Desperate - Please Help

[Guest mbpiedra]

Where do I begin, my Grey poos and pees in the house whenever he is left alone. It didn't used to be this way. I can put him out before we leave, and he will go to the bathroom, and he will still go in the house if you leave him alone, even for an hour. He will poop on the carpet, and he will eat it, and then smear it into the carpet. I have tried to use a stool guard, but that just means he tries to eat it, an smears it into the carpet worse, and gets it on his muzzle, and then it gets wiped everywhere he goes. I have tried to kennel him, but he will injure himself trying to escape, and actually got out of a Vari kennel with bloodied pads. I have tried to block him in a room, and he tore up the door and did amjor damage to my house. I used a playpen to enclose him, and he actually bent the metal getting out and tore up the drywall in the process. I can't stay with him 24x7 and I can't leave him. He is 8 years old and I have had him for 6 years. He has gotten worse as he has gotten older.

[TheFullHouse]

Wow, this is a new one on me. I've heard of dogs having separation anxiety when they are new to a home but after 6 years? Have you had him to the vet for a check up lately, to make sure there is nothing physical causing this? I have no experience with separation anxiety but there are a lot of people on this board that do and they will chime in soon I'm sure.

[Guest mbpiedra]

Wow, this is a new one on me. I've heard of dogs having separation anxiety when they are new to a home but after 6 years? Have you had him to the vet for a check up lately, to make sure there is nothing physical causing this? I have no experience with separation anxiety but there are a lot of people on this board that do and they will chime in soon I'm sure.

He just had his annual checkup and the vet told me he is very healthy. No arthritis, no heart murmor, perfect bloodwork. I talked to the vet and his only solution was medication. It may come to medication, or the dog, or my marriage.

Edited July 29, 2010 by mbpiedra

[Guest fandogs]

If this is SA, it sounds very extreme. If this is not SA. then he might need a neurological exam... head injury? brain damage?

There is something definitely going on. Has he had any blood work-ups? Eating poop when he has never done that before...suggests you might need to add some supplement/vitamin/mineral to his diet. Sometimes the brain will tell the body that it's missing something it needs... that might explain a change in eating behavior.

We had a few dogs on our farm that used to do that. When they finally went for adoption, they stopped. (maybe home cooked meals was the answer).

Hope someone on here can help.. except for my thoughts, I just don't know.

[Batmom]

Has he had a urinalysis and fecal exam? How is his weight? What does he eat, how much, and when? How much exercise?

[Guest mbpiedra]

If this is SA, it sounds very extreme. If this is not SA. then he might need a neurological exam... head injury? brain damage?

There is something definitely going on. Has he had any blood work-ups? Eating poop when he has never done that before...suggests you might need to add some supplement/vitamin/mineral to his diet. Sometimes the brain will tell the body that it's missing something it needs... that might explain a change in eating behavior.

We had a few dogs on our farm that used to do that. When they finally went for adoption, they stopped. (maybe home cooked meals was the answer).

Hope someone on here can help.. except for my thoughts, I just don't know.

He is fine when anyone is home with him. He has perfect recall off leash, comes when called, sits, etc.. He doesn't eat his poop from the yard, only when left home alone

 

Has he had a urinalysis and fecal exam? How is his weight? What does he eat, how much, and when? How much exercise?

His weight hasn't fluctuated much, he eats Eagle Pack Holistic Lamb and Rice, 3 cups twice a day. And always finishes. Very firm stool, he has a large yard and gets put out several times a day. In fact we will put him out, let him in when he is done going, go to the grocery store for an hour, and he will have gone in the house while we are out, even if he just went outside. I try to walk him nightly but don't always get to.

[Batmom]

Do you know about how much he weighs, vs. what his racing weight was, or his racing name? .... Could be as he's gotten older, his metabolism has changed. 6 cups of food a day is a huge amount unless he's very active. I *think* EPH L&R is relatively low in calories so he may not be getting too many calories but he'll be getting a LOT of fiber with that.

[Batmom]

P.S. If what you're feeding is the EPH Radiant Adult Health Lamb ... my most active 70-lb. dog would eat *maybe* 4 cups a day, no more. Unless your boy is a hard keeper (needs a lot of food to maintain) or very large-framed, could be he's having to poop a lot because he's getting too much food. FWIW, the guidelines on the food bags are often a crock -- I don't know where they get those.

[Guest mbpiedra]

Do you know about how much he weighs, vs. what his racing weight was, or his racing name? .... Could be as he's gotten older, his metabolism has changed. 6 cups of food a day is a huge amount unless he's very active. I *think* EPH L&R is relatively low in calories so he may not be getting too many calories but he'll be getting a LOT of fiber with that.

He raced at 74 lbs and he weighs almost exactly that now. If I feed him less he gets ravenous. The food is quite good and he has a very low stool volume. I have tried other foods and this is the only one he stays firm on.

[Batmom]

If he's going in the house and outside, he must be going many times a day, tho? FWIW, mine are ravenous no matter how much I feed them -- well, short of the whole bag .

[ivon]

It does sound like severe SA to me, and to start with at least I would consider the medication route, your vet can prescribe something. Then, back to basic alone training, leave for a minute, come back, repeat, when he is ok with that, go for a few minutes, etc, be gone longer times, you may have to increase the time you are gone very slowly. Also, the first ten minutes that you are home, ignore him, no talk, no touch, no eye contact, the same goes for the last minutes before you leave the house. I would also make sure he gets a good long walk before you leave for the day, sometimes just going out in the yard does not empty a dog, but walking gets things moving, it will also tire him out. If at all possible I would get a behaviorist involved, to see if this really is SA, and if yes, to help you with the alone training.

[GeorgeofNE]

Do you know about how much he weighs, vs. what his racing weight was, or his racing name? .... Could be as he's gotten older, his metabolism has changed. 6 cups of food a day is a huge amount unless he's very active. I *think* EPH L&R is relatively low in calories so he may not be getting too many calories but he'll be getting a LOT of fiber with that.

 

I was going to say the same thing. That's a huge amount of food! My dog eats a different brand, but he gets 1 cup twice a day (and a 45 minute brisk walk every single day). He's on the smaller side, and every dog is different, but six cups of food a day for a housepet is a lot.

 

And "putting him out" in the yard is not exercise no matter how large the yard is. Greyhounds that live as single pets rarely run around alone.

 

I'd get this dog's stool to the vet ASAP. Something is wrong. A dog doesn't just get horrible SA after being in a home for that long unless something has drastically changed.

 

Good luck. I know how hard this must be for you!

[LaFlaca]

I wonder if there have been any changes in the home, either physical or emotional? Or if something may have frightened him while you were out? Might this have provoked SA?

[greysmom]

Do you know about how much he weighs, vs. what his racing weight was, or his racing name? .... Could be as he's gotten older, his metabolism has changed. 6 cups of food a day is a huge amount unless he's very active. I *think* EPH L&R is relatively low in calories so he may not be getting too many calories but he'll be getting a LOT of fiber with that.

He raced at 74 lbs and he weighs almost exactly that now. If I feed him less he gets ravenous. The food is quite good and he has a very low stool volume. I have tried other foods and this is the only one he stays firm on.

 

 

Obviously he *doesn't* have a low stool volume if he still has enough left to go in the house that much.

 

First step - up the exercise and decrease his food a bit. Mine would eat 24/7 if I didn't monitor them. He doesn't sound overweight, but it still could be too much for your dog. He should have a nice tummy tuck up and you should be able to see his last three ribs. You're going to need to really try and walk him or play him tired in the morning before you leave. A tired dog is a happy dog. Think about leaving him with a stuffed, frozen Kong or other treat toys to occupy him (reduce his regular food intake accordingly). Try using baby gates instead of closed doors - many greys don't like being shut in with solid doors - into an area that has been dog-proofed and is easy to clean like a tile floor kitchen.

 

Second - really look at your home situation and try to see if something has changed to cause him to suddenly begin having anxiety. Have you added or subtracted from your household? Do you have noisy new neighbors? Is there contruction going on near your home? Has your schedule changed recently? Did he have a fall or minor tumble when playing or out in the yard? Has he begun any other new behaviors around the same time?

 

Third - take him back to the vet and have the vet run specific, thorough testing for thyroid values (free T-4 is what you need, not the quicky test that's usually done). Low thyroid can set off new anxious behavior. Take a look at the "Greyhound Health and Wellness" site at Ohio State University for info on thyroid in greyhounds.

 

Fourth - don't discount the value of prescriptions in cases like sudden onset anxiety. Not every dog or dog parent will need them, but they can be a valuable tool in helping you get your house back in control. Talk to your vet about the options of clomicalm and other anti-anxiety drugs if you need extra help for your guy.

 

Good luck.

[jetcitywoman]

Since he's an older dog and has been with you for a long time and this is new behavior, I'm also thinking extreme anxiety rather than dietary deficiencies. As someone else asked, has anything changed in your home or yard? Is it possible that neighbor kids are banging on the windows or doors when you're not home? Is there construction in the neighborhood? Can you set up a webcam or baby monitor to see what's going on when you're not there?

[silverfish]

First I would plug in a DAP unit (Comfort Zone in the US I think), can't hurt, might do wonders.

 

Next, get a thyroid panel. In my opinion, a healthy dog of that weight shouldn't suddenly be 'ravenous' eating five cups of kibble a day (unless your cups are waaay smaller than ours!). Sid weighs about 32kg (just over 70lb) and eats 3 cups of food plus some wet 'mix in' for palatability, and he gets two walks a day, one of thirty to forty minutes - which is more exercise than it sounds, since he's a tripod. Between his meals I can leave dry kibble down and he'll eat only if he's hungry. Much of the time it sits there till I take it up and add some wet into it for his next meal. But systemic disease which affects their metabolism, like hyperthyroidism, can make them desperately hungry. Now most greyhounds tend towards hypothyroidism, not hyperthyroidism, but that doesn't mean 'hyper' can't happen.

 

Then I'd be thinking about what has changed for him. Building works, new dog in the neighbourhood whining all day, anything like that? And don't dismiss health issues simply because a standard vet check didn't pick up anything. Hearing or sight deterioration can affect some dogs not at all, yet make others crazy. Also, is he on any medication for anything? Flea treatments? Supplements? Anything at all apart from the kibble? Drugs like prednisolone can make them crazy and hungry, just for example.

 

It sounds to me as if he is absolutely frantic when you leave him, and if he didn't used to be, there is something wrong. This is not naughtiness, this is major distress for him if he's breaking crates open.

 

Also -

In fact we will put him out, let him in when he is done going, go to the grocery store for an hour, and he will have gone in the house while we are out, even if he just went outside. I try to walk him nightly but don't always get to.

 

If he's just pooped before you go, and yet he goes again while you're out, he's producing a lot of poop and he needs to go. Dogs cannot conjure poop up from nowhere, especially with a firm stool. Maybe the others are right, and the Eagle Pack is just providing him with too much fibre. But it's almost certainly not the entire story.

[Guest mbpiedra]

First, I estimated and have since measured his food. He gets 2 cups in the mornign and 2 in the evening, not 3 and 3. Second, nothing has changed, and we have a huge yard and a huge house. Nobody from the neighborhood is bothering him or banging on anything that he would even notice. He is alone all day as he prefers to sleep upstairs. He knows when we are home, downstairs and has no issues. He knows when we leave and has issues. Leaving him alone for a few minutes and going through that training isn't going to fix anything. He doesn't whine, doesn't complain, hasn't changed his routine, and seems generally very happy. He has never been crated and I only tried it out of frustration, and after one time never did it again. I was simply letting you know what I have tried. He is healthy as a horse and happy as can be, as long as you don't leave him. And I have used a web cam. At some point, he calmly walks into the living room and goes on the floor, and then calmly goes back to his bed.

 

Also, he can go multiple times and still have a low stool volume. It is a small amount when he goes. Maybe he is too firm and goes a small amount outside but then nerves make him loosen up and that is when he goes in the house.

[Batmom]

Ah, 2 cups twice a day makes more sense . What did he do on your webcam before calmly walking over to poop and then going back to bed? If he's calm, that suggests something besides separation anxiety. I might re-do his fecal, try upping the exercise (and thus squeezing another poop or two out) before you leave, and (much as you would hate to risk unfirm poop) consider trying a different food. 8 isn't really old but I will note that when our whippet grew elderly, he did better on lower residue food -- foods with a lot of fiber irritated his system in some way and he would have to go out many times.

[GeorgeofNE]

When you viewed him on the web cam, did he squat to poop, or did it just fall out?

 

Fecal incontinence does happen! I know, because my parents have a dog who has that issue. She's a lot older than your dog, but...

 

My dog has a spinal condition, and the vet told me one of the things that may happen as he gets worse is fecal incontinence, so I put that out there for your consideration.

[rschultz]

we had an older dog once that had a neurological problem and would just poop. he couldnt help it. Hopefully your vet can find more answers. I would try walking him more and the anxiety meds sound like a good plan too.. good luck keep us informed.

[Xan]

I can hear how close to the end of your rope you're getting with this.

 

I'd like to second the D.A.P. suggestion but maybe use a collar, so it's with him whatever room he's in. That might help if the problem is actually anxiety.

 

I also agree that the food might not be working for him, for whatever reason (too high in fiber, just too much volume, change in formula that you don't know about, a growing intolerance to certain ingredients ...).

 

It's also good advice to have your vet check the stool, and maybe look into neurological issues.

 

I'd also like to add my vote to getting more exercise. If your dog likes to chase or play with toys, you might be able to squeeze in a lot of exercise into a short amount of time by using a lure pole. You can make one pretty cheaply with plastic plumbing pipe (from any hardware or Lowe's or Home Depot like store), a bit of rope, and a toy. Only one of mine will play with it, but he's the one that needs it! Maybe your guy would like that. You could put in about 5 or maybe 10 minutes (seriously, that's all!) before you go out, and he'll be happy and flapped out.

 

It feels like you're pretty set on the idea that training can't work. I understand your reluctance to add to what sounds like a tight schedule already, but it doesn't cost anything, and it might save your dog, your sanity, or your marriage (and certainly your rugs!) Trying the crate once is just that. Crate training is more involved, but is more likely to succeed. Same with alone-training.

 

It's important for him not to keep repeating this unwanted behavior. It just gets easier and more familiar, and harder to turn around, as time goes on. ANYthing you can do to manage it while you work out what's wrong and what to do about it, whether that means having someone stay with him when you go to work, or take him with you, or take him to a friend's or family member's house, or even to a doggy day-care, it will be worth it in the long run!

 

I wish you the best of luck with this awful situation.

[Guest lynne893]

I am doing a search on "poop guard" and this thread came up.

 

Did anyone else suspect the poor guy is having seizures, pooping involuntarily, eating the poop because he's so ravenous after the seizure?

[seeh2o]

Do you walk him in the morning and will he poop on walks? Because I don't have a doggy door at home, that's the only way I can get Carl to poop before I go to work, otherwise he will poop in the house. Do you have a doggy door? Can someone let him out during the day while you are at work or can you come home to give him a poop break? To keep him from eating it, you could get some of that stuff at the pet store that makes the poop taste bad.

[grey14me]

I'm not a fan of crating, but wanted to let you know there is a big difference between a vari-kennel and a regular crate. A regular crate might work, although after this many years of being un-crated I kind of doubt it.

Has he never been like this before or has he always been like this and it's just getting worse as he gets older? It would just seem to me that a sudden onset might come about because of some change. Either in his routine or the stress level in the house or something that frightened him when you were gone. Just because you don't think there is anything going on in the neighborhood doesn't mean there isn't...I mean, you weren't actually there. I remember someone on here finding out that neighbor kids were tormenting her dogs through the sliding glass door when she wasn't home. Things can happen. They can also hear better than we can. Could it be a change in weather...thunderstorms maybe?

I'm a little confused about the calmly pooping and going back to bed after the earlier post of eating his poop and smearing it all over the carpet. Like someone else mentioned, if he was calm on the camera than it probably isn't separation anxiety. Has he always been fed that food?

Can it be stress? How does your husband react when he has an accident? I'm just thinking that perhaps the first time really was just an accident and if he became scared because of a reaction from one of you it could have triggered some anxiety.

I'm not trying to blame anyone...just trying to throw out as many ideas as possible.

[Tallgreydogmom]

Where are you located? Maybe someone is in your area and can kinda "tag team" with you on trying different solutions.