Punishment For Leaving

[PJR107]

So my GH has learned a new trick... she pees on our bed when I have to leave her in the house. Its happened two times in the last week. I know she doesn't have to go and I know she is still a bit anxious when I leave (barks for a bit then gets quiet).

 

Suggestions? She doesn't eat when I leave (haven't found one she loves yet...she isnt interested in peanut butter) and I was thinking of crating her at this point. We havent done that because I do leave her infrequently. Could this do more stress than good?

Other simple cause? Its gotten dramatically warm... could be the issue.... who knows!

 

Thanks!

pj

[Brandiandwe]

Are you sure she doesn't need to go? Is she drinking more because of the warmer weather? Does she have a UTI?

 

Otherwise, I don't think dogs do that stuff to punish us. The only time one of ours has deliberately peed on a human bed was when we had an overnight guest who owned dogs. Brandi firmly marked 'our' territory by peeing on the guests bed. It was a sentiment I appreciated although I could have done without the clean up.

 

You may think about crating or maybe shutting her out of the bedroom? More alone training?

[grey14me]

If she's not been crated, I wouldn't start now. I would test for a UTI...maybe ask for antibiotics anyway. Sometimes it helps before it shows up on the test.

[Chicocat]

Dogs don't "punish". It sounds like she has separation anxiety.

[silverfish]

Dogs don't "punish". It sounds like she has separation anxiety.

 

Yep. Sounds like anxiety. Dogs do not punish.

 

If you leave infrequently, this can contribute to the problem. All is going along nicely - according to her view of the world - and suddenly, for no reason, she is abandoned.

 

She probably gets terribly anxious and dogs have just a few things they can do about that: they can howl/bark/whine, they can chew something (either your furniture etc or themselves) or they can pee or poop. These are all known to be anxiety-based behaviours in this situation. Some also develop other self-calming patterns of behaviour like circling, but those are the usual three options open to an anxious dog.

 

You can help by doing some 'alone' training. A search of this forum should turn up a lot of threads with detailed instructions, but if you can't find them, ask and someone will write them out again. I don't have time this morning (have to go out).

 

You will need to reinforce the training regularly, since you don't leave her often - or else make a point of leaving her for short periods more regularly.

 

Oh, and whatever you do, do NOT yell at her or otherwise punish her for doing this. It will only make her more anxious and the whole situation is likely to get worse.

 

If you catch her in the act, you can say 'NO!' or give a sharp 'Uh-Uh!' and take her outside to finish off, then praise her for doing so. But never punish after the event.

[Guest JaneandSara]

I agree, sounds like anxiety (assuming no UTI). One of our used to get excited and pee when we came home - had to rush in and let her out before! Try going out and leaving her every now and then for just a few minutes, gradually increasing the time you are out.

[DocsDoctor]

It's anxiety. The bed is a place that smells strongly of you, so she's trying to reassure herself by mingling her scent with yours. Continue to work on alone training, and meanwhile can you just close the door to your bedroom when you go out?

[Guest DragonflyDM]

So my GH has learned a new trick... she pees on our bed when I have to leave her in the house. Its happened two times in the last week. I know she doesn't have to go and I know she is still a bit anxious when I leave (barks for a bit then gets quiet).

 

Suggestions? She doesn't eat when I leave (haven't found one she loves yet...she isnt interested in peanut butter) and I was thinking of crating her at this point. We havent done that because I do leave her infrequently. Could this do more stress than good?

Other simple cause? Its gotten dramatically warm... could be the issue.... who knows!

 

Thanks!

pj

Dogs do not know how to “punish” from revenge.

 

Your bed has your strongest scent and when a dog is feeling sick, not confident, or scared, it will use techniques like hiding in the scent of another animal. And if your bed is a strong scent then it will feel more comfortable peeing there because you can mask his smells with your own.

[Batmom]

Does she empty her bladder right before you leave?

[JohnF]

SA almost certainly. And yes they can and do 'punish us'.

I remember bringing back a new bed for one of my Borzois and putting in her own special place, in comes the Great Dane and pees on it straight away.... 'Everything in here is mine - do you get it now!"#

Peggy damages the lawn if I don't give her attention because I'm stressed with something... she could go an toss her toys around, but noooooooo , it has to be the lawn which annoys me.

[Batmom]

Any "punishment" is in the eyes of the human, not in the intention of the dog. Dogs often do things out of nervousness, excitement, fear ... but there's no intention to punish the human.

 

Most often, when a dog goes to the bathroom, the dog has to go. Nervousness, excitement, and fear can contribute to that. So too can a desire to scent-mark. But, giant puddles, big poops, etc. occur primarily because the dog wasn't empty to begin with. They have capacity , but that capacity isn't limitless.

[Guest DragonflyDM]

SA almost certainly. And yes they can and do 'punish us'.

I remember bringing back a new bed for one of my Borzois and putting in her own special place, in comes the Great Dane and pees on it straight away.... 'Everything in here is mine - do you get it now!"#

Peggy damages the lawn if I don't give her attention because I'm stressed with something... she could go an toss her toys around, but noooooooo , it has to be the lawn which annoys me.

Almost every bit of research ever done shows that we anthropromorphize our dogs and give meaning to actions that are erroneous.

 

Peggy damages the lawn because you are stressed and that stresses her. She is looking to you for leadership and confidence. You get annoyed which reinforces the stress level your dog has and undermines the dog's confidence more in your leadership and their safety of the pack.

 

http://www.animalhumanesociety.org/training/library/destructive-behavior-dogs

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-a-Dog's-Unwanted-Behavior

 

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/inappropriate-elimination-not-housetraining.aspx

 

http://www.cesarsway.com/tips/trainerscorner/Submissive-Urination

 

http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/content/animals/animals/breeds/dogtopics/dog_behavior.htm

 

http://www.thedogdaily.com/conduct/behavior/dogs_revenge/#axzz2U1WDvXQv

 

http://www.mspca.org/programs/pet-owner-resources/pet-owner-guides/dog-care/destructive-behavior.html

[XTRAWLD]

I would also suggest trying to take her on a very long walk to tire her out before you need to leave. A tired dog, is a content dog. She also gets to spend time with you before you depart. There are a lot of things you'll need to work on to help her through her SA. Happy reading and good luck!

[ShebasMom]

Sheba is used to my comings and goings although I'm retired and home a lot. She sometimes chews the door frame leading into the garage--where I leave and return--but not every time I leave. I figure it's the anxiety of my leaving and boredom, particularly when I'm gone over 3-4 hours. I'm living with it. Short of getting another hound, when I remodel, I'm going to get a PVC/synthetic door frame to hopefully curb that practice.

[silverfish]

Almost every bit of research ever done shows that we anthropromorphize our dogs and give meaning to actions that are erroneous.

 

Peggy damages the lawn because you are stressed and that stresses her. She is looking to you for leadership and confidence. You get annoyed which reinforces the stress level your dog has and undermines the dog's confidence more in your leadership and their safety of the pack.

 

 

Absolutely correct.

 

Tossing toys is play. Anxiety responses are not play, they are instinctive behaviours. You can't expect her to replace one with the other.

 

Digging can be like circling: a compulsive displacement activity. And it's a vicious cycle. For instance: She gets stressed because she senses you are stressed, so she goes away and digs to relieve her own tension (since you are stressed/too busy/preoccupied yourself and unable to help her). You then probably yell at her for damaging the lawn, which stresses her more, and sets her up for a quicker response next time.

 

I'd suggest that next time you are pressured and feel yourself getting wound up, you make an effort to behave calmly around Peggy and reassure her with a soft, slow voice and gentle touch and see if she settles better. It doesn't have to be a lot of attention, at least, not once you've primed her with some training. I catch Jeffie looking at me with anxiety sometimes, because he's incredibly easily stressed and maybe there's been a loud noise or something has happened to shake his world. I have put in a lot of time with him on this issue, and can now just look at him and say 'It's OK, Jeffie' in my 'reassuring' voice and his head goes down and he relaxes. They sometimes just need to know that you're not mad with them.

[PJR107]

Dogs can reprimand us humans for our misbehavior.... growl when we try and take a bone from them is one good example. I have had a dog (another breed) that could tell time and "punish" you for being late. If you left her for three hours, she was ok; at the start of that fourth hour, she would find something in the house, chew it and leave it in the front hallway for you to find when you came home.

 

No, she is not being reprimanded for peeing, not unless I catch her. Yes, we have been doing the separation training and continue with it. As far as I know its not a UTI but Im checking with the vet anyway. Its just something that started and had wondered if anyone else encountered something similar. We've had little things crop up as we go... some additional barking (she didnt like the lawn care guys not coming over to say hi to her) to a weird walking gait (holly leaves!)

 

And I did find a solution to the kong filler.... frozen cream cheese was suggested. Don't know if anyone else encountered this issue.

 

thanks again

pj

[a_daerr]

Dogs can reprimand us humans for our misbehavior.... growl when we try and take a bone from them is one good example.

 

I respectfully disagree. There is a ton of evidence suggesting that this type of situation is "resource guarding." The dog does not want to punish YOU- he'd just prefer you not take his bone away. In greyhounds, that's a common behavior because they are never given their own possessions at the track. When they finally get something to call their own (be it a treat, toy, bone, etc.) they want to keep it. It's like taking a toy away from a child. They don't cry because they want to punish you- they simply just want their toy back.

 

As for your original post, I agree with the others. It sounds like your dog has a form of separation anxiety. There are many dogs who are happy and well-balanced 99% of the time, but still exhibit anxious behaviors when confronted with certain types of stress. I would definitely (1) make sure she gets plenty of exercise, (2) work on "alone training," (3) make sure she empties out before you leave, and (4) either crate or confine her to a smaller area where she'll be less likely to pee.

[Brandiandwe]

If the peeing started up suddenly definitely check for a UTI. It's usually the cause in our house.

[silverfish]

Dogs can reprimand us humans for our misbehavior.... growl when we try and take a bone from them is one good example. I have had a dog (another breed) that could tell time and "punish" you for being late. If you left her for three hours, she was ok; at the start of that fourth hour, she would find something in the house, chew it and leave it in the front hallway for you to find when you came home.

 

No, she is not being reprimanded for peeing, not unless I catch her. Yes, we have been doing the separation training and continue with it. As far as I know its not a UTI but Im checking with the vet anyway. Its just something that started and had wondered if anyone else encountered something similar. We've had little things crop up as we go... some additional barking (she didnt like the lawn care guys not coming over to say hi to her) to a weird walking gait (holly leaves!)

 

And I did find a solution to the kong filler.... frozen cream cheese was suggested. Don't know if anyone else encountered this issue.

 

thanks again

pj

 

With respect, growling when you try to take a bone is entirely different from anxiety-based behaviour. It is a simple reaction to having something of theirs directly threatened. It would be difficult for competitive animals like dogs to survive in the wild if they could not protect a food source.

 

However, putting a dog in an artificial situation (away from his or her pack and left alone) causes a situation which dogs are not equipped to deal with in evolutionary terms. It changes things entirely.

 

Chewing something and leaving it in the hall 'for you to find' is again anthropomorphising. If your dog chews something when you're gone (and only when you're gone) it's pretty much going to be out of anxiety.

 

Here's what usually happens: He goes to the front door, where he expects his beloved person to appear. You don't appear. He's not accustomed to being left alone, so he's becoming more anxious. He goes to find something to chew because that's his instinctive desire - to self-calm. He brings it back to the front door because that's where you're going to appear, and he wants to be close by when you do. However, when you DO appear, the sound of you approaching the front door triggers a simple association in his mind of 'chewed item + you entering = anger' (or at the least, very displeased body language) and most dogs will drop the chewed item and go to somewhere they feel is 'theirs' or 'safe' - like their bed or a corner behind a piece of furniture. When you go to find him, if you are still angry, he will respond with appeasement behaviours which in dog-speak simply mean 'please don't hurt me': lowering of body posture, 'puppy eyes', tail tucked etc etc. Some people will then mistakenly interpret this as guilt.

 

It might not be what we would do, but it is what dogs do.

[Guest DragonflyDM]

The concept of punishing is a concept that an animal is forward thinking in an conceptual/abstract. “It is 4pm and daddy isn’t home. He broke the rules and so I must punish him. Not being an animal, he would hate it if I peed on his new Armani suit!"

 

Dogs do not think anthropromorphically. They are very present creatures. They are negotiating what is before them. They aren’t worried about next week, the next day, the next hour.

 

So if an animal is aggressive it comes from: 1) an immediate threat (e.g. danger, resource hoarding), 2) Classical conditioning and Amygdala habituation. Dogs do not work with operant conditioning. They aren’t dealing with rewards and punishments for cost-benefit analysis of future behavioral.

 

Heck…my teenage daughter can’t work on that level apparently.

[JohnF]

Almost every bit of research ever done shows that we anthropromorphize our dogs and give meaning to actions that are erroneous.

 

And indeed it darned well does, but animal behavioural 'science' is notorious for not seeing what you actually see because it's not listed in the initial trial description and therefore 'lacking in relevance'. Having been raised on a diary farm with hundreds of cows over the years of all ages and then going on to take a Zoology degree I was amazed at how wrong they were getting it.

Peggy actually can be cussed. If I'm in the middle of cooking with things on the stove or in the oven going 'critical' I do not want to have to let the dog out and watch what she's up to, yet this is the very time she insists upon it. She knows I can't keep the same amount of eye upon her and so the zoomies lead to digging. Back she comes indoors panting and looking as pleased as punch with herself. Exactly like a kid who's just got away with something

[greytpups]

 

I respectfully disagree. There is a ton of evidence suggesting that this type of situation is "resource guarding." The dog does not want to punish YOU- he'd just prefer you not take his bone away. In greyhounds, that's a common behavior because they are never given their own possessions at the track. When they finally get something to call their own (be it a treat, toy, bone, etc.) they want to keep it. It's like taking a toy away from a child. They don't cry because they want to punish you- they simply just want their toy back.

 

 

 

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but my understanding is that greyhounds are given their own possessions and don't have to share. For example, they are fed in their kennel and do not have to worry about anyone taking food from them, or sleeping with them, etc. while in their kennel. I believe this was Kathleen Gilley's famous article (??).

OP, I suspect your grey's behaviour may be connected to your feelings. If you are anxious about peeing, the grey will pick up on your anxiety, etc. As others have mentioned, people attribute (anthropomorphize) human feelings and actions to animals which is incorrect.

Edited May 23, 2013 by greytpups

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Very simple solution to this discussion.

 

The act of retaliation for a perceived slight requires higher cognitive ability. This higher cognitive thinking is done entirely in the frontal cortex of the brain. A dog does not have a fully developed frontal cortex (something that has not evolved in their little skull), therefor a dog simply does not have the ability to think this way.

[JohnF]

>>The act of retaliation for a perceived slight requires higher cognitive ability.>>

 

Yes of course. Yet:

 

You steal my bone again and I'll make darned sure you'll regret it!

That's my kill and I'm going to eat from it first.... OK?

Humans will give me loads of treats if I act really cute.

I'll bite that vet if he goes to touch my feet again too.

 

You see it's not quite so simple where social cognitive behaviour is involved. if interested read:

 

http://faculty.washington.edu/jcha/330_dog_social_cognition.pdf

[Batmom]

Actually, those examples *are* simple. The dog wasn't planning revenge but merely applying experience -- forming what we humans would call habits. The dog learns that when s/he has a bone and you approach in a particular way, you're going to try to take it. The dog isn't thinking at the first instance, "Next time I'll get him!" The dog simply reacts to the second instance, recognizing the pattern you laid down. There's no big planning or revenge or lengthy thought process about it. And, the dog isn't trying to punish anyone for taking the bone -- the dog is simply trying to keep the bone.

 

BTW, most times the dog doesn't bite the vet when s/he touches the feet again. Thank goodness!

Edited May 25, 2013 by Batmom