Pleading For Experienced Advice Asap!

[Guest Amis_Ma]

Hi guys, this is my first post but I've been lurking around the last few weeks. I adopted my first grey, first dog ever, 2 mts ago and she was transitioning in to pet life with some issues, to be expected, but with everyday improvements. She is 4yrs old, gentle soul, kind of lazy, and very loving and loveable.

 

Serious issue: she got a hold of a bone one day on a walk and when I tried to get her to drop it she became very aggressive. She barked, growled, snapped, and would've bitten be if I hadn't backed off.

 

I contacted the adoption agency and they had a difficult time believing be until....we met for a consult and when they attempted to take a crown knuckle from her she came extremely close to biting the trainer! I could see the fear in the trainer's eyes.

 

The trainer than tried removing the knuckle with a fake arm/hand and Ami bit the hand with out hesitation.

 

I'm scared of her now but know how gentle she truly is as long as long as nobody takes anything out of her mouth. The adoption agency said they'd work with me to try to correct or at least minimize this behavior, which they said is possible.

 

I cried all last night because of the possibility of having to rehome her to an experienced family who can better manage her. We have no children and will not be having any which makes the situation somewhat more manageable.

 

I want a grey that I can train and love and not manage and fear.

 

This is me pleading for honest advice and support.

 

Thank You

D. & Ami

 

 

[dante2zoe]

You will get lots of more experienced responders here, but you need to learn how to trade up. You tried to take something away from her that she covets more than anything else. You try to come in and take one of my kids, for example, and I while I am not an aggressive person, I would take you out in a second. Same kind of mindset.

 

It will be ok. Relax. Now, others will give you specific instructions how to do this. This is not a greyhound only trait, either, btw.

 

Oh, and welcome!

[Batmom]

Whereabouts are you located?

 

First thing I'd do is fire that trainer -- he or she is an idiot. And maybe fire your adoption group as advisors, for the same reason. This is a very common behavior in dogs.

 

Second thing I'd do is, temporarily, use a kennel (basket) muzzle on walks until you feel confident about scanning for stuff the dog can grab and/or until you can teach a reliable "drop it!" command.

 

You can find a lot of descriptions of teaching "drop it!" or "trading up" if you do a search in this forum. What we do, in brief, is:

 

1. Find something like an old washcloth that the dog won't want. Fill your pockets with very special treats that you don't use for anything else.

2. Offer the washcloth to the dog. If she won't take it, set it down between her front paws.

3. Bright, cheerful, "Drop it!", take the washcloth back, "Good girl!" and hand her a delicious treat.

4. GIVE THE WASHCLOTH BACK.

5. Repeat 1-4 several times in a row, several times a day. Always leave the washcloth with the dog.

 

After you've done the above @ 10-12 times, swap out the washcloth for an object that the dog might be mildly interested in -- say, an old toy. Then an object that the dog is somewhat interested in. And so on. If at any point you observe the dog starting to get tense about giving up the object, go back to the previous, less-desirable object and practice some more for a few days before moving on. Your goal is that as soon as you say "drop it!" the dog lets go of the object and looks at you with delight and great expectations -- this is a really fun game, and the dog always wins.

[Guest Amis_Ma]

Whereabouts are you located?

 

First thing I'd do is fire that trainer -- he or she is an idiot. And maybe fire your adoption group as advisors, for the same reason. This is a very common behavior in dogs.

 

Why do you say to fire the trainer/adoption agency?

 

You have no idea how much I appreciate the support; the trainer from the adoption agency did provide us with all of the necessary information/training on how to teach her to "drop it" which we will work diligently at.

 

Ps- I'm in Canada

[Batmom]

Because the adoption agency didn't believe you, and because the trainer evidently didn't either, set the dog up for failure, and didn't know how to proceed without reinforcing the undesirable behavior.

 

 

 

This is a very common dog behavior. It isn't something weird that needs to be tested, especially with an object that any dog is likely to defend.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Batmom

[Guest Amis_Ma]

Aww ok; thanks Batmom! In their defense they are supporting us, and working with us to deal with the issue. I appreciate your input

[Batmom]

I'm glad they are supporting you! I just think that their and the recommended trainer's knowledge of dog behavior seems to be wanting. Hoping that you and your pup can work through things to your satisfaction and safety.

[a_daerr]

First thing I'd do is fire that trainer -- he or she is an idiot. And maybe fire your adoption group as advisors, for the same reason. This is a very common behavior in dogs.

 

Agree 100%, trainer is an idiot. Why, if they KNEW she was guarding the bone, would they still attempt to take it with a fake hand???? As Batmom said, totally setting the dog up for failure. This is a behavior that is EASILY correctable. Please don't think they gave you an aggressive dog. The behavior stems from the fact that she has never had such a high value treat before. She is not trying to be the alpha or act dominant- she simply doesn't want her bone to be taken away. It's very common with track greyhounds and dogs in general. The first thing you need to do is work on convincing her that your hand gives and brings good things. Start by routinely dropping high value treats in her bowl while she's eating. Trading up, exactly as Batmom outlined, is another tried and true method. Eventually she'll come to learn that a human hand = good things.

 

If the behavior continues, contact a different trainer or behaviorist (i.e. one with half a brain who knows how to handle resource guarding).

[Guest june]

Whereabouts are you located?

 

First thing I'd do is fire that trainer -- he or she is an idiot. And maybe fire your adoption group as advisors, for the same reason. This is a very common behavior in dogs.

 

Second thing I'd do is, temporarily, use a kennel (basket) muzzle on walks until you feel confident about scanning for stuff the dog can grab and/or until you can teach a reliable "drop it!" command.

 

You can find a lot of descriptions of teaching "drop it!" or "trading up" if you do a search in this forum. What we do, in brief, is:

 

1. Find something like an old washcloth that the dog won't want. Fill your pockets with very special treats that you don't use for anything else.

2. Offer the washcloth to the dog. If she won't take it, set it down between her front paws.

3. Bright, cheerful, "Drop it!", take the washcloth back, "Good girl!" and hand her a delicious treat.

4. GIVE THE WASHCLOTH BACK.

5. Repeat 1-4 several times in a row, several times a day. Always leave the washcloth with the dog.

 

After you've done the above @ 10-12 times, swap out the washcloth for an object that the dog might be mildly interested in -- say, an old toy. Then an object that the dog is somewhat interested in. And so on. If at any point you observe the dog starting to get tense about giving up the object, go back to the previous, less-desirable object and practice some more for a few days before moving on. Your goal is that as soon as you say "drop it!" the dog lets go of the object and looks at you with delight and great expectations -- this is a really fun game, and the dog always wins.

This really does work if you do it and give it time. It also will strengthen the bond between you and your dog! You can do this. Be patient and realize your dog is not vicious, but just protecting what she feels is hers. Practice and patience are your friends

[Guest IrskasMom]

What Batmom said

[Guest KennelMom]

Whereabouts are you located?

 

First thing I'd do is fire that trainer -- he or she is an idiot. And maybe fire your adoption group as advisors, for the same reason. This is a very common behavior in dogs.

 

Second thing I'd do is, temporarily, use a kennel (basket) muzzle on walks until you feel confident about scanning for stuff the dog can grab and/or until you can teach a reliable "drop it!" command.

 

You can find a lot of descriptions of teaching "drop it!" or "trading up" if you do a search in this forum. What we do, in brief, is:

 

1. Find something like an old washcloth that the dog won't want. Fill your pockets with very special treats that you don't use for anything else.

2. Offer the washcloth to the dog. If she won't take it, set it down between her front paws.

3. Bright, cheerful, "Drop it!", take the washcloth back, "Good girl!" and hand her a delicious treat.

4. GIVE THE WASHCLOTH BACK.

5. Repeat 1-4 several times in a row, several times a day. Always leave the washcloth with the dog.

 

After you've done the above @ 10-12 times, swap out the washcloth for an object that the dog might be mildly interested in -- say, an old toy. Then an object that the dog is somewhat interested in. And so on. If at any point you observe the dog starting to get tense about giving up the object, go back to the previous, less-desirable object and practice some more for a few days before moving on. Your goal is that as soon as you say "drop it!" the dog lets go of the object and looks at you with delight and great expectations -- this is a really fun game, and the dog always wins.

wise words

[cleptogrey]

all of the instructors that i have worked with have taught, "trade up"- trade up for a really high valued treat. be it raw meat, hot dogs, dehydrated liver, what ever. but something that they NEVER get unless they are training. i've never tried the washcloth method, but even if one just does a trade up but it needs to be a good size treat to start with and something super special, it's the standard in teaching drop-it. a command that can save a dog's life! in all of my years of taking classes- since the mid 1970s i've never observed a trainer just trying to take something from a dog's mouth.

 

check out the akc web site and apdta- america pet dog trainer's association- or local kennel clubs- listed thru the akc if you are in the states. they will have resources. interview the trainer first and ask about their drop-it methods. if it's not similar to batmom's recommendation, move on to the next name of the list.

[racindog]

 

Agree 100%, trainer is an idiot. Why, if they KNEW she was guarding the bone, would they still attempt to take it with a fake hand???? As Batmom said, totally setting the dog up for failure. This is a behavior that is EASILY correctable. Please don't think they gave you an aggressive dog. The behavior stems from the fact that she has never had such a high value treat before. She is not trying to be the alpha or act dominant- she simply doesn't want her bone to be taken away. It's very common with track greyhounds and dogs in general. The first thing you need to do is work on convincing her that your hand gives and brings good things. Start by routinely dropping high value treats in her bowl while she's eating. Trading up, exactly as Batmom outlined, is another tried and true method. Eventually she'll come to learn that a human hand = good things.

 

If the behavior continues, contact a different trainer or behaviorist (i.e. one with half a brain who knows how to handle resource guarding).

This. There is nothing the wrong with your dog. She IS loving and sweet. She is simply acting like a DOG-imagine that. I would not even call the clown with a fake arm a "trainer". Batmom and a_daerr are correct. This is no biggie-please don't get upset and doubt your sweet girl. Use your muzzle as you need to on walks etc. Relationships take time. Never set your girl up for failure like the stupid fake arm person did. Always set her up for success-like by using your muzzle as needed- and you and she will be richly rewarded.

[Brandiandwe]

Hang in there. You'll get there. I think the drop it and leave it commands are as important as come and stay commands.. It's not only because of situations like this but also because you will at some stage want to retrieve the TV remote, your best shirt, most treasured childhood toy, medicine or otherwise toxic yummies from your hound.

[cometdust1]

VERY common issue with any dog who has never had to share their high value items with anyone before.My boy did the same thing when I first started giving him raw bones to chew on. The trading up training really does work over time. Take it slow, and make sure you are calm, relaxed and cheerful while you are doing these exercises so that your hound thinks it's no big deal. You will work through this and be able to trust your hound again.Don't be afraid,just understand your girl's point of view and work to change it,

[MerlinsMum]

What Batmom said! Also agree with the assessment on the trainer. SERIOUSLY?? What a joke.

 

I want to stress that this is 100% normal behavior for a dog who is still in new surroundings, still unsure as to what is expected of her, still finding her feet and getting to know you and trust you. 100% normal. It DOES get better, with patience, time and positive reinforcement training. Those three are essential. I have been where you are. With Merlin, I started training right away and did the trade-up games all the time, and he stopped exhibiting resource guarding over his food and high-value treats very quickly. With Sagan, it was another story. Sagan is very loving, cuddly and submissive, but high-strung and insecure. It took us a few months to train the resource guarding out of him at meal times (and the snatching), and a while longer with very high-value treats. He is SOOOO good now. Seriously, it sounds as though your girl really lucked out with you, since you don't have the worry of kids around while you're training her (although I should stress that even that is manageable - just requires a little more diligence). We don't have kids either so it was just a question of keeping the training consistent. ALWAYS SET HER UP FOR SUCCESS. I can't emphasize this enough. The point of positive reinforcement training is to improve communication between the two of you - and strengthening/reinforcing your bond in the process - while teaching a dog what you expect from her. As much as possible, therefore, this type of training seeks to prevent the "bad' behavior from occurring altogether by creating situations and an environment in which the dog is far more likely to offer the desired behavior instead. Essentially you set the dog up to do the "right" thing, and then use praise or treats as a reinforcer (rather than old-fashioned methods which focus on punishment and "correction", which imo mostly just confuse the heck out of a dog.) This way everybody wins, and because you've made it easier for the dog to understand what you want from her, your chances of her "getting it" and offering "good" behaviors are far higher. And the really wonderful thing about it is that it will really strengthen your bond. Patience and time are key as well. It simply took time for Sagan to start trusting me, which is totally understandable.

 

Good luck, and please keep us posted on her and your progress! I know it can seem intimidating and scary at first (hey, those teeth are huge!) I was a bit scared of Sagan too initially (who is a big 85lb male with the sharpest frigging fangs on the planet, I can tell you! ) but it's important to remain calm while training, keep it consistent and predictable, and praise her enthusiastically when she offers the behavior you are demanding of her. You can do it! And please come back here for help anytime.

Edited August 1, 2013 by MerlinsMum

[XTRAWLD]

If you found a prize on your walk, would you let it go? Your grey really didn't do much wrong other than trying to protect what was now hers. The problem lies with lack of training, and that's solely based on not having her long enough to work with her, or even get to know her.

 

Deep breath, relax, this is something that can be handled with your grey.

[Roo]

Until you can teach a reliable "drop it" or "leave it", be prepared with high value goodies. If you're in the house and she gets something she doesn't want to get rid of, try a spoonful of peanut butter (or a dollop of peanut butter on a plate) - show it to her (but don't get really close to whatever goody she's going to want to protect), let her get a taste (because peanut butter is irresistable), then back away a bit to encourage her to follow you and leave whatever she has that you don't want her to have. When she leaves whatever it is, praise her, let her finish the peanut butter, and then go pick up the thing she was gnawing on. It's not a replacement for actual training, but it's good in a pinch. And if you have to grab something out from under her (if she won't let you take it from her mouth) when you trade up, try to use high value treats that she needs to chew - anything she can just swallow will give her plenty of time to try to grab what she had back from you. I had a high-prey drive girl who would absolutely not let me take a toy away from her. The only way to get it was for me to offer her a spoonful of peanut butter and then take the toy while she was eating. It wasn't optimal, of course, but she didn't play often enough that actual "drop it" training was essential. She wasn't interested in stuff on the side of the road or no-no objects in the house, either. I could also distract her by running through the room, clicking the latch on her leash, and going "Let's go for a walk!" She got really excited and followed me I also had a boy who grabbed a mouthful of insulation off the street. Luckily he quickly realized it wasn't tasty and let me poke around in his mouth to get all of it out

 

Also, like others have said, take a breath and relax "Managing" this kind of behavior really isn't that difficult. Realistically, you shouldn't need to pull things out of your dog's mouth all that often (once you get used to walking her and watching for those tempting things on the road). And digging around a dog's food bowl for no reason while they're eating is just impolite (though definitely drop high value treats in while she's eating for a while so that she gets used to your hands offering good things, just in case you ever need to poke around in there for some reason!) If you can train "drop it" and "leave it" until she reliably drops and leaves things, the only real "managing" you'll need to do with her is a bit of upkeep on the commands - reinforce their meanings and practice a little every day to keep the commands sharp. I agree with the basket muzzle suggestion - that way you won't have to worry about what to do if she grabs something while you're outside with her before you can cement "drop it" and "leave it".

Edited August 1, 2013 by Roo

[DaisyDoodle]

One thing to add. You are going to get stares and questions if you walk her wearing a muzzle. Have an answer prepared--she is wearing a muzzle because she eats things she shouldn't. End of story. Never publicly portray your dog as dangerous (which she isn't, BTW). Pardon the pun, but it could come back to bite you later if you do.

[RedHead]

I'm not going to add onto the advice given, but just wanted to reiterate that this doesn't mean your dog is vicious. Especially if this is the only thing she shows aggression with. Remember, most "normal" dogs would have had resource training as a puppy, or if not, would have at least lived in a house with people around food, bones, toys, etc. A greyhound has NEVER had this, they have always eaten in a crate all by themselves. Teague used to growl a bit with high value items, he would never do it now and drops anything on command. This is usually something that can be trained (fairly easily) with time and the right technique. Don't get discouraged and try not to be nervous or she will pick up on it!

[Guest Amis_Ma]

Wow you guys! I feel so much better after reading all of your wonderful and supportive responses I'm breathing again and my heart beginning to mend back together; I'm sure Ami would also be gasping with excitement if she got wind of this! I love her so much! I am more dedicated now than I was since I brought her home; I will teach her to "drop-it" and "leave-it" everyday until it becomes a piece of cake...no lets make that a piece of beef jerky. Last night I took away all of her toys and possessions and will use these as things she can earn back with politeness and respect for boundaries. I'm going to follow the Leadership program and do my best to resolve any of her insecurities as a result of my not so strict leadership skills (I did do my best). We will work together and I will take in to account all of your suggestions...I have to learn somewhere so why not learn from the seasoned professionals!

 

Ami and I are going to a friend's cottage for the night; I wasn't looking forward to this but now I can't wait to get home from work and load her in the car!

 

Ami says Thank you Thank you Thank you and not to be too harsh on the trainer

 

We will keep in touch and update you on our progress; looking forward to being a part of this Grey loving family!

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

Relax. You've got a wonderful, sweet dog who did nothing wrong. Mine did pretty much the same thing when I'd had her about as long as you've had your girl. Except that my dog actually had her teeth on my arm. She didn't bite, she just grabbed my arm as if to say "stop now, or I'll have to stop you", didn't break skin or even leave impressions. My dog didn't want to bite me, and yours doesn't want to bite you. They're dogs though, and they speak a different language.

 

I worked on trading up with Jayne. I wasn't perfect, I got snapped at several times, but she never put her teeth on me again. Now, though, I can take anything from her, or call her away from it, and her only reaction is happy anticipation of praise or another treat.

 

The others have given you great advice. I just wanted you to know that you have nothing to fear from your dog. With time and training you will move past this, and your relationship will be stronger for it.

 

ETA, you posted while I was composing. The tone of your post is much more relaxed and hopeful! I'm glad of it. You'll do well, I'm sure.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Wasserbuffel

[JohnF]

>>> I will teach her to "drop-it" and "leave-it" everyday until it becomes a piece of cake...>>>.

Yes, you've got plenty of sensible advice on how to handle extreme resource guarding and prevention is best. Just imagine that it is a snake or bad spider you don't want her to pick up on a walk... something that could hurt her.

 

And FWIW my Peggy is also bone-possessive so I don't give bones. Anything else I can take from her mouth, but a bone I'd still distract and trade up for.

 

It is standard procedure to test for this with a fake hand at adoption centres, only it should have been done before you got to know the dog. Even then they can get it wrong... they said Peggy was small animal friendly. She is with small dogs, but outdoor cats, squirells, bunnies no way!

 

 

[Guest Scouts_mom]

Just to give you some perspective: Last week at a play date, one of the greys (Sandy) found a rib bone. This is a dog that had been in his home for 2 years with no problems. His owner tried to grab the bone and we learned that sweet Sandy can growl and snap. He is really a Lab in disguise, so when his owner offered a tennis ball, Sandy dropped the bone and went after the ball. We immediately grabbed the bone and got it out of there.

 

So resource guarding can happen with any dog if the item is special enough to the dog.

[silverfish]

Wise words from Batmom!

 

I have little to add to what everyone else has said. I just want to tell you that we adopted a greyhound with resource-guarding issues who would growl at me if I so much as went near him while he was eating. I'm pretty sure he'd have snapped at me in those early days if I'd tried to touch his dinner bowl, but fortunately, he was our fourth greyhound so I had some experience to draw on.

 

Jack learned quickly that dinner was never removed while he was eating, that treats came often and that the only one he had to protect them from was our other dog, Renie. Once he calmed down a bit we began trading up. It took barely three weeks for him to learn that lesson, and to allow me to take whatever I wanted direct from his mouth, on the understanding that something even better would be coming his way PDQ. Eventually, I was able to drag half a decomposing rabbit out of his mouth in return for a small cube of cheese. In fact, he brought me the rabbit and offered the exchange all by himself!

 

Be careful of your fingers and children's faces while your girl is learning. Batmom's excellent suggestion to pop a muzzle on her for walks is worth considering. Give her time to learn, and no chance to fail, and she will probably be fine!