Appropriate Signal To The Dog?

[Guest fenix916]

Hi we've had our guy for almost 2 months. I've found that a sudden loud clap is a great way to get his attention and to get him to stop doing something. E.g. if he's getting too interested in the dirty dishes in the dishwasher (while we're loading it, we don't leave it open) or if he's making a run on a cup of coffee on the coffee table or if he steels a shoe--I just clap once. This kinda startles the dog, but he clearly gets the message--he stops trying to get into whatever and moves away or goes and lies down. I always praise him when as he walks off/lies down. I don't say anything when I clap, though usually I follow it up with "go to place" or "go lie down." I'm also never angry when I do this--I expect a dog to want to lick dirty dishes or food that's out, truthfully I think it's funny and cute, but I want to consistently discourage this behavior.

 

Anyway, my wife feels bad because he looks so startled when I clap--I think she's babying the dog. I like the clapping because it works instantly and the dog has seemed to intuitively "get it" since day one. I don't do it often...maybe once or twice a day. I'm also finding he's less likely to try to get into stuff after a couple clappings. I also like that I don't have to verbally correct the dog--I'm a big, tall guy with a deep, loud voice

 

Has anyone else done this? He's settling in really well. He's gone from giving me a half roach (hind legs still on the floor) to the full roach with greater and greater frequency. And he's minding me better and better with basic commends.

[Gryffenne]

Oh this is going to be fun trying to describe, please bear with me

 

I think, as long as it isn't the cupped hand POP clap (with the right room acoustics -like an echoing bathroom- that can hurt MY ears, so I imagine it might hurt theirs) it's fine. DH makes a clap sound sometimes, although he has started to pick up my vocal stop command (explained below). I've been sitting here clapping different ways trying to describe it. Sammi is looking at me like I am nuts

 

I am more verbal in correction than my DH is. My voice, while low for a female, is quieter than his (normally... years in theatre and then over a decade as a craps dealer... I can project ... loudly... without screaming, if I need to). My go-to correction to stop-them-in-their-tracks for dogs, cats, ferrets, kids, drunk gamblers, etc... is a fast, sharply punctuated noise. I am not even sure I can spell this. Sounds kinda like: Et tet teh (Again, repeating this to try and spell it, Sammi is giving me The Look ) It stops most pets and kids in their tracks and makes them look at me. From there, I give further instruction depending on the situation.

[Guest fenix916]

ha thanks. I hadn't given any thought to my clapping style. He doesn't listen to my verbal commends when he's into something UNTIL I clap or until I really start to raise my voice. When I raise my voice, he responds, but then he looks at me and looks kinda scared. The clap, though it startles him, he seems to associate less with me and more with some omniscient force telling him to knock something off. So I guess after I accused my wife of being soft, I'm kinda soft because I like the clap because he doesn't seem to associate it as much with me. I clap and he looks all around like "whoa hey, what the hell was that?" And in that moment he seems primed to take a command because he's been distracted from whatever it is he's trying to get into.

[Gryffenne]

As long as he doesn't look like it hurts his ears, i think you're fine. It's like the beta version of clicker training. You make the noise, he stops and looks at you.

 

 

When I raise my voice, he responds, but then he looks at me and looks kinda scared

A few years ago, when i was relocating, I lived with my best friend. She had always had more... hard headed breeds. At the time, she had a husky that was 1 yr old. I warned her and her daughter that you cannot raise your voice to Sammi in the same manner because "it will scare the crap out of her". Fast forward a week or so, her DD, 11, walks into the kitchen to do dishes and catches Sammi sneaking into the garbage can. She has something in her hand that was about to go into the sink, so she raised her hands up and yelled SAMMI BAD GIRL GET OUT OF THE TRASH! NOooOOOOO! (I take off running in there, as she is running out past me) Apparently, in the small kitchen, with her arms up and yelling,while running towards Sammi, she.. well.. really did scare Sammi as bad as I had warned.

 

I am comforting Sammi as I hear, "Mom I am so sorry, I didn't know Colleen was being literal! I thought it was just an expression!" Now I am while trying to comfort Sammi and let her know it's okay, to not do that again. Later on after they both calmed, she fed Sammi a treat & made up with her, then I explained exactly why, in that instance, she appeared so threatening. We also moved the garbage can.

[Gryffenne]

I forgot to mention.... you probably do want a recognizable verbal command for times when you can't clap, for example, with a leash? (Yes I am still clapping around the house) I don't know how much you are pulling your hands apart, but you don't want to risk yanking the leash with your wrist motion. If that makes sense?

 

Sammi knows, "Leave it!" and "Drop it!" and those are used more on walks than anywhere else.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Gryffenne

[krissy]

These dogs are generally VERY soft. I use almost exclusively positive reinforcement. Any sort of punishment I try to set up so it is not associated with me... like setting traps on counters to stop counter surfing. I do not want it associated with me and affecting our relationship. And even so, you want to choose the lowest level of correction needed to achieve the desired response, followed by positive reinforcement of the correct behaviour.

 

To explain just how soft these dogs are... I took Kili to a different trainer from our normal ones because no one else offered show handling. This trainer does use some heavier corrections, however she never used anything but positive methods with Kili. Still, I stopped taking Kili there because she would get really nervous there. Any time the trainer corrected another dog (who was harder headed and couldn't have cared less) MY dog cowered and put her ears back and didn't want to perform. Just to give you an idea of how soft they can be.

[greysmom]

I think it's fine, as long as the sound isn't loud enough to hurt. Though training a "Leave it! or "Drop it!" command might be more useful, and something your wife can use as well.

 

I have a lot of verbal, non-recognizable word cues that are not easily explained. More often is a loud "EH!" or "AH!" sort of sound. But I also use a "Tstsch tsch tsch" sound and "Ssshh."

 

One of the things you *don't* want to do is use the word "no" all the time. Then they get used to hearing it and it doesn't work in an emergency.

[scullysmum]

I think it's fine, as long as the sound isn't loud enough to hurt. Though training a "Leave it! or "Drop it!" command might be more useful, and something your wife can use as well.

 

I have a lot of verbal, non-recognizable word cues that are not easily explained. More often is a loud "EH!" or "AH!" sort of sound. But I also use a "Tstsch tsch tsch" sound and "Ssshh."

 

One of the things you *don't* want to do is use the word "no" all the time. Then they get used to hearing it and it doesn't work in an emergency.

I use the "AH" sound usually, I think it's better to have a verbal correction as you may find one day that your hands are full just when you need to clap. As you say it just needs to be enough to get their attention then you can redirect behaviour

[Guest iconsmum]

why dont you just teach "off" and then just use "ben, off". Any trainer will teach you in two twos. Clapping is sort of amateurish and likely more aversive than you need. Your normal tone of voice is all you need since you're already telling the dog it's him you're speaking to.

[greytpups]

I have to agree...I'm not convinced scaring a dog is a good training method. Could you make an effort to just saying something short and quick like "uh" or something that won't startle him (you mentioned you have a deep voice which is why I'm suggesting something simple) and then praise and/or treat when he responds with the desired behaviour?

[NeylasMom]

I'm also finding he's less likely to try to get into stuff after a couple clappings. I also like that I don't have to verbally correct the dog--I'm a big, tall guy with a deep, loud voice

Ah, here's the rub. If the behavior is decreasing in response to your clapping then your clapping is a punishment to your dog. Punishment is, by definition, s anything that causes a decrease in the behavior that the thing you've done is contingent upon. If you hadn't included this statement I might have just said, eh, it's not the best way to train but it's also probably not doing much harm, but your dog is telling you that he finds your clapping aversive. If you don't want to "correct" (a euphemism for punishment if we're being honest ) your dog using a verbal punishment, then you might want to rethink the clapping as well. In other words, in this case, your wife is on the right track. Thankfully in this case science is on my side so no one can argue it's just female solidarity.

 

Having said that - what's the best option? You teach a cue like "leave it", starting with something not all that tempting but interesting to the dog and rewarding with higher value food when he responds, and then raising your criteria (ie. asking him to leave more enticing things) very gradually as you go until he has a reliable response to the cue. There are lots of ways to benignly teach a cue like that - your best option is probably finding a good trainer who uses reward-based training methods and enroll in a beginner class.

 

Until your dog knows the cue, here's what's key: manage your dog's environment. Food (or drinks) don't get left out in the open where your dog can get to them when you're not supervising. Either take them with you, or take the dog with you (or crate him, x-pen him, pass him off to the wife, etc.). If while under your supervision he does ignore something that's out that you know would normally entice him, reward him and BE GENEROUS.

 

By the way, with puppies the main way that they learn is through interrupt - redirect. In theory you manage the environment so that they don't ever have the chance to do anything we deem "bad" behavior, but people mess up so when the puppy does, you interrupt with some sort of noise and then redirect to something appropriate and reward for that. So it's not that you have a really off idea here, it's just that in your case, with your dog, the clapping is aversive. And if you continue to punish your dog, there's a good chance he will associate that punishment with you and you, by association will then also be seen as aversive (something to avoid or get away from) in your dog's eyes.

 

ETA: I just realized that you also mentioned stealing shoes. If he's stealing inappropriate items, especially if he's chewing them, he may not be getting enough outlets for his energy. More exercise (including chances to stretch his legs by running) may be in order, as well as more outlets for mouth energy - stuffed kongs, food puzzles, feeding his kibble in a grass feeder or something else to slow him down and make him "hunt", etc. If he just doesn't get what's appropriate to play with and what isn't, when he picks up a shoe, then you just need to teach a "give" or "trade" cue (again, a beginner class will teach you how to do this most successfully) and then when does it, tell him to "give" and then reward him with an appropriate item that he finds valuable (a stuffed squeaky toy, a chew toy, etc.). Also, put your shoes away. And your dirty clothes.

Edited June 8, 2014 by NeylasMom

[sobesmom]

I think a clap is a fine attention-getter. I do it - I also finger-snap, or say "hey" or "yo". Something to get their attention. Then redirect. Just stopping is not enough, you then have to re-direct.

 

After you've had them a long time a simple throat-clear "uh-uh" noise can work. Diana - I'm just going to look at his trashcan. Me "throat-clear". Diana - wanders off .... "what? nothing to see here."

[Guest BlingDogs]

I used a technique similar and never had a negative reaction from Dory. Whenever she would rummage around in the recycling or something, I would just shout a quick "-hey!" and she would back away, and then I would say "that's a good Dory". I think it is totally fine as long as they know what you want them to do, too.

Edited June 8, 2014 by BlingDogs

[krissn333]

I think it's fine, as long as the sound isn't loud enough to hurt. Though training a "Leave it! or "Drop it!" command might be more useful, and something your wife can use as well.

 

I have a lot of verbal, non-recognizable word cues that are not easily explained. More often is a loud "EH!" or "AH!" sort of sound. But I also use a "Tstsch tsch tsch" sound and "Ssshh."

 

One of the things you *don't* want to do is use the word "no" all the time. Then they get used to hearing it and it doesn't work in an emergency.

I like to use a small noise too - think of the buzzer noise from the game "Taboo"...that is the noise I make...sort of a "EH!" noise.

 

Clarice's "come" command is pretty good (at least indoors), so, more often than not lately, I am just telling her to come to me instead of using a "negative" noise to first get her attention. So maybe work on "come" with your dog and then use it in those instances. I have to use a pretty happy high pitched voice for "come," but, it works.

[NeylasMom]

I like to use a small noise too - think of the buzzer noise from the game "Taboo"...that is the noise I make...sort of a "EH!" noise.

 

Clarice's "come" command is pretty good (at least indoors), so, more often than not lately, I am just telling her to come to me instead of using a "negative" noise to first get her attention. So maybe work on "come" with your dog and then use it in those instances. I have to use a pretty happy high pitched voice for "come," but, it works.

I know at this point I'm being a total PITA, but that's a good way to devalue your "come" cue unless you're paying with something with a much higher reinforcement value when your dog does come to you in response.

[krissn333]

She gets paid in treats she loves and only gets when we're working...still not okay?

 

You're not a pain, Jen. You have a lot more experience than many people and I value your suggestions.

I guess I do interrupt her first with some sort of noise...after I posted earlier I was paying more attention to what I do when she grabs something she shouldn't. I do interrupt her with a noise and then ask her to come and sit or come and do a "here." Weird how parts of that have just become habit.

 

Sorry for the derailment, folks!

[Hubcitypam]

ACCKKK is pretty much my go to "cut it out" signal/sound.

But what in the heck do I know? I have a 14 or 15 year old poodle that started out being named Dusty but he was such a hellion in his salad days I'd admonish him with "Poodle" and soon that was all he'd answer to. Hence Poodle the poodle Now he is 90% blind and deaf so he doesn't answer to much of anything.

[GreyTzu]

I say: "Knock it off or I am taking away the PlayStation."

 

Activity immediately stops and all eyes and ears are on me.

 

Works like a charm.

[cleptogrey]

I say: "Knock it off or I am taking away the PlayStation."

 

Activity immediately stops and all eyes and ears are on me.

 

Works like a charm.

 

i have always used an awful EAH-EAH sound. it's short and abrupt, to the point and ALL of my dogs (and daughter included) stop what they are doing. the first time i used it i spit out EAH-EAH WRONG! then leave the wrong off. it's works for me..... short and sharp and once. all of the trainers who i have worked with(some one must have taught it to me 40+ years ago) laugh, but they agree it works. all i have to do is one EAH and a dog will pick it's head up out of the garbage pail- if they have a moment of lost self control!

[Batmom]

We always follow an interrupt (such as AAAAAAH!) with the command we want the dog to perform and then of course reward the response to the command.

 

I don't find that using "Come!" to get the dog away from a distraction devalues or lessens interest in "Come!" As long as your reward for that command is more fun than the distraction .... But I wouldn't use it a lot -- only until teaching a reliable "Leave it!" or "Move along here!" or similar. I have had dogs who almost always come to me when I "Leave it! ... Good dog!" and others who leave it and then mosey off to do something else they want to do -- which is just fine.

[krissn333]

I've also found through this that the name work we did in obedience class works wonders too. Say her name, she looks at me.

[sobesmom]

This also works on certain dogs that you've had for a long time "Really?". My Diana gets in to so little trouble now that I'm always amazed when she even tries. So "Really?" makes her look up like "what! you though I was going to dig in that spot I love? Nah"....

[greysmom]

So, getting back a bit to the original question....

 

Clapping can be an appropriate signal to a dog. The summary from all the in-between comments just points out that you need to be aware of your dog's personality and how they react to correction. Some greyhounds have particularly "soft" personalities, and a harsh word will just kill them. Some are more resilient and can handle a shout or a clap or the squirt bottle with barely a turned ear. I have one that will stare me down throughout a correction until she's re-directed, but it only takes a time or two before she gets it. Another will do appeasement behaviors if you direct a harsh word his way, but he takes many more repetitions to stop the unwanted behavior. So you have to consider the direction of your correction.

 

As someone pointed out, your dog's reaction seems to indicate a clap might be too much for the nature of the behavior you're trying to correct, but you are the one that lives with him and knows him.