Soft Heart Murmur

[a_daerr]

I'm at the e-vets now as Henry's paw continued to swell and he is refusing food and water today... Trying to get that handled as best as possible, then the e-vet drops a bomb on me. While listening to his heart, she said he has a 'soft heart murmur.' He has seen at least three other vets who never mentioned this. I tried Googling 'greyhounds and heart murmurs' which turned up two articles, one from Dr. Tilley and the other from NGAP. These articles suggest this is a common genetic trait in greyhounds due to their athleticism. NGAP's article states medication or other invasive treatments are usually unnecessary.

 

The e-vet is suggesting a cardiology referral... Should I be worried about this?? I'm up to $1400 on the leg, so I'm really not trying to spend anymore.

[Batmom]

If he doesn't have any symptoms, you wouldn't do anything about a low-grade murmur. I'd worry about the leg, and maybe get an appointment with someone very familiar with greyhounds later on when you're feeling flush.

[dante2zoe]

What grade murmur? It is a subjective assessment, but my vet doesn't refer unless it gets worse over time. Dante had a 2/6 for years and when it jumped to 4, we had him assessed. Goose was just diagnosed with one so faint the vet was having a hard time finding it. Frankly, I think she was looking for a way to boot him from the blood donor program. My regular vet doesn't hear a thing.

[a_daerr]

If he doesn't have any symptoms, you wouldn't do anything about a low-grade murmur. I'd worry about the leg, and maybe get an appointment with someone very familiar with greyhounds later on when you're feeling flush.

Okay, this makes me feel better. As for the leg, they are draining the pocket of squishy fluid on the side of the joint. They're also doing a joint tap with a cytology of the aspirate, a CBC and TBD panel, replacing the Rimadyl with Gabapentin, and adding an anti-nausea med. I'm hopeful that pet insurance will cover some of this.

[greysmom]

Sounds like my recent (and still somewhat ongoing) adventure with Cash's jaw/neck abcess.

 

E-vets are trained to look for things that are wrong. Lots and lots of greys have heart murmurs with no affect to their lives. Though if you're planning on Henry being *very* active in the future - like agility or lure coursing - I would probably follow up at a later date.

[macoduck]

Regarding the swelling, any chance he was bitten by a spider?

[a_daerr]

Regarding the swelling, any chance he was bitten by a spider?

Very possible. It's been a very unusual turn of events. Excruciating pain for two days, couldn't bear any weight on it. Now there's a pocket of fluid collecting near the joint. Swelling has spread from one area into the whole leg. When they press on the lower half of his paw, it stays indented for awhile. She said that's not typical swelling- it's edema. Regular antibiotics are having little effect. The leg has gotten progressively worse over the last three days. I don't think a run of the mill sprain would've taken this direction.

[Riverhound]

Now, I *knew* what the issue with Brees was last year when she puffed up and stopped eating (cat bite), but the vet swore up and down that there was no infection under the skin. Her problem resolved when it burst, but I wish I'd stuck a pin in it when she first refused food.

 

I don't know what Henry's issue is, and I don't know your vet -- but I do know that vets can miss obvious thing, and that our dogs present differently the average mutt. Good luck to you and Henry!

[a_daerr]

Thanks. They were going on and on about osteo... I didn't want to say anything rude, but eventually I said, listen. I know all about osteo. This isn't it. Can you please just drain the leg?

[a_daerr]

Also, I remember what you went through with Brees. She looked very cute as a bull terrier.

[MaryJane]

One of my previous greys had a heart murmur and I went ahead and got the ultrasound and so on. Turns out that it was functional and we just had to watch it.

 

Only because Henry has seizures, you might want the heart information by the neurologist to make sure that you don't need a change in seizure treatment - I don't think so but, I'm not a neurologist.

 

Hope Henry gets better fast.

[a_daerr]

One of my previous greys had a heart murmur and I went ahead and got the ultrasound and so on. Turns out that it was functional and we just had to watch it.

 

Only because Henry has seizures, you might want the heart information by the neurologist to make sure that you don't need a change in seizure treatment - I don't think so but, I'm not a neurologist.

 

Hope Henry gets better fast.

Thanks Is it possible that there's a connection between the two?

[Hubcitypam]

Poodle has had a low grade three murmur for at least 5 or 6 years with few problems, but then he's a poodle...

[TwiggysMom]

Twiggy's vet mentioned a low-grade murmur at her first vet visit, but hasn't heard it since, and none of her other specialist vets have, either.

 

I think I've heard that sometimes vets aren't accustomed to the sound of the large, athletic heart of a greyhound and misinterpret it is a murmur. Please, someone correct me if I am not recollecting this correctly.

 

I hope that the source of Henry's pain and swelling can be resolved through antibiotics and pain meds! I agree, it certainly doesn't sound like osteo to me, and after our conversation at GIG, I know you are very well-versed on that topic!)

[Guest DeniseL]

Izzy has a low grade heart murmur. We are just monitering it every 6 to 8 months or so. No cardiologist unless it changes significantly. My vet also told me to count her resting heart rate as this can be a good indication of heart disease...my bridge baby Maya had a heart murmur her whole life. Sometimes it was loud sometimes they couldn't even detect it. She lived to a few months shy of 16. Hope henry is feeling better soon!!

[a_daerr]

It's a joint infection. I suspect a spider bite. I'll post more specifics in the other thread tomorrow. I've been at the e-vet for the past 7 hours...

[greyhead]

Sending hugs.

[MaryJane]

Thanks Is it possible that there's a connection between the two?

 

 

Shouldn't be but, confirm with the neurologist that there isn't.

 

On the swelling, any chance that it is a snake bite?

[JJNg]

Here's a good article about greyhound heart size and heart murmurs from OSU. I hope Henry's joint infection heals quickly. If it doesn't respond as expected, consider tick-borne disease testing.

[a_daerr]

Thanks all for the info on heart murmurs. I updated on Henry's condition in the other post.

[a_daerr]

Update: We went to the vet yesterday for Henry's follow up appointment. I brought up the heart murmur, and the vet gave me some more info. It was only 1/6 yesterday, which was down from 2/6 at the e-vet two weeks ago. Our regular vet is a little concerned that the murmur may be attributed to the leg infection. If it is, the massive amount of antibiotics should make it go away. If it doesn't go away, she's recommending a chest x-ray and a test to check his heart enzymes. I'm still not really that concerned... I feel like it's probably genetic and went unnoticed all this time, rather than a heart condition that just popped up. But I still might do the additional tests to be on the safe side. Those of you who have experience on this... any thoughts?

[Batmom]

Are the vets in question familiar with greyhound hearts? See for example https://greyhound.osu.edu/resources/faq/index.cfm#Murmurs .

 

If the dog has symptoms of cardiac insufficiency, an x-ray is a good place to start -- shows the size of the heart.

 

 

 

 

ETA: It isn't a genetic thing, exactly. It has to do with normal greyhound physiology.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Batmom

[a_daerr]

I talked to the vet about it and gave her an article I found from Iowa State. This is what it said:

 

"As with any athlete, human or canine, the more exercise the body endures, the more conditioned it will become and all muscles, including the heart will exhibit some degree of hypertrophy (thickening or enlarging). According to Dr. Tilley, greyhounds have “totally different heart values”, particularly in relation to ultrasound testing, and cannot be compared to other breeds. An enlarged heart, as determined by ultrasound studies, does not always indicate disease of the heart. Heart murmurs in greyhounds appear to occur at a younger age than most breeds, however are likely to be genetic rather than indicative of pathology... In Dr. Tilley’s opinion, medicating an asymptomatic dog for heart murmur is most likely of little or no benefit."

 

I interpreted the research to mean that it's most likely of little importance, especially if he's not having any other problems or symptoms. If it's a horse, I don't want to start looking for zebras with all kinds of unneccessary testing. Not to mention, I'm up to $1700 with the infection. I anticipate this would be another expensive process.

[racindog]

I've had greyhounds with heart murmurs and fostered greyhounds with heart murmurs and investigated it to my satisfaction and for me it is nothing to be concerned about unless there are other symptoms being exhibited. None of the dogs with the murmurs ever developed any problems with their heart. Aggie lived to be 14 1/2. I have also noticed that with the same dog some vets will pick it up and some won't--so how bad could it be or how confident can you be in the diagnosis-either way you want to look at it. Gilly Boy 5 yoa has one according to 1 vet. Momma has 1 according to a different vet. And the vet that told me Gilly Boy has one said nothing about Momma's when she examined her. Neither dog has any issues and Momma is 13 right now-so with her its no small wonder that the ole valves might be leakin a little. I even have insurance so the money isn't an issue but I still have not had any further testing done -other than a chest x-ray on Momma because of her age- and I don't plan to unless there is some symptom of a cardiac issue. It seems to me that the more I keep my guys away from the vets-the healthier they are lol.

[JJNg]

While a mild heart murmur in a greyhound is often insignificant, that isn't true 100% of the time. Greyhounds can still get heart disease just like any other dog. The only way to determine whether your dog's murmur is significant is to investigate further. A chest x-ray and the cardiac enzyme bloodwork would be a good place to start.