty things he might do like running at top speed from one end of the house to another, playing with toys, vomiting, eating catnip and getting silly - all things that are more likely to elicit a prey reaction than simply, say, walking past the dog.

 

Ah, I just saw your second post. More evidence that this is prey drive, NOT play. Please exercise a lot of caution if you are going to allow her to meet other dogs. I would suggest perhaps skipping it, or putting a muzzle on her until you are more certain about her behavior and have more control over her. Enrolling in a reward-based training class where she would be working in proximity to other breeds of dogs without having ot interact with them would be a good idea and would give you someone more trained in animal behavior the chance to offer their insights. Just make sure you find someone who doesn't use any type of correction and trains primarily with food, then observe a class before signing up to make sure you are comfortable with the person and their methods (including how they teach the humans - does no good to find a trainer who is great about using positive reinforcement with the dogs but then makes you feel like crap if you don't catch on as quickly).

Edited July 27, 2015 by NeylasMom

[GreyTzu]

It sounds like prey drive to me. NeylasMon is an actual dog trainer and not a "keyboard" trainer. I would follow her suggestions.

[socalgreys]

I understand this...You did Nothing wrong! I agree, with others that it was prey drive. Now, the complicated part of this..how do we as humans, not point the finger? I just want to scream at the whippet owner for not closing the gate...on the other hand, we as humans may have a lot going on...so this is difficult not to do (putting blame, or at least questioning the whippet owner).

 

I am glad that neither dog was hurt, because they were just being dogs (sighthounds) doing what they do.

 

If I were in that situation, I would not go back there again.

 

It is not your fault

Edited July 28, 2015 by socalgreys

[Guest Smashley]

Hi all,

 

Thank-you for your responses. Yes, I am not planning at any time to allow her off the leash with other dogs in the vicinity (so only in enclosed backyards etc). Our plan is to take her for some training-I have a trainer who has come out to meet Essie and the cat (who has worked extensively with greyhounds) who felt that they will be fine together after the appropriate introductions (definitely with Essie muzzled!) I will give him a ring to see if he offers what you suggest Neylasmum.

 

I have to admit to feeling a little heartbroken re:prey drive! I had always wanted to have a dog that could be part of our lives, including our social lives (which may include other dogs!) but I can't take the chance that Essie would hurt another dog. Can I ask, is prey drive generally limited to smaller animals? I'm guessing it is but Essie has played with a husky and whilst she exhibited some of the neck nipping behaviour this was mostly bc the husky continually got in her face (he has no doggy social skills at all-he is notorious for it!) but otherwise she played fine with him-ignoring him for quite a bit of the time they were together in preference for pats from humans! So Im guessing it is the smaller animals we have to be extra vigilant around...although at present I don't know that I would ever feel safe to have her unleashed at this stage!

 

All in all I feel very disappointed that Essie has such a high prey drive she ignores cats and possums on our walks but it seems that other dogs are her preference. Very disappointing!

 

Thanks again for the responses.

 

Lisa

 

P.s what are people thoughts about Essie playing with other greys even muzzled? Is there a chance she could still hurt them?

[Guest Smashley]

Neylasmum-I should clarify that sometimes she wags her tail and sometimes she doesn't! When she first came to us she was generally much friendlier towards other dogs-standing with a softly wagging tail while they did their thing (sniffed her behind usually!) however there is a small terror type dog who lives in our apartment block who often is off the leash in the front yard who will go for her -barking and going to attack her when we leave for our walks. It seems (and perhaps I am just grasping at straws!) that her behaviour has become problematic since these interactions with this small dog.

 

Now she is easily able to be directed to move past other dogs but will wag her tail excitedly and sniff their trail and get all 'prancey' if that makes sense!

[JohnF]

>> P.s what are people thoughts about Essie playing with other greys even muzzled? Is there a chance she could still hurt them?>>

 

if all are muzzled properly and in a safe place and if everyone agrees then not a problem. Yes they can still knock each other over, any dog can.

 

I returned a Grey once over prey-drive, but she put a really hard eye, raised ears, straight tail, and standing-tall-stiff body language on the little white fluffy 'prey' dogs that squeaked and I knew she meant it. Peggy isn't like that, except with cats and squirrels. She can and does play with dogs that she knows, but if there is any chasing of unknown or stranger dogs going on she stays on a lead.

 

It is easy to lose confidence in your dog and you're doing the right thing by seeking out advice until you get to know the dog really well.

[Guest Smashley]

Thanks JohnF I think I am also just adjusting to the reality of Essie as opposed to my fantasy of what she would be like! We actually waited quite a while to adopt a dog as we wanted a dog that was cat and small dog friendly as well as good around kids. Well, one out of three ain't bad I guess (she LOVES kids)!! I am committed to Essie and making sure she is a safe dog, as well as a happy one. If that means she is never able to be off leash with other dogs, so be it, I am walking her and slowly working up her stamina for running so she is certainly getting plenty of exercise. She is also very affectionate with us and gets lots of attention and cuddles (which she also loves!) so all in all, things are pretty good!

 

As long as she doesn't eat our cat !!!!!

[Guest Smashley]

A new development! My partner (who walks Essie much less than me) has been saying that he doesn't see the behaviour that I see on our walks and interactions with other dogs. Today we took her to see the Osteo together, and remarkably, Essie met a number of small dogs without any issue whatsoever! I still didn't let her interact with them as a precaution, but it made me wonder whether she is acting out only for me? Is this even possible? If so, do people have any ideas why this might be?

[JohnF]

>>>, but it made me wonder whether she is acting out only for me? Is this even possible? If so, do people have any ideas why this might be?>>>

 

Yes, that's part of it, you're going through a 'confidence-wobble' as a result of finding reason to be re-analysing your dog's behaviour. As much as it might be popular today to poke fun at Dog Whisperer Ceasar Milan and his 'positive energy projection' theory, it is a given that if you act nervously then dogs pick it up and go on heightened-alert. With sight-hounds this is especially so and more dangerous because they are big and very quick.

 

I wish I could describe Peggy's mentality better because then you'd see a dog that's fine with little dogs she meets and gets to know in social settings in the park where we might be standing around in a group with the dogs off leash. She's fine with other dogs she knows in the garden too. What she probably wouldn't be fine with is if another dog elsewhere in the park, say even 50 yards away, got chased by another dog and ended up running away squealing in a panic and then if one of the dogs in our group decided to take off after it, she would go into a state of alertness (her hackles don't go up) she'd weigh things up and then take off if I hadn't spotted the potential problem. Not so much alpha as a keen lieutenant who is quick to join in. She's not a nasty dog, just a 'cussed' one. Now she's older and I have the measure of her I can even have her on an extending lead in a park or field or on the moor. Do not do that with a new dog as they'll snatch it from your hand in an instant, so an absolute no-no on roads. Many Greys are not the kind of dogs that let you get away with chatting absent-mindedly to friends or, as too many do, just take their smartphone for a walk and ignore the dog. Often it is the laid-back non-cuddly ones which are easier... every dog is so different from the next one.

 

You can relax with a dog on a lead, the dog doesn't mind it, the dog doesn't even mind a muzzle as it is a 'going-out' thing. Off leash times here in the UK just need to be thought about more carefully in terms of time of day and people with frightened little dogs about. (ie. just after school is bad as kids get home and take their dogs out and are usually on the phone.) Greys often mellow too.

[racindog]

EVERYTHING goes down the leash. No doubt she feels your apprehension when approaching other dogs and then thinks that if you are apprehensive than maybe she should be too?-that there is something she needs to be on guard about going on based on the message you are sending down the leash? But you have plenty of time for you both to grow and mature and meld your souls together. But for her sake I deinitely would NOT trust her at this point to approach other dogs unmuzzled. Your first priority is to protect her. They actually look to their handler for protection. You want her to believe that you will protect her from other dogs, peoples etc. then she doesn't fell the need to be anxious. Just love her, and make a 'show' when opportunity presents of protecting her** so she begins to understand that she doesn't need to be apprehensive or aggressive because Mom's there! But this takes TIME to happen if it will at all so don't rush it. Just enjoy each other.

 

**don't ask her to approachh or be friendly with others; let her stand behind you; put your body between her and another dog- they are real sensitive to body language. She won't miss cues like this and may actually begin to 'ask' you to do it once she realizes you understand

 

BTW prey drive is a GOOD thing. Really you should be happy she has it. You will be able to much more easily teach obedience, play ball games etc, and she would probably do much better and be a good dog for Nosework and such things-which are a lot of fun! Drive helps a dog be all they can be. Yeah, its a little something extra to manage but it is definitely worth it.

Edited July 29, 2015 by racindog

[Guest Smashley]

Hi all,

 

Another question! Yesterday Essie and I met another female grey on a walk. As Essie was perfectly relaxed I allowed her to get a bit closer than I normally would to another dog (she is currently not allowed anywhere near other non-greys!) and as we owners chatted, the two girls got increasingly closer to each other until they were sniffing etc. Essie was perfectly behaved EXCEPT she began nibbling at this dog! She was doing it behind her neck and then along her body. Initially I had understood this to be 'chattering' that I had read about on this forum, but since having watched some YouTube clips of greys chattering-this is completely different! It does not seem aggressive and the other grey has absolutely no response. Essie then proceeded to mount (!) this girl, who again could not have cared less!

 

I have seen Essie exhibit this nibbling/biting on her stuffies, as well as attempting it on the cat (she was muzzled in a cat muzzle so no harm done!). Has anyone ever seen this behaviour before? My sense is that it is not aggressive-she seems entirely relaxed during this but clearly only greys think it is acceptable doggy behaviour!

 

The mounting makes me think she is trying to be dominant. Can anyone enlighten what these behaviours may mean?

 

Lastly, the lovely gentleman who owned the other female grey let me know that when he adopted his girl she was very aggressive towards other dogs and is now extremely nonchalant around them. His thoughts were that greys were more aggro towards other dogs as they were all new. Hoping Miss Essie will follow this path!

 

Thanks in advance

[turbotaina]

The nibbling is called "nitting". It's normally a playful thing and some dogs will do it to humans, too. That, together with the mounting behavior, makes me think she's very excited and doesn't know how control herself. It's not a dominance thing, but over-arousal. Think of it like a little kid who gets an awesome gift and he can't control his emotions, so he stamps his feet and screams gleefully. Your pup got excited to see this dog, nitted her, then mounted her because she didn't have an appropriate way to express her excitement (a playbow would have been a good start )

Edited August 1, 2015 by turbotaina

[Guest DarkHorse]

Araley nitted her stuffed toys all the time and was one of the most patient and sweet dogs with other animals, our cats included. She did get pretty excited to see other dogs, though, and would perk her ears, wag her tail, and playbow or stamp at them, especially when she was young. She was never much of a runner, though, so I can't imagine her taking off after another dog. And with Dexter being so laid-back, she learned pretty quickly that she had to be a little calmer if she wanted the dogs to come to her rather than him.

 

I'm not sure if you've got friends with greyhounds in the area, but it sounds like some of Essie's overstimulation may be loneliness. If you can walk her with other greys on a somewhat regular basis, she may start to calm down a little bit around other dogs. Definitely start with just one that's known as bomb-proof, and try to focus on the walk rather than letting her get all worked up meeting the other dog. If we were in your area, I'd offer Dexter, but you should be able to find someone, maybe through your adoption group.

[NeylasMom]

Mounting can be over arousal or anxiety. Really, no one here is going to be able to tell you what's going on since we can't see the dog. Video might help. Or get a professional involved.

[Guest Smashley]

Thanks all for your replies. Unfortunately we don't know any other greyhound owners but meet many on our walks so will hopefully build some connections!