When To Say "enough Is Enough?" (Aggression)

[Guest colander_girl]

I apologize for the length of this post, but it is a long story. In March 2008, my DH and I adopted our first retired greyhound, who was 2.5 years old at the time. We picked him because he was soooo happy to see us when he was brought into the adoption agency's office that he smacked his tail into the walls and started bleeding all over the place. We took him home (with his happy tail all bandaged up) and began our adventure. We also adopted a sweet and playful girl 6 months later, directly from the racetrack.

 

Before I get to the bad stuff, let me tell you what we love about our boy. He is always at the door happy to see us when we get home. He loves booty-rubs. He loves belly rubs. He loves treats and due to his great food motivation, he was easy to train. He is very obedient, and will lay down on the rug and "stay" while we prepare his food, and won't get up until we say "okay." He always is happy to greet our friends and family (and the exterminator, and the pizza delivery guy, and the plumber), well anybody really…maybe a little too enthusiastically, but he never puts his paws on anybody (he is a really big boy and could easily knock a person down). He sleeps all night long and keeps a very regular schedule. He has never attempted to get on the couch or our bed (we don't allow that, but he's never even tried). He loves walks and car rides, even to the vet. He always reminds me when it's dinnertime (and then I tell him how much time he has to wait because he usually thinks it's dinnertime and hour or more before it really is). Anyway, 99.9% of the time he's an absolute angel, and a perfect model greyhound.

 

The other 0.1% of the time it's like he is possessed by demons. Since we first brought him home he's shown aggression in certain situations, which we attributed to space aggression or annoyance (he snapped at my DH in the adoption office when he came too close to him when he was laying in the bed, went for our vet's head when she was examining him the week we brought him home, he snapped at my uncle when he came too near his crate, bit our 5 year old nephew on the ear when he was telling him to "lay down", snapped at our niece when she was trying to pet him lying down, the list goes on). We always warn guests to leave the dogs (especially him) alone, and we keep a very close eye on visiting young children. So you are probably thinking, no big deal--that is a totally normal reaction for a greyhound. The problem is he gives no warning signs, no growling, no getting up and away from the situation, no warning bark -- he skips all that and goes straight for blood.

 

The first really scary episode was when I was putting a coat on him to go outside when it was cold. Everything was fine, then suddenly he lunged for my face and hit me with his nose so hard on my cheekbone that he broke the skin and drew blood. So I attributed it to being my fault, he must not have wanted to wear the coat. (It's not like it was a new experience that I was throwing him into).

 

Two and a half years ago the first really serious attack happened. I had just given the dogs their Frontline and he went into the bedroom, laid on his bed and roached. I found him and told him to "roll over" so that the Frontline wouldn't soak into the bed. So he did, and I said "good puppy" and reached down to pet him and he suddenly bit my hand. I said "NO" and he got up and lunged for me, biting me in three more places (my armpit, my chest, my abdomen). He doesn't just snap, he lunges at you lightning-fast, snarling like a demon and bites down HARD and shakes his head like he's trying to kill prey. After that, we took him to the vet. He had bloodwork done, and the vet attributed his aggression to low thyroid levels. So he got on L-Thyroxine and we went on with life. Again--99.9% of the time he has no issues with space--that was only when we first adopted him. He can (usually) be pet laying down, while eating, even while chewing a rawhide. Not that we generally do those things, but every once in a while we do to keep him accustomed to it. We always leave them alone when sleeping, but he was wide awake in this instance and obeying a command.

 

He has also attacked our girl greyhound, at least once. We didn't witness what happened but heard his demonic snarl and her screaming. They usually get along just fine. Once I came home to find a 4X3" chunk of skin hanging from her side like a big flap--we don't know what happened but our boy is still a suspect. That incident required about 10 stitches.

 

He went through a really good year or so after getting on medication (apart from lunging after my grandfather when he was teasing him by pulling his feet--understandable, but still without warning). Then this past March, my DH gave him a hug in the morning (which he normally doesn't do, but it was dark and he thought it was our other dog). When he turned on the light and saw who it was, he said "good boy" and pet him, and our dog suddenly turned and attacked him, grabbed him by the throat, then grabbed his abdomen and shook. His belly is seriously scarred. We then took our dog back to the vet, found his medication needed to be slightly increased, so we put him on the next higher dosage. Just an aside--he gets lots of physical affection, I hug him all the time and he acts happy about it, he usually is on his best behavior before breakfast time so I don't have any idea why he flipped out other than maybe morning grumpiness. But again -- there was no warning.

 

Which brings us to the present day (well, this past week). A couple of weeks ago I diagnosed our dogs with having corns. They have both been limping for months, the vet couldn't find anything (we even had x-rays done). Oddly enough, our boy tolerates having his feet handled much better than our girl, who fidgets, pulls away and gets up and leave (which seems like pretty appropriate behavior). I decided to go back to doing their nails myself so I could get them shortened gradually, and treating their corns. I ordered a Dremel, which is what the vet assistants use on them, but I set about getting them acclimated to it anyway in case they may associate bad things with it. Our boy has always been an angel when he gets his nails done at the vet's office, but I don't trust him anyway (obviously) so I went slowly. He was perfect, I ended up Dremelling all of his nails three separate times last week with him laying down on the rug (Dremel on low, just to get him used to it more than to make a big dent in his nail length). He just laid there, and got a treat after I was finished with each paw. I gave him lots of praise, everything was all wonderful and I was really happy with him. Then I got some callus cream to rub into the pads of their feet. Again, he was a perfect angel and just lay there while I carefully rubbed in the cream. Which brings us to Saturday. I intended to give him the callus cream again, but first I wanted to feel his pads with my fingers like I'd been doing to get him used to the touch. I didn't get very far, before I knew it his teeth were heading toward my face and I turned, put my arms over my face and he went for the back of my head three times but couldn't get a grip so he grabbed me by the shoulder and shook until my DH yelled "NO!", threw a shoe at him and chased him out of the room. I don't know why he flipped out that time and not the very first time I messed with his feet -- the only difference was that my DH was home. And I didn't make him aware of the presence of treats, though they were there on the coffee table. Anyway, I have a very sore shoulder with lots of scabbed-over teeth marks, but my shirt offered some protection from his teeth going too deep so there wasn't too much blood. But I am having trouble writing this one off on his thyroid condition.

 

Which brings us to our dilemma. What to do? We absolutely cannot trust him, he is dangerous and unpredictable. We love him, but we cannot live with him, and I don't know if there is anybody out there who *would* want a dog like him. We see our options as A) Return him to the greyhound adoption agency (if they even will take him--he'd have to be very very very carefully rehomed to the right person, with plenty of warnings), or option B: Put him down. My DH will be calling our adoption agency when they open tomorrow to see what they recommend, but I wanted to get the opinion of other greyhound owners. I don't want option B, but I have to accept it as a possibility. I know there will be people who do not agree with putting down a mostly-wonderful dog, but how long do we go on being mauled and putting our friends and family at risk? I know there have been dogs who have been put down after the very first attack, and he's had 3 serious ones and countless minor ones.

 

My question is: Is there anybody who would take a dog like this? Would any adoption agency in their right mind take him back? He can be sooo good most of the time, but when he's bad he's a seriously dangerous liability.

 

What we are doing in the meantime: My DH called the vet this morning, who recommended more bloodwork. So I'll be bringing him in tomorrow.

 

P.S. I anticipate replies asking how we discipline him after these attacks. First we banish him from the pack for at least 3 days. He doesn't eat in the house, he doesn't sleep in the bedroom ("den") with us. We don't speak to him. We don't look at him. We give him no attention whatsoever. He is the invisible dog. When we accept him back in, he is always on his very best behavior. Our general routine is the "Nothing in Life is Free" approach--the dogs have to lay down and stay while food is being prepared, until they are released to eat. They have to wait at the door while I open it, and cannot go outside until I say "okay." We usually fail at the "no petting on demand" though. It's hard when a cute dog lays their head on your lap and looks at you with sad eyes. In general though, they are both well-trained, and they are not spoiled brats.

Edited July 2, 2012 by colander_girl

[RaineysMom]

wow you both have really put up with a LOT more than I suspect 99% of other dog owners would

 

I'm no behaivoral expert but it sounds like you are doing everything you should be doing but it's just not working. He absolutely should not be that aggressive and the times he's been are not at all called for.

 

I don't really have any advice -- but our Remy (German shorthaired pointer) was very much like your boy. He attacked our Schipperke numerous times (always unprovoked) and in the 6 years we had him, his agression escalated to very serious attacks on our friends, family and us as well. We tried everything (NILIF, behaivorist, every medical check we could) but nothing helped. We ended up putting him down in January of 2005, and to this day I still will never forgive myself for killling a (seemingly) perfectly healthy dog. We did not have a choice, he was a stray so there was no adoption group to give him back to and we knew if we took him to a shelter he'd be put down most likely as well.

 

the ONE thing with him, though, was that before his attacks, he would suddenly get all "glassy eyed" and you could tell he was NOT there -- it was like a kind of seizure, I guess, but without the movements. He would attack and then in mere seconds be 100% fine and back to our happy, loving boy. It was like a switch flipping on and off.

 

several months after we let him go, I found something on the Internet about "Rage Epilepsy" -- and I believe that is exactly what was going on with him. It can be controlled with meds (like other forms of epilepsy) and had I know about it before we would have definitely tried it. I just wish I had found it out before he was PTS.

 

does your boy act like that at all before he attacks?

 

wishing you all the best with this situation -- I really, really feel for you

[Burpdog]

Send him back to the adoption group. Assuming they have the tools to work with him, or make the painful decision to let him go.

[Wonder]

Which brings us to our dilemma. What to do?

 

I skimmed so sorry if you addressed this but I wouldn't leave him alone ever with your other hound.

Diamond has space aggression and I deal with it by leaving him alone in my bedroom with the door shut when I'm not home. He's also crated at night in my room.

 

Muzzle him

 

I'm sure others will have advice but that's what I would do ASAP until you can figure out what is going on.

[TheFullHouse]

My first thought was seizures, not your typical form though. Kim suggested "rage epilepsy", it is definitely a possibility. My other thought was some sort of brain lesion or tumor. If you are willing you might take him for a good neurological exam, it could be something controlled by medication. If you choose to go that way, I would keep him muzzled until you find out if there is anything medically wrong with him that can be corrected. If you've just had your fill and trust me I wouldn't blame you if you said you had, then I would contact the group where you got him from and talk to them about returning him. This is a horrible situation for you all and I wish you the best of luck.

Edited July 2, 2012 by JillysFullHouse

[revamp]

Contact your adoption group. If they won't take him on as a responsibility, it is my personal opinion (and I've stated it frequently) that there are too many well-behaved and well-adjusted dogs dying in shelters to allow an dangerously unpredictable and vicious dog to injure people and further damage the reputation of dogs and dog-owners.

 

In my view, after all reasonable attempts have been made to medically treat and professionally train the dog and they have not benefited in a trustworthy, or at a minimum predictable dog, then the humane thing to do is to euthanize. Attempting to rehome a dog that doesn't merely snap or nip, but violently and repeatedly attacks, is just asking for some kid to be permanently mutilated, or the poor dog to live out the rest of his life in a cage.

[JAJ2010]

I'm so sorry your dealing with this... I would probably contact the adoption group and let them assist me in making a decision. They could possibly have someone who would love to try and work with this dog, or they may be able to validate another hard decision for you. I'm not sure this dog is safe to have in your home.

[MaryJane]

It could be some type of seizure activity that is caused by what he perceives to be a "stressful" situation. I might suggest that you contact a neurologist and see what they say. It could that he needs to be on seizure medicine.

 

I would also contact the adoption group and let them know that you are in the process of examining any possible medical causes but, that there is a likely chance that you might need to return him. If your adoption group does not want to deal with him, try some others that are close by and see what they say.

 

There are adopters out there that do deal with aggressive dogs - my new boy (failed at fostering) is one that was returned from a home for growling & biting - so the homes are out there.

[JohnF]

I'm very sorry to hear you have all these problems; surely, over the last 5 years, no-one could possibly have given him more last chances than your family have. The thing is though, you're too close to the coping strategies and have come to see them as routine; it is completely unacceptable to keep a hair-trigger dog like that in a family home especially one that has deliberately gone for a human's throat.

You have to put your realist's hat on and understand that not every dog gets to make it all the way to old age either thru physiological or thru mental illness.

You could make it your local Greyhound group's poblem to rehome him, but I can't see a situation in which he would actually be safe. My instinct would tell me that the PTS option is the right one; though I might waver and go for more wearing of muzzles - but what when he won't let you put the muzzle on.

We had a prize bull on our farm, the best bull ever as far as I was concerned and worth $$$$$$. He broke a farm worker's leg and immdeiately he changed from being a prize bull to being beef on the hoof for the butcher that same day. I think you have to look at it like that, you did what you could and he didn't get to make it.

[NeylasMom]

If you are willing and able, you have a third option, which is to do an in home consultation with a veterinary behaviorist. The consult in and of itself will be pricey, and you can expect to need to run additional medical tests at his/her request so its not an inexpensive option. It's what my group would do if you returned this dog to us. It might, if nothing else, help you reach a decision, whatever it might be. I'm sorry you're faced with this tough situation.

[greysandmollie]

I am so sorry that you are having this problem....I have never seen or dealt with that type of unpredictable behavior. I can not imagine having a dog attack without any type of provocation. I hope your adoption group can assist you and help you make the best decision for everyone.

[Guest colander_girl]

Thank you so much for all of the supportive replies!

 

We have never heard of rage epilepsy, but looked it up and yes, it does sound like him. I never really noticed his eyes though so I can't say for sure about that, but all of the other symptoms are there. It's like a switch is flipped and he is a vicious beast, then after a few bites he's back to his normal self. However he never seeks us out and attacks us, it always happens with interaction. If everyone always left him alone and completely ignored him, he'd never hurt anyone. But that's not possible, and he doesn't always want to be left alone. He's starving for attention already.

 

Our friends and co-workers were shocked that we didn't put him down after the very first incident. It's hard when they are like your children, and are great and well-behaved pets with the exception of maybe 15 total seconds out of an entire year.

 

I will post back with an update.

[MaryJane]

I forgot to add to my previous post - put a muzzle on the dog and keep it on all the time unless he is eating. Until you get this sorted out there is no reason to have any more incidents ....

[Batmom]

Note that you CANNOT LEAVE A MUZZLED DOG WITH AN UNMUZZLED DOG. If he is muzzled, you MUST muzzle your other dog.

 

That said, I'd return him to the group.

 

If I didn't already have two, I'd take a dog like him in a heartbeat.

[Guest colander_girl]

I will absolutely muzzle him tomorrow when we go to the vet, but I can't leave him in a muzzle in the house -- he rubs it on anything and everything trying to get it off. I'm off work for the summer and am home during the day with both dogs, and our girl pretty much ignores him all the time anyway. And he's banished to the living room by himself at night for the time being.

[NeylasMom]

Just one thing to consider - he can't associate a "punishment" you're giving him now with something that happened days or even hours ago and keeping him isolated *could* actually increase his stress and make another incident more likely. You might consider an x-pen or crate (if he likes them) in the bedroom for him to sleep in, or just keep him muzzled overnight. He'll get over the muzzle eventually if you keep it on all of the time. Just wrap the part that sits on the bridge of his nose with a few layers of moleskin so it doesn't rub him and cause a sore.

[Guest happygrey]

Note that you CANNOT LEAVE A MUZZLED DOG WITH AN UNMUZZLED DOG. If he is muzzled, you MUST muzzle your other dog.

 

That said, I'd return him to the group.

 

If I didn't already have two, I'd take a dog like him in a heartbeat.

 

Just wanted to say that some groups actually have a short list of adopters who sort of "specialize" in problem sorts of dogs. It's worth asking your group about.

 

Just one thing to consider - he can't associate a "punishment" you're giving him now with something that happened days or even hours ago and keeping him isolated *could* actually increase his stress and make another incident more likely. You might consider an x-pen or crate (if he likes them) in the bedroom for him to sleep in, or just keep him muzzled overnight. He'll get over the muzzle eventually if you keep it on all of the time. Just wrap the part that sits on the bridge of his nose with a few layers of moleskin so it doesn't rub him and cause a sore.

 

I thought the very same when I read about him being banished from the bedroom, shunned etc. I seriously doubt he's making the connection there. It's probably only making the problem worse. JMHO.

 

Best of luck. This sounds like a very tough situation.

 

ETA: I've heard of these sorts of incidents sometimes being caused by a brain tumor. Has this been considered by your vet? It may be worth ruling out.

Edited July 2, 2012 by happygrey

[Guest colander_girl]

The "banning from the pack" punishment was recommended to us when he first began showing extreme aggression. We only ever do it immediately after a serious attack. I believe it was because after he first attacked me one of the possible motives at the time was that he was trying to be dominant (happened in the "den" at his bed). The suggested punishment was to remove him from the pack (while still feeding him, letting him outside, being humane...) to show him he was not the boss. He's not physically isolated (he's lying on the rug in front of me at the moment)--except at night.

 

We'll talk to the vet about other possibilities this week.

Edited July 2, 2012 by colander_girl

[NeylasMom]

Those dominance theories are outdated. Not to say I'd be showering love on my dog immediately after he attacked me. It's completely normal to think you might not want to pay attention to him immediately following the event, just pointing out that the longer term seclusion might not help and could hinder. Just something to think about and/or discuss with a certified behaviorist or veterinary behaviorist if you decide to keep him and don't find an underlying medical condition.

 

Am hoping you can find something treatable as it's clear you're very committed to your pup.

[Batmom]

Those dominance theories are outdated. Not to say I'd be showering love on my dog immediately after he attacked me. It's completely normal to think you might not want to pay attention to him immediately following the event, just pointing out that the longer term seclusion might not help and could hinder. Just something to think about and/or discuss with a certified behaviorist or veterinary behaviorist if you decide to keep him and don't find an underlying medical condition.

 

Wise words. Dog would have no idea why he was being shunned (or given a "time out" or similar) and doesn't connect it with his moment of aggression.

 

I would not do anything to this dog while he was lying down, unless he had a muzzle on and some good treats being slipped through the muzzle holes.

[Guest colander_girl]

We'll end his banishment, but he definitely won't be getting much attention from me. I'm not in a very forgiving mood just yet. Maybe when my shoulder feels okay enough to sleep on my right side again.

 

It is easy for us to go back to being complacent with him when he's being good. We used to muzzle him all the time to trim his nails. When we started taking him to the vet for nail grinding, he'd be muzzled. But we stopped after he'd been good for so long, and only had glowing reports from the vet assistants. If I ever get the courage to attend to his feet again, he'll be muzzled and restrained.

[maggiespet]

I'm so sorry you all are going through this. You have certainly put a lot of time and effort into trying to help him.

[Hubcitypam]

I think in the best interest of all he should be returned. You have certainly gone above and beyond in trying to work with him but your home just doesn't seem to be the environment he needs. Looking back some of the episodes involved:

 

"...too close while he was lying in bed"

"...trying to pet him lying down"

"...pulling on his feet".

 

Over and over adults as well as children don't seem to be taking appropriate caution in dealing with a dog prone to agression. That may make him more prone to lash out at other times. As far as his nails I've had more than one dog that would cause trouble with me but never made a peep at the vet or groomer and was told that is not uncommon.

 

Yes, I think there is probably a home out there for him.

[JJNg]

Wow, I'm impressed with how long you've persevered with your boy, given the level of his aggressive responses. I had an Italian greyhound who behaved very similarly, and almost everything you wrote could have described my boy Casey - from being normal 99.9% of the time, to the sudden, unexpected aggressive outbursts, to the 'attacks' consisting of multiple lunges and bites. Having lived with a 16-lb dog who acted like this and experienced how scary the attacks are, I'm not sure I could have done it with a large dog like a greyhound.

 

I think it's one thing for a family who has already bonded with a dog with serious aggression issues to choose to keep working with him, and a different matter to try to find someone to take on such a responsibility and liability. I honestly feel that most adoption/rescue groups who take back a dog with such a history of severe aggression would most likely end up euthanizing the dog rather than take the risk of rehoming. The exception would be if there is a trusted group member or volunteer who is experienced with problems like this and is willing to keep the dog themselves. So I hate to say it, but unless your adoption group has an extremely experienced foster home who can work with him, your home may be the best chance he has at this point.

 

A dog who has shown this level of aggression will likely never be 'cured' and can never be completely trusted. No matter how carefully the dog is managed, there will also be the potential risk that something will trigger the aggression in the future.

 

I chose to keep my reactive boy, accepting the fact that the occasional attacks direct toward me were unavoidable, no matter how careful I was. I could prevent attacks to other people by keeping him away from them. I had to be very selective about where I took him (isolated trails, outskirts of parks, etc) and I rarely had visitors to my home. I had him for almost 13 years, the entire time a learning process. For the last few years, I considered it good when I only accidentally triggered him to attack me once or twice a year.

 

I can almost guarantee that thyroid problems are not the sole cause of his behavior. There may be some other underlying medical cause, and part may also be genetics and his innate temperament. His aggression is also not associated with dominance, and treating it as such will only make it worse.

 

With my boy, I know that his behavior was initially fear based, and later came to have a strong learned component. Early on when he first started showing signs of aggression, I followed the advice of trainers and vets who told me it was dominance, and I'm convinced these methods contributed to escalating the aggression. I did usually ignore him for a period (usually 30-60 min) after an aggressive incident, not to banish him from the pack, but to allow both of us to calm down and to give me a chance to have a good cry and get over the unavoidable anger and sadness.

 

So I'd suggest having a long heart-to-heart talk with your adoption group about what the realistic options are for your boy. Have you kept in touch with them regarding all the issues he's had? If you've decided that you cannot continue to live with him, would you feel comfortable sending him back to the group if they may end up putting him down? Or would you get more closure by making that decision yourself? Will the group allow you to be part of that decision process, and would you even want to be involved? IMO, there are no right or wrong answers in a situation like this. You have to do what you feel is best, and what you can live with.

 

A few thoughts regarding some of his behavior...

 

You mentioned that he gives no warning signs. Are you familiar with calming signals? The early warning signs that most dogs give of being stressed and uncomfortable are very subtle, and not recognized by most people. After years of having these subtle signs ignored, some dogs stop using them. Here's a good article that give an overview of calming signals.

 

After years of living with my reactive boy, I finally realized there was a pattern to his aggression when I started keeping a log of his aggressive episodes on a calendar. He was much more likely to have an aggressive response to a normal interaction if he was stressed. This stress could have been caused by some totally unrelated, outside factor, such as my parents visiting, or a trip to the park where he came across strange dogs that upset him. For the following few days, he'd be more likely to be triggered to attack me by something that he'd be completely fine with most other days, such as reaching toward him, or petting him.

 

While it may certainly be worthwhile pursuing a consult with a neurologist or vet behaviorists, I'm not sure if his behavior fits with something like "rage epilepsy" since they all seem triggered by specific interactions.

 

Best wishes in your decision. You've already given this dog more than most people ever would have, and I don't think you need to feel guilty if you decide to let him go, whether that's returning him to the group or making the decision to euthanize. If you do decide to continue working with him, I'm sure you'll get lots of support here, and you're also welcome to contact me privately at jjng13 @ juno.com (remove spaces).

[vjgrey]

I'm typing this on my mobile, so I won't write the novel I could, but my short answer is that, for me, there was no point of "enough is enough." I adopted an aggression bounce who attacked me in my sleep, bit other hounds (once causing three layers of stitches at the evet), and occasionally had Old Yeller style snarling fits. The light switch described above totally fits him. After each incident, he was a completely different hound, and our vet suspected temporal lobe epilepsy.

 

So we learned how to manage him, and when we did have slip ups (like the evet incident) we considered it OUR failure, not his. It wasn't his fault his brain was wired differently.

 

Otherwise, he was an AMAZING dog, and I loved (and still love) the bejesus out of him. We lost him to Osteosarcoma four months ago.