Dry Coughing/hacking

[Dbuzz]

This is a complicated one.

 

Issue 1: So our greyhound is turning 7 this April. Hes 80lbs and pretty lean and tall. About 6 or 7 months ago he started this weird cough. Started as just a few coughs around mealtime and when we let him out to the bathroom. Sort of just seemed more like a nuisance than anything. Gradually this culminated into a dry hacking afterword, like something in his throat. Hes been doing this for the past 3 months now with the hacking. This is on and off. Some days he doesnt do it. And some days he does. Some coughs are subtle, other hacking can be violent (whole body seems involved). I study this to the point that I feel like some animal behaviorist. There is no pattern to it. Can be any time, anywhere, any day. Nothing ever comes up. Just dry, and sometimes violent hacking. Our vet had given him something for bronchitis (antibiotic I believe?) and something for his esophagus. Cant remember if they worked during that time, but to this day he still coughs and hacks. Hes had a dental cleaning and did not need any extractions. His teeth are fine now and I dont think that has anything to do with this (something I suspected earlier).

 

Issue 2: About 3 months ago I woke up early in the morning to let him outside to the bathroom. I saw he went poo and looked like diarrhea. I went back upstairs and about 15 mins later he was back out again...diarrhea. Fast forward 12 hours and hes had about 7-8 dirrhea episodes, as well as a lot of peeing. To the point that he was peeing in the house (has NEVER done this before. Would sometimes hold it for up to 11 hours during th day). Took him to the vet, put him on wet royal canine food along with probiotic and he continued to have pretty bad inconsistent diarrhea for about 2 weeks after. I decided to take matters into my own hands and change his food to Orijen (still had diarrhea off and on) then finally to Zignature (venison). His stool seems fine now.

 

Present day: he still has the coughing every once and a while with hacking. His stool seems to be fine, but now hes really lethargic (still excited to go for a walk, still runs a bit outside, still eats and drinks a bunch of water- about 3 bowls a day) but otherwise is on the couch sleeping. He used to play with toys and follow us everywhere around the house. Weve had lots of blood work done, urine analysis, stool samples tested, X-rays taken, etc.. all come back completely fine. the vet has now referred us to internal medicine which will be in three weeks. Im not too optimistic as I hear many people sink thousands of dollars into this with no great results.

 

Has anyone had this experience? Ive read A LOT. Im almost positive its not heart disease, kidney disease, COPD, etc. he has no vomiting or diarrhea. He loves eating. No other symptoms other than tired (also licks his lips often but not smacking- more so seems like hes just getting comfortable. But he does it a lot) nothing comes up when he hacks. I suspect this is some allergy but why is he so tired? Possibly the food? Its grain free etc.. not sure if that zaps his energy??? Nausea? (We have him on Pepcid AC. Just started today. No progress yet)

[cleptogrey]

I would ask about l.p.largenhyal paralysis. Does the hacking subside in a colder environment, stoked up air conditioning and watch. L P. Is exasperated by heat and heavy exercise. I had a dog with LP who lived to 15, no surgery just keeping him chilled! Let's hope for a simple solution.

Edited March 24, 2018 by cleptogrey

[greysmom]

I would definitely ask about laryngeal paralysis. The coughing will get worse if he's tired, or very anxious, and might seem like he has trouble catching his breath. It can also make eating difficult.

 

But it probably isn't connected to the diarrhea incidents. That sounds like he maybe got a virus or giardia or something. He could also have developed a food sensitivity, or his old food could have had something wrong with it or changed their formula.

 

I also wouldn't rule out a heart issue as coughing is one indicator that something maybe happening there. Effusion into the chest cavity or lungs, or a heart murmur. Greyhound hearts are enormous compared to other dogs their size and they are often diagnosed with low grade heart murmurs. Most don't need any treatment, but some end up being on a simple treatment that helps immensely.

 

Good luck and keep us updated.

[LaFlaca]

My 11 year-old, Wendy, went through similar bouts of coughing, a high fever of unspecified origin, and just generally being 'off '. She sounded like she was hacking up a hair-ball. It turned out to be her heart even though all tests came back normal. Hope your boy gets better!

[cleptogrey]

btw, an old fashioned remedy that you just might try- it won't do any harm- is a medicine dropper or 1 or 2 tablespoons of lemon juice down the hatch. it clears of phlegm and often cuts the cough instantly. my old vet who bred short nosed dogs- bull, boxer and franch bull dogs told me about it. it works instantly and if it doesn't they just get a tad more vitamin c. i used bottled lemon for this.

[TheFullHouse]

Might be worth getting x-rays of his throat. I lost my Joey to a tumor in his throat. The only symptom was a cough that wouldn’t go away. We treated him for allergies, ruled out any heart problems did x-rays and saw nothing. Finally after several weeks and no improvement the vet did more x-rays and there it was, big enough to see but it took months. Might be worth having your pup scoped.

[chocolatehunny]

Just wanted to jump in to say you’re not along with this. Eddie does the same. I can’t offer advice though as we’re not sure what it is either but it’s exactly how you describe it. Eddie is 12 and half though so we’re very reluctant to start running to the vets all the time with him because he gets very worked up about going and being there and out Vet won’t come to the house, only for euthanasia. (I live in the uk).

I have noticed Eddie is worse in the heat, to the point where I think he’s going to collapse. His back end goes weak too which is linked to LP also as I know they don’t get enough oxygen to the limbs. What can actually be done about Lp other than the tie back surgery?

And would LP not show up when they have dentals as they have to intubate them?

 

Lisa x

[Dbuzz]

So with L.P., I suppose he has some of those symptoms. I don't seem to see any connections between the temperature and his coughing. We've had a brutal winter here thus far and he still seems to cough. We keep the temperature at about 68 or so in the house (a drafty, cool 68 in the winter). He also doesn't seem to have difficulty breathing. The only connection I make there is that if he does get excited and runs outside the cough seems to happen. Sometimes a few coughs and then he's fine. No hacking. However it doesn't ALWAYS happen, AND he still coughs when he's been napping for hours (no running at all that day).

 

The vet did mention at one point in time (2 years ago) that he had a very subtle heart murmur though our other current vet was very puzzled to hear that. They didn't hear one at all every time we've been there. In the X-Rays we've taken there have been no signs of anything - not even a comment to say "well you may want to keep an eye on that". The vet has always said "your dog is perfectly healthy according to the X-Ray" (same thing with the dental cleaning, stool samples, blood work, etc..)

 

No fever or any other symptoms linked to the cough other than that it's inconsistent (at least very hard for me to try to see a pattern). I have also started to give him just a bit of honey twice a day. He coughed a bit yesterday (literally three coughs) followed by a subtle hack - almost just an aggressive groan. I'm brushing his teeth more often as I know the extra sugar probably isn't great for his teeth. But I've heard honey can help with immune system and help to sooth throat??? Not too committed to this but thought I'd give it a try.

 

I think I can disassociate the GI issues as he seems to be completely fine with that - eating, drinking, and relieving himself normally. Which is a small step forward in light of all of the other things he's been dealing with the past few months.

 

At any rate, thank you everyone for your posts/sympathy/tips/advice. Helps to throw these ideas out to some kind of community that understands. Our vet seems to be getting tired of my phone calls and 'DIY analysis' but when you spend two thousand dollars on vet visits and tests without any diagnoses or answers, you tend to get paranoid. Wish they'd understand that more.

[cleptogrey]

i don't know if dogs react the same way human can with GERD. but i had a hacking cough for years. at one point it was really bad, i was on antibiotics at one point and at another point i was given a script for an inhaler. finally i said to my primary care physician that i thought it was time to see an ENT dr. low and behold....i have acid reflux and the cough was a result of it! with in 2 days of being on a PPI the cough went away! Pecid AC seems to be the choice drug for dogs who might have acid reflux. feeling adventurous? it may take a week to see it subside if that's the case. i was put on some rather strong meds since i had erosion as well. GOOD LUCK!!!

 

btw, where are you located? in lower westchester county there is a site for vets continuing ed and they do echocardiograms on a regular basis. the hitch is location, timing and 12 vets all get turns to practice on your dog. the last time i did it they did not sedate the pups which was fine but mine gave up after 2 hrs. generally it's a 4 hr commitment.

[Remolacha]

One of my dogs has this occasional coughing. I havent been able to tie it to any pattern, pretty sure it is not LP. She just starts hacking, like that smokers cough that some heavy smokers get. I can guarantee she doesnt smoke The only thing I have been able to come up with is sometimes I cough like I am hacking up a lung when my allergies are bad and her cough sounds similar. She has had this since I got her 2.5 years ago. She was 7 then. It hasnt gone away, but it hasnt gotten worse, and it doesnt happen too often or last very long, she has been checked by my vet (often) so I just watch her for changes. I hadnt thought about honey, I do have some manuka honey, I might try that.

 

Forgot to add, there may not be any allergens where you are in the winter, but indoor air in the winter is so dry most places it can also cause problems.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Remolacha

[tbhounds]

Run a fecal analysis-want to rule out parasites (lung worm for example).

[XTRAWLD]

Any lip licking? Lots of swallowing? Could it be a lot of acid reflux?

Edited March 27, 2018 by XTRAWLD

[schnookums]

Well................ my Blue has partial LP coming up 5 years in April. His coughing (whole body violent coughing as well after a drink) and lethargy was worrisome, so I took him to a very good veterinary practice, where with the process of elimination, finally showed from a scope that LP was the culprit. We have had the "cough cough hack." Winter wood fires make him hack. Too much panting inflames his larynx. That's when he lick smacks. We try to keep him cool all the time. I am talking no hotter than 20deg C You mention that he coughs anticipating meal times. Blue coughs when he anticipates food, I think it is the saliva flow getting into his windpipe. Blue used to cough at night, I suspected gastric reflux causing once again fluids leaking into his windpipe. He always "hacks" after he has a drink of water.

Due to other issues, blue is now on acid reflux tabs once a day. We haven't had as many night coughs since. I hope you can get to the bottom of your Boys problem and this information is useful to you. Will be watching your progress. By the way "what is your boy's name please?"

[Dbuzz]

Thanks for the comments.

 

Just today he let out some pretty awful coughs/hacks. Just randomly sitting there. No running today. Hours after his walk (no pulling on leash or anything). Last meal was hours before this. About 55 degrees F outside today with a lot of rain/humidity.

 

So I think I need to revisit his test history and visits to see what tests we did exactly to see what has been ruled out and what's still in play. I know that a few blood tests have been done, urine analysis, stool sample, and xrays. If he had LP wouldn't an Xray show that? This seems to be closest to his symptoms but it still just doesn't seem serious enough for this diagnosis. How do they diagnose LP? Sounds like a scope.

 

I gave him pepcid AC for a few days but he still managed to cough and the licking/lethargy still seemed to persist so I stopped after about 3 days. Not sure if I should start back up again. How long does it take for pepcid ac to work?

I'm also reading some things about storage/dust mites? though I don't seem to find any skin issues with him. He does tend to favor his one ear time to time and 'flap' his ears but I know that this is pretty normal for dogs/greyhounds. He occasionally licks his groin but it's maybe once a day/every other day and barely a lick sometimes. Again usually around meal time so not sure if this is just routine/habit. At one point we did notice some faint pink spots on his inner thighs but they went away the next day and we haven't seen any since. Could be the dry air inside.

 

Wondering if another fecal analysis needs done but I know we just did that in January and came back negative. (coughing started TECHNICALLY last July).

 

It doesn't seem to get any worse, per se, but man, it's hard to see his whole body trying to hack something up. It's usually *cough*...*cough*....*small hack*.....*cough*....*cough*....larger hack. I really expect like a living animal to jump out of his throat when he does this. I can't explain it. It's really awful to see/hear.

 

Counting down to the internal medicine appointment. I'll be sure to have everything prepared/ready since I've had to wait 4 weeks for this appt (we're in pittsburgh, pa--apparently there are only 2 internal medicine specialists in this area. Very frustrating)

 

His name is Kriss by the way (racing name was Mulberry Kriss)

[schnookums]

Please consider a scope for Kriss. Humidity is shocking for this condition. We have our split system cooling going almost continually for Blue. X-rays will not show if your boy has LP. A larynx has two gate like flaps that shut off the wind pipe when swallowing. This allows food/water to go down the oesophagus (food pipe) but not the trachea (air pipe). When one becomes paralysed, it dangles, doesn't work, allowing water, saliva into the airway. Hence a cough, then a hack, and an inflamed throat. Imagine having something stuck in your throat dangling that you can't clear. Have you ever inhaled food or water? How much do you cough? If the paralysis is total, both gates are useless. The only space for breathing or swallowing is a tiny slit. Imagine how that feels. A scope is done under a general anaesthetic. ( Don't know if you are comfortable about anaesthesia.) Whilst a dog is breathing, the Vet can see how the larynx is working.

The coughing you describe is just like Blue's was.

xxx

[Dbuzz]

Update:
So we've taken him to the internal medicine specialist. After doing an ultrasound in addition to a blood panel, they found that he has low levels of folate and cobalamin (Vitamin b12). Their suggestion was to do an endoscope to 1. Rule out cancer and 2. Definitively find out what the issue was, however they also admitted that his case was likely not cancer (no other symptoms other than loss of weight and tiredness). Their preliminary diagnosis (without the endoscope) was IBD so we decided to go ahead with the steroid treatment.

We were reluctant to do the usual path with steroids: aggressive at first then weened off. We were also concerned with all of the side effects. WE decided to put him on Budesonide (supposedly did not have the side effects) as well as the oral vitamin b12 (Cobalequin).

 

After a week I noticed he really seemed to be looking quite thin so took him in to get weighed. Low and behold he was a mere 75.5 lbs (down about 6 lbs from racing weight). About 4-5 lbs loss in about a two week period. This had me concerned so I called the internal medicine and they then prescribed Prednisone on top of the Budesonide and Cobalequin.

Today:
He's now taking 2.5 mg of Budesonide (once daily-separate from Prednisone)

Oral B12

20 mg of prednisone (once daily)

Symptoms: Cough is gone. Weight loss seems to persist.

 

Starting to get concerned about the weight loss. Does anyone suspect that we could be dealing with cancer? We haven't had him wormed/checked for parasites in about two months. I highly doubt that's the issue though maybe? We have him on a grain free Zignature Lamb food feeding him about 3.5 cups a day (about 1600 k/cals). No other symptoms: eats fine, poops fine, drinks more (because of steroids) but no vomiting, blood of any sort and no swelling of anything. Perfectly normal dog.

Anyone have any suggestions. Certainly happy the cough went away but now we're dealt with a dog with perfectly normal behavior. perfect stools, perfect appetite but seems to continue to lose weight!

 

Paranoia is rampant at this point.

[XTRAWLD]

Pred can cause dogs to drink a lot and gain weight. My boy was on it for a long time and did neither, mind you he wasn't a big eater and he didn't lose much either. I'm unfamiliar with Budesonide, or the B12, or how these all might interact with eachother. How much exercise is he getting (enough to offset the food intake)?

[Dbuzz]

Pred can cause dogs to drink a lot and gain weight. My boy was on it for a long time and did neither, mind you he wasn't a big eater and he didn't lose much either. I'm unfamiliar with Budesonide, or the B12, or how these all might interact with eachother. How much exercise is he getting (enough to offset the food intake)?

 

I wish! He's a couch potato. We usually walk him once a day, no more than 20 mins. No runs, jogs.

[macoduck]

What can actually be done about Lp other than the tie back surgery?
And would LP not show up when they have dentals as they have to intubate them?

 

Chocolatebunny:

No LP was seen during my 12 year old's dental. A few months later he developed it. We treated him with Doxepin (off label use).

[tbhounds]

Pred can cause dogs to drink a lot and gain weight. My boy was on it for a long time and did neither, mind you he wasn't a big eater and he didn't lose much either. I'm unfamiliar with Budesonide, or the B12, or how these all might interact with eachother. How much exercise is he getting (enough to offset the food intake)?

In my experience gh’s drop weight (muscle mass) like a stone while on pred. Systemic side effects are typically much much lower with budesonide.

Forgive me but, did you say you did check rads already? I’ve never heard of a dog coughing from ibd.

What can actually be done about Lp other than the tie back surgery?

And would LP not show up when they have dentals as they have to intubate them?

 

Chocolatebunny:

No LP was seen during my 12 year old's dental. A few months later he developed it. We treated him with Doxepin (off label use).

Ok-a bit off track here but, gotta ask-who intubated your dog? Often it’s the techs job-if he or she wasn’t being careful it could be missed. Also, if propofol was used it could have been your dog wasn’t taking breaths at the time.

[Fruitycake]

When our Allie was on prednisone for 6 months she seriously lost weight. Her muscles wasted away and the dog who could jump to ledges 4 feet high could no longer jump intp the back of the car or onto the couch. I would never expect a dog on pred to gain weight, no matter how much water they drank. (Al also drank what seemed like gallons of water per day and had to go out at least every two hours or had accidents in the house. Keeping enough water available for Monty and yet limiting her intake was difficult, and I was the one taking Al out multiple times per night. It was he!! for everyone.) Definitely discuss side effects of prednisone with your vet, and know the anticipated length of time he'll be on it - which can mean more or less of the side effects impact your lives.

 

(I, myself, will never use prednisone long term ever, EVER again. And will look for any alternatives before trying it even short term. Your mileage may vary.)

[macoduck]

Ok-a bit off track here but, gotta ask-who intubated your dog? Often it’s the techs job-if he or she wasn’t being careful it could be missed. Also, if propofol was used it could have been your dog wasn’t taking breaths at the time.

Good question, Tracy. It's been a few years since that happened. Vet was the one who said she had not seen any signs of LP during that dental, plus my boy didn't have any breathing problems. I don't often go to that vet anymore for surgical procedures but I'll ask about who intubates next time I see her. I didn't keep his records after he died but I do remember she'd used propofol on my dogs in the past. His LP/breathing difficulty began 2 months after that dental.

[Dbuzz]

Regarding the muscle mass weight loss - that seems to make sense here. So is there eventually a danger in losing too much? Do they bounce back? Now we're at roughly 10% weight loss I'd say, which is really getting to the point of concern. How long can they maintain this type of quality of life? Also with IBD I know that the cobalamin receptors that are supposed to capture nutrients are wiped out as a result of IBD. Would he do better on a Cobalamin injection perhaps vs the oral Cobalequin?

 

Regarding the coughing from IBD, agreed. I doubt the two symptoms are caused by the same thing though at this point I'm much more concerned about the weight loss than the cough. Now especially since the cough is gone. Are there other causes of the cough that could have an impact on weight loss?

 

Again, symptom-wise dog is the healthiest there is- stools perfect, no vomiting, appetite incredible, Just weight loss and lethargy. I am starting to think there is a dietary issue at play. I noticed his change in weight loss/lethargy first after his bad episode of diarrhea and when we switched foods from Purina One Focus to Zignature Venison (now lamb) (also using a bland boiled chicken/rice diet in the interim between the diarrhea and the switched food).

[tbhounds]

I would be very suspicious of your dog not having ibd.

[NeylasMom]

I would be very suspicious of your dog not having ibd.

This is my thought too. I don't understand how you got from coughing to an IBD diagnosis. Did the internal medicine folks say if the vitamin levels were just mildly low or deficiencies that could cause problems? Other possible causes than IBD? Being low in B vitamins could cause tiredness I would guess.

 

Honestly, my initial thought was LP, heart issue, or allergies. And steroids would I believe treat an allergy issue, so that could be why the coughing has gone away. Were heart issues covered? Has he had an echo?

 

If it were me, I'd get him off the steroids and put him on a trial of Apoquel and see if his symptoms resolve. Of course I'd hate to say that if something more serious is going on, but seems the steroids are doing more harm than good.

Edited May 2, 2018 by NeylasMom