Ancestors To Avoid?

[Guest greytbuds]

I'm curious if any of you have seen any studies or research about ancestry being linked to the occurence of osteocarcoma. I know the folks at OSU have done lots of wonderful research to help prevent and treat the horrible disease and I may check their website when I have some extra time. Maybe some of our veterinary professionals will weigh in as to whether this is possible. I would imagine if we had a good idea of a hereditary problem, the breeding community would try to avoid passing it on.

 

Thanks for any information you've seen or ideas of where to look.

 

Greytbuds

[DocsDoctor]

Here in the UK I have more than once seen it said that descent from Greenpark Fox, a prolific Irish sire, is likely to increase a greyhound's predisposition to bone cancer.

 

This seems to be based on anecdotal evidence only - see here for a discussion on a British forum.

 

My Doc is a great-grandson of Greenpark Fox but remains fit and well to date - he turned ten back in August.

[kudzu]

..seen it said that descent from Greenpark Fox, a prolific Irish sire, is likely to increase a greyhound's predisposition to bone cancer.

This seems to be based on anecdotal evidence only ...

My Doc is a great-grandson of Greenpark Fox but remains fit and well to date - he turned ten back in August.

Greenpark Fox great-granddaughter is sleeping on a bed near me. Will be 10 yo next week. Hoping we dodge that bullet for a long time to come.

 

ETA: Went to look at that topic from the link you provided. Its from 2010 & it references, "The old greyhound men say that if they have Greenpark Fox in their breeding they are more likely to get it." So maybe they are thinking of dogs with Greenpark Fox as sire or grandsire. Also mentions dogs of his line getting it at a younger age. I'm going to go on the idea that if he appears farther back in the pedigree & my dog has made it to 10 yo then she isn't going to suffer from the G. Fox jinx. If she ultimately gets osteo then it is just as likely unrelated to him.

Edited November 11, 2011 by kudzu

[Charlies_Dad]

Unfortunately you likely cannot avoid the possibility no matter what you do. If you look at the lineage of any pup, there are common sires and dams for many. Some sires had thousands of pups so their genes are throughout most lines. It's sad but mother nature did not design humans or animals to breed this way, diversity is key and that is why so many pure bred breeds (not just Greys) have very specific diseases that plague them. Osteo unfortunately is brutal and takes no prisoners.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

So if you found solid evidence that certain lines are more prone to osteo, would that preclude you from adopting a hound from said line?

[Guest Yankeegreyhound]

So if you found solid evidence that certain lines are more prone to osteo, would that preclude you from adopting a hound from said line?

 

 

I have to say, for me, yes. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Hailey, her littermate and her half sister (same Sire) all have or had osteo. Those are the only 3 dogs from that Sire that I know of at all but that is enough for me. That sire had over 1700 pups but if I see him in a line for any dog I am thinking of adopting, I would not adopt that dog.

[GeorgeofNE]

My dog's sire produced (so far) about 7,000 pups. I know there are others who have produced upwards (and over) 10,000.

 

If I found out that his sire, Oshkosh Slammer was producing a lot of dogs who came down with osteo, yes, I'd avoid them in the future.

 

From what I heard Dr. Couto say at a lecture he gave, they do believe there is a genetic component to the number of cases in NGA hounds.

Edited November 15, 2011 by GeorgeofNE

[Guest sweetpea]

post deleted because it was poorly phrased and clumsy.

 

If I can't make a point clearly and concisely, it's probably a point

I shouldn't make.

 

Apologies for any offense.

 

Buzzy

Edited November 12, 2011 by sweetpea

[dmdsmoxie]

Something will always take your dog and something will always be number one on the list.

 

I'm offended that you think I am uncaring. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

 

Dick

[greysmom]

We just had a similar discussion in the Osteo Thread a few days ago. Even if you could isolate a genetic component, I don't think it would do any good to try and avoid that particular line if all you want to do is avoid osteosarcoma.

 

Cancer is cancer. It's probably the most pervasive killer of every kind of life on the planet, particularly as humans introduce more cancer-causing agents into the living environment, knowlingly or unknowingly. If it's not osteo, then it will be lymphoma, or leukemia, or another type of cancer that likely will impact large mammals - including humans - at some point in their lives. And it's still a crap shoot for survivability no matter what - some beat it, some don't, some go sooner, some last a long time. At this point, there are no answers to any of the questions about why, who, or when.

 

So even if you do adopt a dog that has a genetically lower risk of osteo, that dog still has a risk, both from non-genetically-linked osteo and other cancers. You can't ever be sure any dog is not at risk. So, for me, it wouldn't (probably) make a difference.

[4My2Greys]

Dick I don't think anyone meant to imply you or other race owners do not care about these dogs.

There is though as was mentioned a business element to dog racing and if it was determined that specific lines had a marked increase in cases of osteo, but they were also known to produce top racers do you think that those involved in the breeding would do their best to stop using those lines or would the desire to produce a top racer win out. Taking it from the adopter's side I'd be interested in knowing if there were specific lines predisposed, but I hope I would not let it be a deciding factor in adoption. I think of all the greys on this board that have been lost to cancer, each one of them was loved dearly by someone. Every greyhound deserves a person who cares about them during their career and someone who will love and care for them in retirement no matter what kind of racer they were or how predisposed they were to certain ailments.

[Sambuca]

The male men in my family die of cancer in their early to mid 60's with their mothers outliving them. So far it's every man in that line for the last 3 generations. That didn't stop my brother or sister from having kids (both have a boy and a girl) and I don't think knowing cancer is in the lines of a dog would stop me from adopting it. It would make me sure to have a plan ready (not to say that I would follow the plan, but it can't hurt to try and be prepared.)

[NeylasMom]

There are studies being conducted and I think it's pretty generally accepted that there is a genetic component, but there isn't (at least to my knowledge) the kind of specific information you're looking for yet. And given how many dogs come out of certain lines, anecdotal evidence is pretty useless if you ask me. Perhaps with the exception of looking to adopt a dog whose immediate family members have already been diagnosed with it.

 

If the knowledge were available, I don't see any difference between choosing not to adopt dogs from those lines than not choosing a certain breed because you know they are genetically predisposed to a certain issue (like deciding against a lab because they're prone to hip dysplasia) or for people who get dogs from breeders, not buying a dog from someone whose line doesn't prove to be medically sound. We all do our research and decide what issues we feel more capable of dealing with and as long as we're prepared to deal with anything that might arise knowing there are never any guarantees I don't see anything wrong with that.

[krissy]

Dick I don't think anyone meant to imply you or other race owners do not care about these dogs.

There is though as was mentioned a business element to dog racing and if it was determined that specific lines had a marked increase in cases of osteo, but they were also known to produce top racers do you think that those involved in the breeding would do their best to stop using those lines or would the desire to produce a top racer win out. Taking it from the adopter's side I'd be interested in knowing if there were specific lines predisposed, but I hope I would not let it be a deciding factor in adoption. I think of all the greys on this board that have been lost to cancer, each one of them was loved dearly by someone. Every greyhound deserves a person who cares about them during their career and someone who will love and care for them in retirement no matter what kind of racer they were or how predisposed they were to certain ailments.

 

Actually, you may be on to something there. OSU is doing some studies into the genetics of osteo. One thought at the moment is that the genetics that predispose to speed are linked to genes that predispose to cancer. By selecting for dogs that are fast, we are also indirectly selecting for dogs predisposed to developing osteo. It has been shown that other traits are "linked" so it's not a crazy idea that speed is linked to osteo. We'll just have to stay tuned to find out.

[krissn333]

I'm sure there is a link, but at this point, as many have said, the gene pool is a bit saturated, so if any of those really prolific sites and dams are carriers, their genetic material is pretty well propagated.

 

There was some talk a while back about Onie Jones being a source. Every single one of my dogs (including angel Sutra), so, 5 greyhounds, has Onie Jones in their line somewhere. I lost Sutra to osteo, Pinky is currently recovering from an amputation following osteo diagnosis, and Ace has leukemia. BUT, Carrie (age 12), and Fritz (age 10 and Ace's littermate brother) are perfectly healthy. There are so many dogs between Onie Jones and my dogs that it could come from anywhere!

 

I don't think anything would keep me from adopting a dog with a suspected osteo carrier in it's line. Life is unpredictable. We all deserve to be loved and cared for. If that means that I endure this osteo heartbreak over and over for the rest of my days, so be it. The love that these dogs give is worth so much more than what it costs me emotionally and financially.

[dmdsmoxie]

I'm sure there is a link, but at this point, as many have said, the gene pool is a bit saturated, so if any of those really prolific sites and dams are carriers, their genetic material is pretty well propagated.

 

There was some talk a while back about Onie Jones being a source. Every single one of my dogs (including angel Sutra), so, 5 greyhounds, has Onie Jones in their line somewhere. I lost Sutra to osteo, Pinky is currently recovering from an amputation following osteo diagnosis, and Ace has leukemia. BUT, Carrie (age 12), and Fritz (age 10 and Ace's littermate brother) are perfectly healthy. There are so many dogs between Onie Jones and my dogs that it could come from anywhere!

 

I don't think anything would keep me from adopting a dog with a suspected osteo carrier in it's line. Life is unpredictable. We all deserve to be loved and cared for. If that means that I endure this osteo heartbreak over and over for the rest of my days, so be it. The love that these dogs give is worth so much more than what it costs me emotionally and financially.

 

For every pedigree that has Onie Jones, or any of the other Jones dogs from that great litter, there is Hoefer, the sire, and Elsie Jones, the dam. So my question to the person that came to this conclusion, and I know you weren't the one to place the blame on Onie Jones, would be how did you eliminate the sire and dam of Onie Jones and come to the conclusion it was Onie?

 

Dick

[krissn333]

Exactly, Dick

[Guest tricolorhounds]

Dick I don't think anyone meant to imply you or other race owners do not care about these dogs.

There is though as was mentioned a business element to dog racing and if it was determined that specific lines had a marked increase in cases of osteo, but they were also known to produce top racers do you think that those involved in the breeding would do their best to stop using those lines or would the desire to produce a top racer win out. Taking it from the adopter's side I'd be interested in knowing if there were specific lines predisposed, but I hope I would not let it be a deciding factor in adoption. I think of all the greys on this board that have been lost to cancer, each one of them was loved dearly by someone. Every greyhound deserves a person who cares about them during their career and someone who will love and care for them in retirement no matter what kind of racer they were or how predisposed they were to certain ailments.

 

Actually, you may be on to something there. OSU is doing some studies into the genetics of osteo. One thought at the moment is that the genetics that predispose to speed are linked to genes that predispose to cancer. By selecting for dogs that are fast, we are also indirectly selecting for dogs predisposed to developing osteo. It has been shown that other traits are "linked" so it's not a crazy idea that speed is linked to osteo. We'll just have to stay tuned to find out.

 

 

I'm no expert but where did this come from? Don't Golden Retrievers have high rates of osteo? as well as all other breeds of large dogs.

[Guest PhillyPups]

I adopt my greyhounds based on my heart and soul. I have lost 3 to osteo, 5 to cancer, all of the ones I lost to cancer were in double digits (SugarBear - osteo - age 14.5; TigerPower - osteo - 10-1/2). I lost my first, Runner, just before he turned 8 to a massive heart attack so as Dick says, we will lose them to something sometime.

 

Whether we lose one to osteo, or any other means, all losses are painful.

 

I may be missing something here, or I am just a little slow this morning, but I have never looked at one of my hound's pedigrees as a deciding factor in adopting. But then, I don't look at my pedigree as anything important either, sort of like being able to join DAR and not caring.

 

 

Maybe I am not the typical adopter. I did not care who was who in any of my hound's pedigrees, I learned about their ancestors once they joined me. I had no idea Gremlin had an "impeccable pedigree" nor did I care, I knew she was 11, had 48 pups and needed a couch.

 

I now sit, in my insecurity, wondering if I am doing this all wrong. Then I look around me at the hounds lying on the beds around the room, and think, nah, this is perfect for me. I do not bring in a hound with the thoughts of losing them, I bring one in for the joy of sharing our journeys, for however long it may be, each one brings me a gift and teaches me a lesson. I have become a better person for the lessons they teach me.

Edited November 12, 2011 by PhillyPups

[Guest zombrie]

I adopt my greyhounds based on my heart and soul. I have lost 3 to osteo, 5 to cancer, all of the ones I lost to cancer were in double digits (SugarBear - osteo - age 14.5; TigerPower - osteo - 10-1/2). I lost my first, Runner, just before he turned 8 to a massive heart attack so as Dick says, we will lose them to something sometime.

 

Whether we lose one to osteo, or any other means, all losses are painful.

 

I may be missing something here, or I am just a little slow this morning, but I have never looked at one of my hound's pedigrees as a deciding factor in adopting. But then, I don't look at my pedigree as anything important either, sort of like being able to join DAR and not caring.

 

 

Maybe I am not the typical adopter. I did not care who was who in any of my hound's pedigrees, I learned about their ancestors once they joined me. I had no idea Gremlin had an "impeccable pedigree" nor did I care, I knew she was 11, had 48 pups and needed a couch.

 

I now sit, in my insecurity, wondering if I am doing this all wrong. Then I look around me at the hounds lying on the beds around the room, and think, nah, this is perfect for me. I do not bring in a hound with the thoughts of losing them, I bring one in for the joy of sharing our journeys, for however long it may be, each one brings me a gift and teaches me a lesson. I have become a better person for the lessons they teach me.

 

I agree with this... I would never decide to not bring in a dog because of a certain dog in their lines

In adopting greyhounds, I KNOW the risks, and yes, it SUCKS. But I will spend everyday loving my dogs to the fullest, not thinking how or when they will die...

If I wanted to avoid osteo all together, I would go with a different breed. But going to a different breed doesn't eliminate the risks of other forms of cancer.

I'm sorry if that sounded snarky, I don't' mean to be at all. I'm just saying that I really don't think that there is avoiding the dreaded C word with greyhounds, no matter who is in their lines.

[Batmom]

Don't Golden Retrievers have high rates of osteo? as well as all other breeds of large dogs.

 

Yep. All large, long-boned dogs.

 

Some folks seem to feel that only NGA greyhounds get osteo and AKC greyhounds don't, but that appears to be a sampling error. AKC greyhounds do get osteo too. As do wolfhounds, deerhounds, great danes, rottweilers, goldens, dobermans, and the occasional border collie ......

 

In addition, there aren't that many diseases where we can say (or will be able to say, after more research), "Aha! This one gene here!" More likely to be a complex combination of multiple genes added to environmental factors. Add in subsets of these cancers -- early onset (much less common), geriatric onset, specific type or subtype of cancer -- and the complexity of the issue skyrockets.

 

The current answer is, "Nobody knows."

[Charlies_Dad]

I'll add only one more thing. Charlie has Osteo and if I knew he was going to get it 4 years ago when I adopted him, I would have taken him anyways. He has made me smile and laugh so many times he is worth his weight in gold. He does what all pups do: when I come home he meets me at the door wagging his tail, when I grab my keys he is right beside me wagging his tail, whining and shaking from his excitement to go for a ride, when he's in the backyard he's running around chasing squirrels and chipmunks, when he wants his dinner he chews a nylabone in frustration or lays in the kitchen so you know he's waiting.

 

I guess what I am saying is he is a normal pup who deserves a happy home and I hope that is what he has no matter the time I have with him.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Charlies_Dad

[Guest PhillyPups]

I'll add only one more thing. Charlie has Osteo and if I knew he was going to get it 4 years ago when I adopted him, I would have taken him anyways. He has made me smile and laugh so many times he is worth his weight in gold. He does what all pups do: when I come home he meets me at the door wagging his tail, when I grab my keys he is right beside me wagging his tail, whining and shaking from his excitement to go for a ride, when he's in the backyard he's running around chasing squirrels and chipmunks, when he wants his dinner he chews a nylabone in frustration or lays in the kitchen so you know he's waiting.

 

I guess what I am saying is he is a normal pup who deserves a happy home and I hope that is what he has no matter the time I have with him.

 

Thanks Kyle, you put it so well. I do not know of anyone who lost a pup to osteo that regretted adopting that pup. I think of the song "The Dance" and I would not have missed one step of the dance with any of my hounds.

[Guest june]

I've lost one to Osteo and it is hard but would I change my mind if I had to do it over again? No. Even though She wasn't with me long she has a piece of my heart and I gave it freely.

 

The other thing is there are environmental factors that contribute to Osteo too. So how do you rule those out? Just like with people we just don't know what fate has in store for our pups.

 

I do look at my dogs pedigrees but mostly to see any connections between my dogs.

[krissn333]

Don't get me wrong, I love looking at pedigrees (especially because we get a lot of Dutch Bahama pups who have the gorgeous eyeliner eyes), but I look for the fun things. Found out that Ace and Fritz's father is my parents' pup Goody's grandpa, and that their boy Sunny has Dutch Bahama in his lineage (it's pretty clear when you look at him )

 

My group placed almost an entire litter over the course of several years. When they'd come in, I could tell who they were even before I looked at their paperwork. Born 2-16-02 to Gable Dodge and Lucky Loretta, those dogs are some of the ornery-est, most hilarious, most non cat safe dogs I have ever met. And boy were they fun! I always loved telling potential adopters about the others in the litter, and people love to hear things like that

 

No matter what you lose a pet to, you're going to lose them eventually. It's the circle of life, plain and simple