A bite-can it be a one off?

[IvorHambitt]

First time grey owner here! Apologies for the long post but I'm a bit desperate...

We've had Ivor for 3 months and he has been an absolute star throughout. Friendly with dogs and strangers, a gentleman at the vets and can't get enough of cuddles with us. But today, he managed to get hold of an avocado stone and I panicked about him choking on it so tried to grab it out of his mouth. He growled and I ran to get some treats to distract him (hoping he would drop it) but before then my husband also tried to get hold of it and Ivor snarled and lunged at him, biting him in the arm. It almost broke this skin, but not quite. He then dropped the stone and I was able to call him into his crate. He quickly calmed down and seems to have forgotten the whole thing but it scared the life out of me. I'm trying to tell myself that he did everything right (growled to warn us, only snapped when we didnt back off) and I know it was our fault for panicking and crowding him. But I'm terrified it will happen again, or that somehow we're ruining him and will turn him into a 'problem' dog. I've had a few dogs before (not rescues, from puppies) and I've never had to deal with aggression, so I'm finding this really scary. Am I over reacting? Is it possible for this to be a one-off or is it a sign of a serious problem?

[ramonaghan]

Sounds like resource guarding, and you are correct that he did everything right--growling first and then snapping when you didn't respond to the growl. He's also shown excellent bite inhibition if he didn't even break the skin; he definitely could have done damage had he chosen to. I know firsthand that it's scary when it happens, but there's no reason to panic. Research "trading up"--basically the idea that you offer him something he wants more than whatever he's guarding. You should also work on the "drop it" command because there *will* be other times when he gets hold of something that's dangerous and you need to get it away from him. Take a deep breath and don't worry about turning him into a problem dog. Sounds like he's a great dog and you're just still on the learning curve...three months isn't long at all! Be patient with yourself and with him. You did well by not punishing him. 

[HeyRunDog]

8 hours ago, ramonaghan said:

Sounds like resource guarding, and you are correct that he did everything right--growling first and then snapping when you didn't respond to the growl. He's also shown excellent bite inhibition if he didn't even break the skin; he definitely could have done damage had he chosen to. I know firsthand that it's scary when it happens, but there's no reason to panic. Research "trading up"--basically the idea that you offer him something he wants more than whatever he's guarding. You should also work on the "drop it" command because there *will* be other times when he gets hold of something that's dangerous and you need to get it away from him. Take a deep breath and don't worry about turning him into a problem dog. Sounds like he's a great dog and you're just still on the learning curve...three months isn't long at all! Be patient with yourself and with him. You did well by not punishing him. 

I agree and getting something out of a dogs mouth especially when they think it's food is always going to cause a problem.

[MerseyGrey]

I agree too! We had to rescue a Terry’s chocolate orange from Buddy that someone had carelessly left around during our first Christmas with him. It was very scary and involved growling and snapping and even trying to trade up with some turkey wasn’t easy - Terry’s chocolate oranges are amazing after all. But he hasn’t really done it since, and we have had to extract other things from his mouth (mostly dead animal carcasses which he always manages to sniff out). It’s now almost 18 months after that incident and we don’t have a problem dog, he’s just your average greyhound (I want it so it’s mine) but not aggressive with it. Hopefully yours will turn out the same.

[IvorHambitt]

Thank you so much for the reassurance, it's really helped put my mind at ease. I'll have a look at trading up, and I think it was a timely reminder that we need to work on our basic obedience and manners as well. It's easy to forget that he is still a dog and we need to respect that, despite the fact that most of the time he's a big cuddle bug! 

[greysmom]

The first thing to do is change your mindset.  Just because a dog growls and snaps doesn't mean he's "aggressive."  Greyhounds - or any dog, really - are very rarely truly aggressive (attacking with intent to harm).  As pointed out, he was totally resource guardinig the pit and your husband got the escalated guarding response from your dog.  But it wasn't aggression.  It's just the way dogs communicate and we don't speak dog as well as dogs speak human.

You're not bad owners, and you're not ruining your dog or causing further problems.  Look into all the suggestions above and react differently next time!

[IvorHambitt]

Absolutely, I can see now that we reacted badly and ignored his signals, I was so freaked out about him choking on the pit that I got tunnel vision! Lesson learned, we need to stay calm in emergencies instead of making them worse. He's such a sweetheart usually that we totally took him for granted instead of paying attention to what he was telling us. I'm really glad to hear that its not as serious as it felt at the time, I think it gave us all a scare!

[IvorHambitt]

I'm sad to say we've had another bite. We've been working on Ivor's resource guarding and doing really well, so well that I got careless :-( He snapped at me as I refilled his bowl and connected, two punctures to my forearm that needed a trip to minor injuries last night. I fully understand that once again this was my fault, but I'm looking for advice on how to rebuild trust with him. And a bit of reassurance, has anyone else experienced this kind of bite? Does it mean we are the wrong home for him? We've already contacted a trainer who is confident we can work through the problem and that such a bite doesnt make Ivor a problem dog. I think I'm struggling with my confidence because I've always had dogs raised from puppies that I have never feared would bite. It seems like this is unrealistic and maybe I just haven't had experience of enough dogs! My husband has been walking and feeding Ivor since the bite and says he is his usual silly self. Although I also wanted to mention that we took him to the vet as a precaution and he does have a high temperature, he's on antibiotics and painkillers until going back for a check up next week. Same as me!

[MerseyGrey]

It sounds to me as though you are doing really well at working out what triggers Ivor to snap and you’re taking steps to mitigate that - in training for him and also amending your behaviour to reduce events that might cause him to snap. It’s a learning curve for you both, and having had him for four months, you are still finding out what his personality quirks are. This seems like a little setback and you already know that there was a reason for his behaviour, so you can add it to the list of things for you not to do. I think the training sessions you are going to have with him will help you rebuild your confidence in him, as well as his generally sweet nature, and maybe just being more mindful for the time being around food items that he can be possessive over. Don’t give up on him, or yourselves! You’re making progress. Good luck!

[DocsDoctor]

10 minutes ago, MerseyGrey said:

It sounds to me as though you are doing really well at working out what triggers Ivor to snap and you’re taking steps to mitigate that - in training for him and also amending your behaviour to reduce events that might cause him to snap. It’s a learning curve for you both, and having had him for four months, you are still finding out what his personality quirks are. This seems like a little setback and you already know that there was a reason for his behaviour, so you can add it to the list of things for you not to do. I think the training sessions you are going to have with him will help you rebuild your confidence in him, as well as his generally sweet nature, and maybe just being more mindful for the time being around food items that he can be possessive over. Don’t give up on him, or yourselves! You’re making progress. Good luck!

+1. My Tiger is a resource guarder and got returned to the rescue from his first time for biting while guarding his bed. I failed to read his body language properly and got bitten myself, a week in. Then again,  a month later, through carelessness on my part just like you - I was trying to get him up for a last loo break before bed, and should have made sure he was properly awake and/ or found him a treat first! Though both incidents felt scary at the time - these things happen so fast - I knew in both cases when I thought about it that it was really my own fault, and actually the second incident represented progress, truth to tell - having got to know me better he growled first and it was more of a snap than a bite.

I know that in his case a lot of it has to do with the fact that his first home was small and rather chaotic and noisy, and he got disturbed rather too often in his bed. As he relaxes into my quieter house we are becoming more trusting of, and affectionate towards, each other - he is happily lying on his bed beside me as I type this, with his nose about six inches from my feet - but all the same I need to remain aware of the need to remain respectful of his space.

[IvorHambitt]

Thank you both so much for your responses. What has worried me is that it feels like an escalation, with much less of a warning before snapping this time. Although I'm starting to doubt my memory now, I think there was a brief freeze but no growl and the bite caused punctures and bruising. I'm going to speak to his rescue about any guidance they have. I'm trying to keep in mind that both incidents were around food and were not out of the blue. I'm so worried that we're just not the right home for him :-( 

[NeylasMom]

4 hours ago, IvorHambitt said:

Thank you both so much for your responses. What has worried me is that it feels like an escalation, with much less of a warning before snapping this time. Although I'm starting to doubt my memory now, I think there was a brief freeze but no growl and the bite caused punctures and bruising. I'm going to speak to his rescue about any guidance they have. I'm trying to keep in mind that both incidents were around food and were not out of the blue. I'm so worried that we're just not the right home for him :-( 

You need the help of a qualified professional to talk about a training plan and how to manage the situation in the meantime. This is something you can address if everyone in the home is on board, but it will take time and in the meantime you need everyone to be safe, for his sake as well as yours. Can you email me? I can't PM at the moment. I'm a trainer and can offer you some resources depending on where you are located: jboydmorin @ gmail

[greysmom]

Our very first greyhound had very bad sleep startle.  We had read all the books and knew about the issue before we adopted her, so it's not like it was a surprise.  Both husband and I had had dogs before, together and separate - we weren't dog newbies, but fairly experienced owners.  And still, Libby managed to bite both of us multiple times, including drawing blood, before we retrained *ourselves* enough to not force her to respond that way.  It just takes time.

And in the meantime, you have to be conscious of your movements and actions when you're around your dog, and realize that he really can't control his responses in this regard.  It's all about building trust between you and four months is just a blip of time!   It took Libby years to finally be able to sleep on the bed with us - her favorite thing ever - and we still had to be careful of where her teeth were sleeping!

We've had several resource guarders over the years, and we have a resource guarder now - toys and treats are her triggers.  She's been here almost three years and we are still using "trading up" and other forms of distraction.  Oddly enough, she doesn't care a whit about her food bowl, high value treats and anything squeaky are sure to bring a growl and a snap if we try and remove them from her.

So you *can* manage resource guarding just fine at home, as long as you realize what YOU need to be aware of all the time.

The one caveat I would say would be if you had, or are planning to have, very young kids.  That's just an accident waiting to happen unless you are hyper vigilant at all times.  It's the main reason that many adoption groups will not adopt to people with kids under, say 5 years old.  It's just too dangerous for all invovlved.  

 

[sobesmom]

The honeymoon is over.  I firmly believe many new greys have a honeymoon period where they're perfect.  Because the're a bit shell-shocked, they act perfectly. 

Then they get comfortable, they feel safe, and their personality quirks come out.  The issues come out.  The stuff you read about before you adopted....but ....yours was perfect!!! ....but now not so perfect.  Been there, done, that.  I called my adoption agent in tears 2 months after adoption because my "PERFECT" grey was no longer perfect. He started to sleep startle and resource guard.  And she said "Yep - the honeymoon is over.  That means he's happy and comfortable, and now the work begins".

Do your research.  Do the work.  You CAN fix this.  Many people have issues on day 1.  But - t's not uncommon to only see them on day 30, 60, 90.  And that's OK.  You've done nothing wrong.  Greys are quirky.  Greys have issues.  But - greys are ADAPTABLE.  Greys can LEARN. 

You were lulled into a sense of ease, sorry.  I'll bet you were ready for this on day 1.  It's a huge let-down when it happens later.  I know.  But it's OK!  Re-set your mind.  Call this day 1 - and work through it!  

[IvorHambitt]

On 5/24/2020 at 6:33 AM, sobesmom said:

You were lulled into a sense of ease, sorry.  I'll bet you were ready for this on day 1.  It's a huge let-down when it happens later.  I know.  But it's OK!  Re-set your mind.  Call this day 1 - and work through it!  

This is so true! We fully understood that resource guarding and food in particular could be an issue when we were doing our research on adopting. We definitely got too comfortable too quickly, looking at what happened now on both occasions I think 'what was I thinking?! I KNOW not to do that with any dog' 

We are working with a trainer who is guiding us through some leave/drop exercises and we are hopeful that we can work around the issue. After speaking to the rescue centre we also realised that we had exacerbated the problem. Ivor was bolting his food so fast that he was choking and regurgitating so in an effort to slow him down we were feeding him a scoop at a time. It seems so obvious now that this only have stressed him out more and made him eat faster! 😳 

He gave me quite a scare and I still get the fear every once in a while but we're taking it one day at a time right now. I'm really hopeful that we can work on the issue and be the home that he needs, time will tell. Thanks again for all the advice, its such a help to hear from people who have overcome similar problems. I'll post some pics of him if I can figure out how to do it!

 

 

[IvorHambitt]

Here he is!

20200603_163542 by Zoe Hamill, on Flickr

20200603_163504 by Zoe Hamill, on Flickr

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by IvorHambitt