Aggression When Hurt

[Sundrop]

I think I've posted more about our current boy than our other 4 greyhounds combined! He's a quirky guy, but we love him dearly and we are super concerned.

 

Tonight before his walk I went out to take out some recycling and he came with and decided to do some zoomies. He was running around the yard, happy as can be. He ran back up the deck to go inside and I noticed he was holding his back paw up - I took a look, and sure enough, he had sliced some skin clear off. It wasn't gushing blood, it was about the size of a small fingernail, maybe a little smaller.

 

We got him inside and my husband ran upstairs to get a non-stick gauze pad, anti-bacterial gel and vet wrap while I got a clean towel wet with warm water - just to hold it on the wound to get the blood and hopefully clean it a bit. When DH came downstairs, he went to put the warm towel on and there was snarling and a bite. It was through a pair of jeans & didn't break the skin (it's bruised now) - but we were just in shock. I suggested we put his muzzle on - which he let us do and we tried to remain calm, though we were both shaken.

 

Each time we got near the leg he lunged, snarled and bit at us. I have to say, I have never experienced dog aggression like this before and I was very nervous - for us and for him. I knew he was hurt, and obviously scared, but it was pretty bad. We eventually gave up because DH was losing his cool. DH went for a run, I went to the gym and we turned the radio on for Finn so he could just relax and be alone. He was happy as can be when we got home. We haven't gone near the wound, just looked at it from afar. It's not bleeding, and it doesn't look bad, just some missing skin - so painful, I am sure - but we've seen nicks like this before.

 

We do, however, want to make sure it stays clean and heals - but I am at a loss. He's our 5th greyhound and we've had injuries much more serious than this with nary a growl. This was full-on biting, lunging, snarling, growling, barking and panic to get away from us - even when we were only touching the other side of his leg (the non-hurt side).

 

What can we do now to help him through this? To show him we don't want to hurt him and to ease his fear? This is so out of character for him, and we've never dealt with this - so I want to make sure we don't screw up and make things worse. Any suggestions?

Edited April 15, 2016 by Sundrop

[Sundrop]

Wanted to add, my husband doesn't think he "bit" him, but rather hit him with his teeth as he was lunging and then tried to get the heck away from him. So in the fight-or-flight, we think he was "flight" and was just scared. He's chillin' now, his old happy self again.

 

On a side note, anyone know a greyhound-savvy behaviorist in the Charlotte area?

[Time4ANap]

My concern with that reaction is that it's a pain reaction. Maybe he also hurt a tendon, muscle or ligament and is protecting it. If he won;t let you check that then it may warrant a vet visit to be sure. Could he have twisted / sprained something when he tore the skin?

 

Rocket, who has space issues would probably be the same way if we attempted to fix something like that, especially if he was laying down. We always muzzle if we have to do something where we are down at face level or whe he can be in snapping range. I have never thought it was malicious, because to be honest, if they wanted to tear us apart, they probably could. One if us always has control of a short leash and his, even muzzled, and we keep him standing. He is perfectly cooperative with the vet, groomer and outsiders, but figures we are up to no good and will do his best to not go along with whatever it is we want to do.

[Brandiandwe]

How long have you had Finn?

 

One of ours, Brandi, is quite fear aggressive and pain averse. We've got her to the point of being able to clip nails (just), but dealing with wounds requires a lot of time, a muzzle and patience and understanding. It is actually bad enough that if she was injured badly enough to require intensive nursing, I would probably consider putting her down because she finds it so stressful. This is a dog we've had for over four years who is the most loving and affectionate dog. She is just fearful and aggressive in those situations. So you have my sympathy.

 

First, you need to be very calm but firm. Know what you need to do, have a plan and do it. I try to work in a pair. So one person holds the dog down or still and reassures, the other does the work. See if you can get a vet to show you how to handle safely.

 

Second, don't take it personally.

 

Third, work out what needs to be done. Small cuts etc I use a spray on antiseptic so I don't need to handle more than necessary.

 

Fourth practice between times. And build that bond of trust.

[greysmom]

Coming on top of everything else, he might just have hit a wall and been unable to cope with this last issue. Or he could have another injury that's not readily apparent that *is* quite painful - broken/dislocated toe, a sharp stick poked into his foot.

 

Or he could be like Fiona's girl above. Our Whiskey is a big wuss and always acts like he's going to DIE when he's hurt. Yesterday, he had a cramp in a shoulder muscle, and I literally thought he'd broken his leg - screaming, hopping, putting no weight on the leg, shaking and whining, more screaming. Once I could get to him, and look him over, I could clearly feel the cramping muscle, which a massage quickly helped. This afternoon, he somehow cut his stopper pad and I've spent the last three hours getting the bleeding under control because he won't let me touch it. He'll be fine, but omg!

 

Don't take it personally. He didn't mean anything except stop. I've tried to learn which battles to fight - how bad an injury is vs how much I need to mess with it. Use the muzzle if you nee to, and don't be afraid to take him in to the vet if you can't get a good handle on the problem yourself.

[Batmom]

In similar circumstances, one of mine did best with minimal restraint and on his feet (not lying down). He needed to feel he could get away if he wanted to. Could be your hound has similar feelings. I usually got by with kneeling on the leash and being gentle but firm about what needed to be done; of course muzzle if in any doubt. Best luck to you.

[MaryJane]

Muzzle and take it real slow.

 

A small percentage of greyhounds have a "foot thing". They don't want to have their feet handled and in very small amount of real tough cases, nail clips require tranquilizers/sedation. Luckily, most (IMO) of the greys that have the "foot thing" will let you handle their feet but, you need to be real easy, gentle, take it slow, and watch carefully because when they have had enough you can see their mouths start to move into a snarl - you want to stop before this happens.

 

My Lucy is like that, she will only tolerate a certain amount of foot work before she will lash out.

[Sundrop]

Thank you all so very much. He really has had a stressful few weeks, which is why I put an end to trying to treat him. When we both got home, I watched him carefully - no limping, no licking, holding his paw up, etc. He is happy to let me pet him and I gave him a good butt rub, I went down a little further on that leg and no response other than his normal happiness with a bum-scratch. Will keep an eye on him this weekend and he will go to the vet if he needs to.

 

We did notice on a recent vet visit that he freaked out when the vet lifted his foot to look at a little growth he had. She wasn't touching it, just lifted his paw and he was not happy - growled and struggled to get away. She ended up lying on the floor to get a look (she is awesome). He lets us touch his feet though, and doesn't seem to mind - it was just the foot with the growth that bothered him.

 

We definitely wouldn't attempt any of this while he is laying down - we kept him standing, but in addition to the melt-down, he was jerking his leg away and trying to bolt.

 

We have he him almost a year and this is his first injury. He did growl when we would handle the little growth on his foot, I can't remember what the vet called it, but she said it normally wasn't painful. He would let look at it, and I would touch it lightly, as I was trying to desensitize him and we wouldn't growl - but I would literally just pass over it.

 

He is just breaking my heart. I just want him to be healthy and happy and enjoy his retirement. Maybe once we adopt again some of his issues will lessen...

[Guest Jordan33]

In preparation for my first dog I've been doing some reading on dog behavior, and I have to recommend Bones Would Rain From The Sky by Suzanne Clothier. She talks a lot about dog aggression, and how to tell when your dog is upset and wants you to back off, because the bite is the last resort to get you to leave them alone. It's an eye opener for sure. This goes for dogs in pain, those who don't want to be hugged, other dogs getting too close or bothersome, etc.

 

She gives an example of you standing in line for a movie. The guy behind you is too close for comfort. You take a step forward. He takes two forward. You give him a "look". He puts a hand on your shoulder. You tell him to leave you alone. He puts his other arm around you. You whirl on him and slap him in the face. His reaction is "why did you do that?"

 

It's just a simple fact that most people don't know how to read a dog since they don't speak English, German, French...

 

I'm fascinated by this, because it makes sense to me.

 

That said, how do you then get the dog to let you touch him when he's hurt? Lots of treats as distraction, might help. Or see what a vet might recommend in the future should you need to do it again, though I hope you don't!

Edited April 16, 2016 by Jordan33

[FiveRoooooers]

When you do need to do something with him, a very good distraction can be to use a muzzle with a stool guard onto which you have slathered some peanut butter. Let him work on cleaning up the PB while you are busy with what you need to get done. I sing silly little songs to distract them, which helps me relax, keep talking in a low, calm voice about how handsome he is and how beautiful his toes are, make up silly stuff but keep the conversation going. And, remember to breathe. Andy and Trevor, both of whom I adopted as seniors, were *not good* about having their nails dremeled. They both got to where they slept/sleep through the dremeling without any "props". You can do it, good luck!

[krissy]

I'd work on lots of desensitization when he's not hurt. It's never going to be quite the same as having to do something to them that might be painful, or handling them when they're injured, but it can help a little if they're at least comfortable being handled.

 

When Kili hit adolescence, despite having been well socialized and practiced in handling, she became fearful of having her nails trimmed and getting needles. I worked very slowly with her on just the handling portions of getting blood drawn or a needle given - holding her in the restraint positions, holding off the vein. I worked up to giving her a little pinch as well - not quite the same as a needle stick, but at least to provide a level of "pain" stimulus. She is now okay for SQ needles and for blood draws, though I am always the one to restrain her and I choose which tech will be pulling blood very carefully (only patient, soft spoken techs with a lot of experience that won't have to fish for the vein).

 

I would not trust Kili not to bite if she was in serious pain. However, she does have good bite inhibition and is very used to her muzzle, so if I was concerned and had the ability I would always muzzle prior to handling her for something very painful. Treats also go a long way.

[Sundrop]

Thanks for the continued advice - we always have lots of treats on hand, and I will but some peanut butter for the stool guard on his muzzle (the thought of this cracks me up!).

 

During quiet times, I have been lightly petting his legs and feet to see his reaction - last night I was gently petting the front side of the hurt leg and got no reaction at all. I tried to gently pull the foot up so I could see the wound and his eyes got round and in he glared at me and then growled - so he is definitely protecting the wound. Got zero reaction with his other feet, toes, legs and tried this while standing and lying down. Seems it is less about the area of his body and more about injury guarding.

 

We have had his nails trimmed (at the vet) - I remember they did tell us they had to muzzle him for something, and he has only been to the vet a couple of times, so it must've been for that. I will ask them to muzzle on any procedure - in fact, he is getting his rabies vaccination and heartworm testing, as well as nail trim at the end of the month. I will ask them to be very calm and report back to me on how he handled each procedure to see if it is mainly injury-induced, or anything painful (i.e., shots, blood draws, etc.).

 

What do you all think of the peanut butter trick at the vet? I thought maybe I could slather peanut butter and freeze it, so when we get there it'll be slightly thawed. Or just do the muzzle with nothing and see how he is?

 

Will also work on handling his legs and feet more, maybe even wrapping his legs when nothing is wrong with an Ace wrap just to get him used to it.

 

Thanks again, honestly this has been so helpful. I now know he is just a very perceptive and sensitive guy who is somewhat insecure. Will work on trust building and be extra cautious and calm when dealing with any injury.

[racindog]

It is COMMONPLACE for some dogs to respond aggressively when they are injured or even just afraid they are injured or might be. When I first got Gilly Boy I had to muzzle him before I trimmed his toenails. I would imagine that someone previously had quicked him too often and so he threatened to bite me when I began to do it. Now I don't have to. It's kind of like barking- its a dog thing. I don't see it as an issue-especially with a dog as easy to handle as most greyhounds are. Just muzzle and take control-physically if necessary. It is not mean. If anything they seem to take some measure of comfort and security from their pack leader taking control. Its really want they want. The alternative would be to take them to the vet where the vet will do the exact same thing. Muzzle/restrain and treat the injury. A lot less stress on them if you do the muzzle/restraint/ and treatment at home if its something you can treat(way cheaper too!). I kind of doubt the food/distraction 'tricks' will work. At certain points many dogs go into a drive where they won't respond to food or possibly even toys for toy dogs. Depends on the dog, but he sounded pretty upset the way you described him.

Edited April 17, 2016 by racindog

[Sundrop]

I am honestly not sure how we would even be able to restrain him the way he was jumping, lunging and wrestling around. We both tried restraining, with collar and leash and he was jumping - unless we pin him the ground, which I do not want to do with a fearful animal, I am not sure how we would coordinate it. My husband was standing over him, with leash secured to the ground (he was stepping on it) and holding onto the front of his body and he was kicking and jerking his leg away from me. I think we need some training in how it's even physically possible when he is like this.

 

We have had to restrain a previous Grey to cut nails, but he we just scream and try to jerk his feet away - so we held his feet down (eventually we just started taking them to the vet for trims, because we were scared to injure him while he was squirming) - but this reaction was way more than squirming or just pulling away, and not sure how I'd get a gauze pad on him and wrap the leg, as I need two hands to do it. Logistically, I don't see how it's possible without 3 people...gonna call the vet on Monday, too. I am wondering if a mild sedative, or Xanax would be helpful?

[NeylasMom]

Yes to your last question. Forcefully handling a dog who is reacting that way is likely to increase aggression and damage your bond with your dog, as well as make it potentially more difficult to do things he tolerates now. You can use counter-conditioning and desensitization to get him more comfortable with handling, but the reality is he may need light sedation for certain things, especially when pain is involved.

 

Keep in mind too as you discuss with your vet how he reacts to procedures there that a muzzle is appropriate as a precaution for safety, but it shouldn't be used to put your dog in a situation you wouldn't otherwise put him into.

 

ETA: The muzzle with PB is worth trying at the vet - if things like nail clipping or blood draws are only mildly worrisome for him, but if it's something that's really going to agitate him, he's not going to eat. You're probably better off bringing something even higher value and just feeding it to him directly. I suggest meatballs.

Edited April 18, 2016 by NeylasMom

[greysmom]

Also keep in mind that many will scream bloody murder and fight YOU, while barely registering a complaint when someone else works on them. My Lilly went through a weird puppy-fear-phase where she would not let me touch her feet. Period. At all. She screamed, she cried, she wiggled, she pulled her feet away, she ran away and hid from me, and she finally growled and tried to bite me. At the vet, with the techs she LOVES, she just stood there while they clipped her nails. As long as she couldn't see *me* she was fine. So just something to keep in mind.

[racindog]

Yes to your last question. Forcefully handling a dog who is reacting that way is likely to increase aggression and damage your bond with your dog, as well as make it potentially more difficult to do things he tolerates now. You can use counter-conditioning and desensitization to get him more comfortable with handling, but the reality is he may need light sedation for certain things, especially when pain is involved.

 

Keep in mind too as you discuss with your vet how he reacts to procedures there that a muzzle is appropriate as a precaution for safety, but it shouldn't be used to put your dog in a situation you wouldn't otherwise put him into.

 

ETA: The muzzle with PB is worth trying at the vet - if things like nail clipping or blood draws are only mildly worrisome for him, but if it's something that's really going to agitate him, he's not going to eat. You're probably better off bringing something even higher value and just feeding it to him directly. I suggest meatballs.

I did not say "forcibly handle". I said restrain. Restraint when done properly rarely has negative side effects and surprisingly sometimes has positive ones as experienced handlers know. If someone does not know how to PROPERLY restrain a dog then AS I SAID take them to the vet and you can pay the vet techs to do it for you. Proper restraint does not cause aggression. Ignorant use of force will.

[Sundrop]

Thanks again, all - racindog, you are absolutely correct - we would want/need our vet practice to help show us how to properly restrain him to avoid injury to any of us or to damage our bond with him. Honestly 98% of the time, this guy is a big, goofy, friendly, loving guy. He adores people - more than any other grey we've owned - he will bounce up to any person he sees - old, young, kids, in a stroller, in a wheelchair, etc. - he just wants pets. I think he'd be a great therapy dog because he just loves people so much and when we've met people out on our walks on bikes, skateboards, wagons, walkers, etc. - he is curious, but not freaked out.

 

We are being extra mellow with him during this time. I am trying to gently touch that leg as much as possible - and today he even let me pick it up to look at it! I did it really quickly and praised him lots, but he didn't seem to mind. We will always take precautions, and we will let our vet staff know of this episode and the need to be calm & cautious always. I think his vaccination & nail appointment in 2 weeks will be a really good test.

 

What are your opinions on us being with him while they are doing these vaccinations, blood draw & nail clipping? We have the option of having it done in the exam room with us, or they can take him to the back room. I wonder if he'd be better without us there, but on the other hand, having us there if he has a relatively decent experience might be good? What do you all think?

[PatricksMom]

What are your opinions on us being with him while they are doing these vaccinations, blood draw & nail clipping? We have the option of having it done in the exam room with us, or they can take him to the back room. I wonder if he'd be better without us there, but on the other hand, having us there if he has a relatively decent experience might be good? What do you all think?

It so depends, a lot of the time they're much better behaved for someone other than mom and dad, but a really fearful dog I'd probably try with you in the room first and leave if that's not working.

[racindog]

I think love conquers all Seriously, he is lucky to have you for a mom. And he does sound sooo wonderful. I can just picture him...a super loveable goofball. Anyway IMO you two will get through together whatever you run into. If it was me I would definitely stay with him-it will be a learning experience for both of you. And he will feel much better with you there! You can talk to him and observe how the techs hold him etc. I think he is a smart guy that is capable of progressing much quicker than you think but you have to learn too. Its A LOT more to handling a dog than most people think. And some of the best dogs may be the hardest to handle. I love his situational awareness but you need to remember that as you handle him. As long as you keep love first you will progress and he will continue to teach you. You 2 might have fun going into the therapy dog thing. Anyway of course I can't wait to hear how he does at his appointment. Try to teach him to associate the visit with positive things. I would have a ready supply of favorite treats and every time he offers the behavior you like tell him 'yes' and reward him. Did he walk in calm? yes/reward Is he waiting patiently? yes/reward Did he allow a stranger to handle him in any way? yes/reward Did he stand nice for his shot? yes/reward As he is getting his nails trimmed start small. Did he allow them to pick up his leg? yes/reward Did he allow 1 foot to be done? yes/reward etc. If he offers behavior that you don't want DO NOT PUNISH. Just IGNORE it and it will eventually be extinguished. He will have to come out of there thinking -hey this wasn't too bad...I never got so many great treats before so fast-pretty cool. So then how would you expect him to act the next time? You got it. He'll remember. And of course as he gets better and better you move into a variable reward system and of course he doesn't get so many but you always keep it a positive experience. And yes, I would probably cut back a little on his regular food so he was hungry enough to enjoy his treat windfall. Just get him to associate it with a positive experience and you're home free. And this may sound a little corny but it helps to talk in a squeaky voice too. Be happy/act happy/he will feed off of your feelings. It will go right down the leash. Don't be stressed or fearful-that goes right down the leash too. He will do good-think that! and he will! Give him a kiss for me

[Guest xengab]

I think having the vet show you how to safely (for both) restrain him would be good. For you and for him. Us as humans being fearful, just feeds their fear too.. so my trainer told us. Makes sense but hard to do in some situations.

 

My take, maybe that foot has been one to be injured in the past? My grey always seems to get cuts on one foot more then any of the others. So maybe yours has too and just remembers the pain from it so any big or little cut has him guarding the wound. And as someone who gets foot blisters too often, I also wonder if lifting the foot up could be causing the cut to sting or twinge. I know holding my feet in different positions can cause pain.

 

We back off any time ours growls, I'd much rather he know we will react to that then having to resort to biting. In any situation have two people, one watching his body language and the other doing what needs to be done but have a safe word so you both can back off if he's not wishing to be messed with.

I admit, mine has growled and snapped at me in pain. He'd had a biopsy done on a toe growth, we had to remove the vet wrap. But it was so tender for him, he growled and I didn't back off quickly so he snapped in the air at me. I know he could have nailed me hard if he wanted too and would have if I didnt respect his wishes. You only have a second to really respond too. But I learned from that. Which is all they ask of us really..they adapt to our homes so much as it is..

[Sundrop]

Good news today - we had to take the pups to the vet (we adopted a new sister last Saturday). Finn needed some vaccinations, blood drawn for heart worm check, have his nails clipped and he'd been limping around for a few days - but would give us a low growl each time we tried to check his foot. DH finally was able to take a quick peek two days ago, whilst distributing copious amounts of treats, and saw some blood. We had the vet check his foot, too.

 

We warned the vet and told her about the episode, so they were very calm and gentle with him, talking to him the whole time they worked on him. We asked that he get taken to the back room, as we were not sure if we were the triggers. They said he did great! Vaccinations and blood draw were fine. Pedicure was fine. He apparently had a "little freak-out" when they first picked up his foot to examine it - but they just carried on a little slower and more gently and were able to really take a good look. Turns out, he'd ripped the pad on his foot partly away from his skin AND had an infection. Poor guy!

 

Vet did say he was very nervous, in general, much more so than our past greyhounds. So, we'll work to keep him very calm, talk or sing to him and try to work with him. I was just SO relieved that he didn't go crazy-town on the vet today!

[EllenEveBaz]

Encouraging news! (except for the infection -- hope that clears up ASAP)

 

And tell us about your new girl!

[3greytjoys]

Glad that Finn had a successful vet visit. Sorry about his infected wound.

Congratulations on your newly adopted hound.

 

Yes to your last question. Forcefully handling a dog who is reacting that way is likely to increase aggression and damage your bond with your dog, as well as make it potentially more difficult to do things he tolerates now. You can use counter-conditioning and desensitization to get him more comfortable with handling, but the reality is he may need light sedation for certain things, especially when pain is involved.

Keep in mind too as you discuss with your vet how he reacts to procedures there that a muzzle is appropriate as a precaution for safety, but it shouldn't be used to put your dog in a situation you wouldn't otherwise put him into.

ETA: The muzzle with PB is worth trying at the vet - if things like nail clipping or blood draws are only mildly worrisome for him, but if it's something that's really going to agitate him, he's not going to eat. You're probably better off bringing something even higher value and just feeding it to him directly. I suggest meatballs.

Agree with NeylasMom.

 

My heart hound arrived with an extremely low tolerance for handling. I immediately began long-term counter-conditioning and desensitization. After earning his trust, he became more tolerant of having his paws handled, particularly after receiving gentle paw wipes after potty outings. (Paws were wiped with a towel. No chemicals / no baby wipes since pets absorb chemicals through pads/skin and ingest them from licking paws.) His initial rewards were treats + verbal praise, but quickly evolved into praise + his favorite reward of simply going back inside after outings.

 

Muzzled, standing nail trims were tolerated as one person dispensed non-stop special treats through muzzle holes.

I wore a head lamp to illuminate his nails for extra careful trimming. Head lamp was only turned on when pointed toward floor or his paws, not toward dog's face. (Dremel didn't work in his case, but works great for all our other hounds.)

 

Later, when he reached his teens, he was more accepting when standing on a flat surface while I carefully slipped the (scissor style) nail clippers around the tip of each nail to cut. His paws never left the ground with that method, but I only clipped a few nails at a time to ensure his comfort / tolerance.

 

BTW, smeared peanut butter in a muzzle cup works for some hounds, but not all. Peanut butter in our boy's muzzle backfired so badly that whenever he smelled a peanut butter jar being opened, he flew to the opposite side of the house.

 

The most important aspect of handling him was for him to feel like he had personal control in situations, and didn't feel trapped or forced into something. He was like a horse who was willing to participate and tolerate things if treated with respect, encouraged freely or gently guided.

Brief example: He tried to bite a vet tech who physically pushed his body while trying to move him onto a scale.

Instead, I took the leash, gently guided him in a circle and he happily stepped on the scale without hesitation.

His vet required him to be under anesthesia for medical tests or procedures.

 

Clotisol (liquid blood clotting formula) has been a lifesaver for our hounds, and is always stocked on our shelf. Depending on the location of the wound, it can be squirted on a dog without physical restraint. Helps stop bleeding well enough to have time to get to a veterinary hospital.

 

Our heart boy was a wonderful Greyhound. He just required a little extra creative care when being handled for medical reasons.

[3greytjoys]

We find it helpful to calmly capture a few photos of wounds that a hound isn't comfortable allowing close examination at home.

View and zoom in on photos on a large computer screen to inspect much more clearly.

We photograph dry paw pads, and then wet paw pads for best viewing results.

Photos may be forwarded to your vet, and are helpful to evaluate healing progress.