Truman... Super Frustrating, Embarrassing Behavior

[a_daerr]

Here's a little bit of background on Truman, my 2.5-year-old AKC greyhound. We've had him since puppyhood. He came home at 15-weeks-old (so not a teeny baby, but still very young). Since then, he's been trained and socialized on a regular, structured basis. For the first two years of his life, I continuously had him in obedience classes. At home, he's a sweet and happy dog, but he doesn't do well in high-stress situations or when his schedule is interrupted. He's always been what I call "nervy," but his anxiety seemed to hit an all-time high in the last year.

 

A large part of his anxiety is leash-related. He's either too excited with other dogs (jumping, pulling, barking), or too frightened (snapping, growling, baring teeth). Although we've continued doing positive reinforcement training with him, he gets very stressed on-leash to the point that he refuses treats. For the record, I've tried an assortment of high-value (people food) treats. He'll take the treat in his mouth, then spit them back out. We stopped doing obedience classes after I felt he was no longer getting positive experiences. Almost every class would result in an above-threshold growling and snapping incident. On walks, I have to keep a fair distance between him and other dogs. The only thing I've had success with in breaking his focus is the "hurry, hurry, hurry!" command. When we see another dog coming toward us, we pretty much just run in the other direction to avoid an incident. I should also mention that it's not every dog (or every type of dog) that causes him stress. With certain dogs, he's fine. With others, he's immediately tense. With others still, he'll decide he likes them one minute (will play and act fine), then he unpredictably changes his mind and snaps.

 

I say all this because I want whoever's reading to know that I really did everything by-the-book with Truman. But after two years, seven obedience classes, and a combination of medication and training, I'm ready to accept that this is just the way he is. I really feel that Truman's behavior and anxiety is an ingrained part of him, like autism in people, or spookiness in dogs. I can try to manage it, but I don't believe he can be "fixed."

 

The most frustrating thing I'm dealing with is that Truman is hard to handle at large greyhound events, like GIG and Gettysburg, where there are A LOT of unfamiliar dogs in one place. Even though he's a greyhound, he acts very un-greyhound-like. I do feel the need to muzzle him for his safety and the safety of other dogs, even though I do feel like the muzzle generates more anxiety. The other frustrating part is that he does not settle- if we're at an activity that requires waiting or standing around, he starts pacing and pulling the leash. It's very embarrassing, and it makes me wonder if people are judging me and my ability to train him. I've had people ask, "Is he brand new?" and they're shocked to find out that we've had him for years! It feels super frustrating to be the person with the mean dog who lacks training.

 

It's a dilemma, because my other dog LOVES events. It's also something I enjoy, and I feel like it's an enriching experience for both of us. Last month for Sandy Paws, I tried leaving Truman at home and taking just Henry. But that's no good either, because Truman has separation anxiety from us. At home, he still exhibits high stress behaviors like destructiveness, depression, and moping. I just don't know what to do! I'm not sure if I'm asking for help, as much as I just need to vent about things. I love Truman, but sometimes it sucks having a special needs dog.

[greysmom]

Do you still have him on anti-anxiety drugs? Perhaps these need some tweaking?

 

Might be time to consider consulting with a professional behaviorist. Someone who can come into your home and observe him, and offer a new perspective.

 

for Trumie

[Guest DeniseL]

Ugh. I know how you feel. You see me with Izzy. Fortunately, Izzy has improved significantly over the last year and was even able to sit in the large group of Galgos for 5 minutes while we took a picture at GIG. Basically, I just feed her treats like a maniac anytime a dog gets close or she is in an uncomfortable situation. I use it more of a distraction than positive reinforcement, but I guess she realizes that when she is in a high stress situation, she gets constant treats.

 

It was hard to see all the Galgos hanging out together, having fun, relaxing, and izzy is not able to do that. Frustrating and yes, a little embarrassing when she reacts.

 

I know you have tried everything with Truman. I have no other suggestions, really. I'm sorry. Just know that I empathize. It's hard when you love greyhound events but your greyhound doesn't....

[kudzu]

You have my sympathies. Had some of those troubles with my Stellaluna when she went through adolescence. Thankfully it wasn't as bad as your description of Truman & her most rewarding thing was training so that got us through the worst of it. Am not doubting that you've done a ton of work & tried all you can think of but I just have to ask anyway. Have you tried things like BAT or some of the Control Unleashed games like maybe Look at That?

 

BAT website http://empoweredanimals.com/

CU http://www.controlunleashed.net/index.html

 

ETA: I am not implying those would solve your problems. It was just be like a few extra tools to limit or tone done the reactiveness. And I'm not saying working on those would be easy.

Edited April 28, 2014 by kudzu

[rascalsmom]

Is there anyone you'd feel comfortable leaving him with? Maybe another greyhound person, whom he knows, and he knows their dogs? If he is so uncomfortable at events, I wouldn't take him. I don't really feel it's fair to the dog if they get stressed out at events, but you force them to go. I realize you want to attend in order to sell your wares, so it's a tricky situation. And since you're vending, he's forced to be 'in the thick of things'.

 

We went to GIG three or four times, and to Dewey six times, and while she wasn't 'reactive' like Truman, Ruby did not enjoy events. She was a homebody and would rather stay home. After a few events--even though we still went--we did not do a lot of socializing; it was more a relaxation weekend, with the dogs, for DH and I. Ruby was able to enjoy hanging out in the hotel with us, but the minute we put the dog beds into the van to come home, she showed her first signs of happiness. Eventually we just quit going.

[Remolacha]

I understand your frustration! I feel that there are some dogs that are just, high strung? nervy? I don't know exactly the word, but they are easily stressed and act out, no matter what training and socializing you have done, and I know you have tried everything with Truman. I think they are sort of like spooks, in that the behavior is just part of them. You can learn to manage it, and sometimes make it better, but it isn't something that can be trained out of them. My heart dog, Fletcher, was very like Truman, and there are many things I just stopped doing with him. It wasn't always easy, but I loved him so much and miss him every day, although there is no question my "dog life" is easier now.

[NeylasMom]

Do you still have him on anti-anxiety drugs? Perhaps these need some tweaking?

 

Might be time to consider consulting with a professional behaviorist. Someone who can come into your home and observe him, and offer a new perspective.

 

for Trumie

These are my thoughts. Also, I don't know what's available in Pgh, but if you could find a good reactive rover class of some sort that utilizes both classical counter-conditioning and operant training I think that would really help you. I can ask around to see if the folks on the trainer board I'm on know of one in your area if you're interested.

 

If there isn't, another option would be doing a 3 day workshop at Peaceable Paws in Hagerstown. There is affordable dog friendly lodging nearby and unlike an obedience class, the entire focus would be on helping you build skills to deal with his reactivity, as well as having set ups with other dogs that are very controlled so you can make progress without him going over threshold. Pat Miller runs the workshops herself and I've been through one with my ex's reactive dog and it's really amazing how much the dogs improve by the end of the weekend. Here's her website if you want to check it out - the workshops aren't cheap, FYI, but they are worth their weight in gold:

http://www.peaceablepaws.com/classes.php?type=workshop

Looks like the next workshop is in November.

[MaryJane]

Not all dogs can be easily trained not to react. It sounds like your dog is not going to be easy, maybe the right word would be very difficult and maybe impossible. I might suggest going back to the point where he is comfortable and does not exhibit the behavior and then take baby steps. For example, take him out to your driveway and just stand there for 10 minutes and do this for a few days. Then have a friend with a dog walk up to you slowly but, carefully observe when the not desirable behavior starts and stop the friend from coming closer. You can now do this every day and try and get your friend closer and closer by working with distraction techniques with Truman. You can then try moving towards the other person instead and see when Truman starts the undesirable behavior.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of doing treats, I'd rather use my voice and praise which has always worked wonders with my dogs but, use whatever works with you.

 

This is a very long process but you should be able to see very small improvements over time.

[cleptogrey]

he's still an adolescent, believe it or not. unfortunately he's letting his bad manners get the best of both you and him. i would do a couple of things, and this is coming from the mouth of another non-track greyhound owner who has reacted in a similar manner at times. trust me, they really know how to push your buttons.

 

talk to the trainers who you worked with and maybe consider a basic basic class where you can focus on only social skills with out treats. yup, no treats, just verbal praise that's limited. i did have to go thru this w/ my old welsh terrier at age 11 when he was attacked by another dog and became aggressive. truman is most likely insecure, felix and willie wonka(the welsh) showed aggression when intimidated and insecure. with willie we worked on him just focusing on me, listening to commands and getting it straight- lots of walking past other dogs, owners shaking hands, down/sit stays next to other dogs, circling around them, the dogs circling around willie, figure 8s around willie. when i walked him it was a down stay as soon as i felt the aggression/fear traveling up the leash or out his tail- his barometer of how he felt.

 

with felix i get some ridiculous antics at time, i quietly tell him to knock it off in a deep low serious tone. i have kneed him in the side or rear when he doesn't knock it off, he figures it out. the kneeing is not hard- i'm short, how strong can my knock w/ a knee be? i never use a foot but i have taken a finger and poked him. a short, poke- it got his attention and he was more focused on me rather than the other dog.

 

i know a lot of people might be cringing reading that i have poked my dog, it's just to refocus him and it works. if you are waiting to capture the action you want and reward it then there is no way to immediately get out of an unwanted behavior. in my neck of the woods there are way too many pit bulls walking about and the last thing i want is boisterous felix yelling at them. i'm sure that's what truman does and it's totally out of line.

 

other than muzzling or crating him i also will suggest that you up his exercise(not just a walk, a game of soccer or heavy running) before an event or outing. a tired dog is a good dog (same w/ kids imho). if he was pretty exhausted prior to an event his energy will have been spent. between 2.5 and 3.5 yrs of age felix was at his prime both in power and speed. lots of energy that could be directed into the run. it's sad, he's 7 and a pretty normal dog now...how time flies when you are having fun.

 

exercise

revisit obedience

don't tolerate what you don't want

remember his brain is still developing and he can and WILL be reprogramed. it's been a hard year dealing w/ your injury and henry.

[a_daerr]

These are my thoughts. Also, I don't know what's available in Pgh, but if you could find a good reactive rover class of some sort that utilizes both classical counter-conditioning and operant training I think that would really help you. I can ask around to see if the folks on the trainer board I'm on know of one in your area if you're interested.

 

If there isn't, another option would be doing a 3 day workshop at Peaceable Paws in Hagerstown. There is affordable dog friendly lodging nearby and unlike an obedience class, the entire focus would be on helping you build skills to deal with his reactivity, as well as having set ups with other dogs that are very controlled so you can make progress without him going over threshold. Pat Miller runs the workshops herself and I've been through one with my ex's reactive dog and it's really amazing how much the dogs improve by the end of the weekend. Here's her website if you want to check it out - the workshops aren't cheap, FYI, but they are worth their weight in gold:

http://www.peaceablepaws.com/classes.php?type=workshop

Looks like the next workshop is in November.

Yes! This is all great info. I'd be willing to do any class/seminar that's within reasonable driving distance. Also, I do think his meds probably need tweaking. He gets 40 mg Prozac and a low dose Valium for very stressful situations. Problem is, I can't find a specialist in the Pittsburgh area, and our regular vet isn't really an expert in behavioral mod drugs. The Prozac did eliminate his compulsive licking, but everything else is pretty much the same. He also cannot tolerate Xanax or Ace- he gets a total opposite reaction. Could you recommend anyone that's close to me who could help with the med situation? If you can cross-post thus with your trainer colleagues, that would be helpful as well.

 

I should also mention that Truman's anxiety isn't just dog-related. We're unable to touch him in certain ways (i.e. he growls and snaps if any part of his side/belly is touched). He cannot be easily restrained. He freaks out if your feet touch him. He's overly friendly with some people, but scared to death of others. He has A LOT of strange hang-ups. All of this stuff combined does make me believe that, either genetically or inherently, he is an anxious dog by nature. I strongly believe it's (at least in part) the result of over-breeding and in-breeding in AKC lines, but... I digress, that's another topic for another day.

 

Thanks everyone for your stories and tips. Truman is a good boy, and I love him so much. He makes me laugh all the time. I just get frustrated, and I want to do right by him.

[a_daerr]

ETA: Jen, the only Reactive Rover I could find near us is the GROWL class at a place called Misty Pines. I've heard some bad reviews that the head trainer uses shock collars on the dogs' necks and genitals. They also do a dog boot camp where you send your dog away for a week to be trained. I don't believe in that stuff. Looks like I'm out of luck unless I can find something similar. I'll look into the Peaceful Paws weekend.

 

Also, are you going to Grapehounds VA? Any chance you'd want to evaluate him?

[NeylasMom]

I'll ask on my list and see if I can come up with anyone who might be able to help you. Have you searched for veterinary behaviorists in your area? There should be a website where you can search by state. Also pricey, but your best option when playing with meds. You could try Anxitane in the meantime. It would be safe to add to his current regimen and falls into the can't hurt, might help category. It's really helped Violet who can get anxious and is also easily aroused. It also allowed a friend of me to wean his dog off of Prozac, which he was taking for aggression issues. Anxitane itself is pricey, but you can buy human l-theanine supplements for very little money. Violet takes 100 mg 2x/day, which would be the appropriate dose for Truman.

 

I should be at Grapehounds, but don't know when yet. I am not sure how much help I can be, but we might be able to work something out. Let's see where you're at when it's a little closer.

 

I'm curious about the handling issues since you've had him from when he was a puppy. When he was very young (under 6 mos old) did you guys handle him a lot? Hold him in your arms or lap, etc., including at times when he would have been excited or more energetic (ie. outside of when he was napping)? How did he react to handling then?

[krissy]

I'm curious about the handling issues since you've had him from when he was a puppy. When he was very young (under 6 mos old) did you guys handle him a lot? Hold him in your arms or lap, etc., including at times when he would have been excited or more energetic (ie. outside of when he was napping)? How did he react to handling then?

I don't know Truman personally but it might be adolescence or an inherent part of his personality because Kili is the same way. She came home at 8 weeks and every day we worked on handling. She also had tons of medical problems and was having something done almost weekly. And she handled it all like a champ (with treats of course). She did her first conformation show at 6 months and was amazing for letting me stack her and letting the judge examine her.

 

Then everything fell apart. After 3 more conformation shows I basically gave up. At shows she would get overwhelmed. She wouldn't let me stack her, wouldn't let the judges touch her. She went through a phase where I had to counter condition her from the beginning to allow me to trim her nails (something she'd had done twice weekly since she was 8 weeks old). At her annual vaccines she flipped her lid when I gave her vaccines and took her blood. Shortly after that she injured a leg and I ended up having to knock her out in order to take x-rays.

 

She is the biggest drama queen. And not for lack of handling training. She hit adolescence and suddenly every little thing was the end of the world. She is improving with age and continued work, but I do believe some of it is just part of her personality.

 

That may have nothing to do with Truman, but I thought I'd offer my experience. If nothing else, Alicia, know that you are not alone in this!

 

ETA: Spelling. Apparently my phone does not understand that conformation is a word. My pet peeve is when people say confirmation. Darn phone making me into one of those people! Lol

Edited April 28, 2014 by krissy

[greysmom]

Then everything fell apart. After 3 more conformation shows I basically gave up. At shows she would get overwhelmed. She wouldn't let me stack her, wouldn't let the judges touch her. She went through a phase where I had to counter condition her from the beginning to allow me to trim her nails (something she'd had done twice weekly since she was 8 weeks old). At her annual vaccines she flipped her lid when I gave her vaccines and took her blood. Shortly after that she injured a leg and I ended up having to knock her out in order to take x-rays.

 

She is the biggest drama queen. And not for lack of handling training. She hit adolescence and suddenly every little thing was the end of the world.

 

 

Lilly came to us at 11 weeks old, and we handled her nearly 24/7 right from the beginning. But at about 6 or 7 months, she hit a wall and started absolutely freaking out when I would try and trim her nails - something I'd been doing since she came home at least once a week, since she has scimitars on the ends of her toes and was constantly getting sliced. And it was completely out-of-control freaking out - screaming, crying, biting, fighting me or whoever was holding her, wiggling away, and basically doing whatever she could. We tried everything, even having DH pick her up off the floor. She almost broke her leg jumping out of his arms.

 

I finally took her in to the vet so they could sedate her and trim them. The little poophead just STOOD there in the office, and let our very nice and understanding vet clip her nails! I don't know what happened or what changed, but she's been OK ever since.

 

She also has gone through a couple of phases where different things scare her. Fortunately, she's not a fear biter or leash reactive, and she seems to have outgrown them. But it sounds like Truman has gotten "stuck" in a fear phase. Whether it's behavioral or genetic or chemical. It doesn't sound like the prozac is doing a good enough job and you might need to try a different drug, or a different class of anti-anxiety drug.

 

A certified veterinary behaviorist should be able to prescribe appropriate medications, as well as give you some training advice. I wish Giselle was still on the board (she said in a post she was taking an extended break) as she always had good advice for leash reactivity. You might try PMing her and see if she has any recommendations for someone in your area.

[a_daerr]

Yes! We handled him everyday since puppyhood. We did 'puppy torture time' where we'd pull his tail, give a treat, touch his feet, give a treat, look in his ears, give a treat, etc. Like I said, it's not the 'typical' handling issues. It's his belly and sides. Also, if your hand is moving, it's okay. But if your hand stops, it results in an immediate growl. My guess is that it's a fear of being restrained? Definitely not space issues, because he's VERY cuddly. Wants to be on top of you, with his face on top of your face.

 

His anxiety didn't start manifesting until maybe a year ago. He was a really rambunctious puppy, and extremely high energy. But he hit a weird fear stage around 18 months, and it's gradually gotten worse. I didn't start noticing the leash reactivity until Grapehounds last year, which would've been the end of July (he was 23 months then).

 

ETA: I take that back. DBF reminded me that he did have some snarky episodes at GIG last year at the reception. He was 20 months then.

Edited April 28, 2014 by a_daerr

[Brandiandwe]

I don't have any real advice, but I noticed that my two girls seemed to start growing brains after they turned three. Reactivity decreased, prey drive became more manageable, and trainability increased. Maybe you'll need to ride it out?

[cleptogrey]

the crazy antics w/ nail trimming and vetting seem to be all too common- been there. it takes persistence/patience and poise to get over that hump. a muzzle and a fearless handler helping worked here.at one point i resorted to a good sized but kind male groomer- piss all over the grooming table- felix was just freaking out. then i said, i'm going to figure this out myself. i've had my glasses knocked off and a good bang w/ the muzzle- bucking bronco w/ dremeling here. finally i can use the nail clippers again and felix has learned that he is in a down position, head turned away and i work away. at the vet we found out that it helps to have a couple of people talking while he is handled and examined and he's fine. i've worked really hard, i can't believe that we have been able to inject itchamol into a puncture on a toe and massage it out and reinject it at the vet's office and then i had to fill the puncture w/ the ointment daily for a week. trust me, it was a lot of hard work, but felix can now be handled and worked on. at one point he couldn't but he needed to get things done. it was all common sense, being fast, just doing it.

 

sleep aggression- yes, cuddly- in your face on top of you- what a weird combo- but we have it. i do not tolerate the sleep aggression, he's off the couch and on his bed when that happens. again, it's setting limits.

 

how consistent is truman's daily routine? just asking, a good friend fostered and then kept a nice dog who was a mess, on prozac and not in good shape . with a loving but consistent hand and boundaries and weaning him off of prozac he's now a dream. but it's strict boundaries that he responds to, the same simple routine daily, same meal at the same place, boring existence but he's thriving.

 

have you considered U of Penn or Cornell for a consult?

"Whether it's behavioral or genetic or chemical. It doesn't sound like the prozac is doing a good enough job and you might need to try a different drug, or a different class of anti-anxiety drug.A certified veterinary behaviorist should be able to prescribe appropriate medications, as well as give you some training advice."

 

not all dogs are great at meet and greets and business settings with other dogs. not all dogs like going for walks, being out in crowds, being social; i have a friend whose grey just couldn't do more than his small back yard. as he aged, even w/ behavior mod and chinese herbs he was unhappy- anxiety ridden and in emanational pain.

at this stage in truman's life less might be more and he may need a different more, it's hard to tell over the internet.

 

keep up your good work, don't hit your head against the wall and make sure you play and have pleasurable experiences with him daily. it ain't easy being a dog owner at time.

[Guest FinnsMama]

My Finn is much the same and I have had him seven years. We have mastered the art of going the other way. See my Topic under Behavior and Training: Help With Grey Who Is Overly Friendly With Strangers Started by FinnsMama, Apr 13 2014 03:21 PM

 

He is aggresive with other dogs along with wanting to jump on strangers(people). He is an only dog and he prefers it.

 

Finn takes Elavil (amitriptyline) for his anxieties and that helps. Food treats have no effect when he is excited just like truman. I just use a calm gentle reassuring voice. That along with a lot of encouragment but mostly Ihave just learned to keep him away from other dogs. I think he was picked on by the other dogs as, at 75 lbs, he is small for a grey. His name was Gigantic when I got him and he certainly was not.

 

Good luck!

[cleptogrey]

it sounds like free membership to the bad boyz club....any bad guirles out there, lilly- right? we need to do a meet up ....mabye at grapevines in ny??

Edited April 29, 2014 by cleptogrey

[a_daerr]

keep up your good work, don't hit your head against the wall and make sure you play and have pleasurable experiences with him daily. it ain't easy being a dog owner at time.

 

Amen, sister.

 

I'm looking to see where we can go near Pittsburgh to do an evaluation/assessment for different meds. I'll have to go to a specialist, otherwise, it will just be me saying to my vet, "Let's try this... okay, that didn't work... let's try that."

[Sambuca]

Sometimes changing your frame of mind can help. Instead of thinking how embarrassing it is, think if how horrible he must feel to act like that.

[greysmom]

it sounds like free membership to the bad boyz club....any bad guirles out there, lilly- right? we need to do a meet up ....mabye at grapevines in ny??

 

 

She's actually been much better recently. Once she hit the 2 1/2 year old mark she seemed to begin growing a brain - and ears! She still looks like a gigantic puppy though (she's 33 1/2 inches tall at the shoulder!), and she can have her moments, but we can see the light at the end of the maturity tunnel!

[a_daerr]

That's another thing that makes it harder to take Truman places. He's gigantic, plus he's a pretty blue brindle color with light eyes. He attracts a lot of attention at the events (not to mention, Henry does too because of his tripawdedness). Everyone wants to come up and talk to us, then I have to preface every conversation with, "Sorry, but this one isn't friendly with other dogs..."

[robinw]

Sometimes changing your frame of mind can help. Instead of thinking how embarrassing it is, think if how horrible he must feel to act like that.

Yep. Sounds like he is the sort of dog who is happier staying home.

[DofSweetPotatos]

Have you tried a calming cap? This "softens" their view of the world, which can allow them to tolerate more input without getting overwhelmed as quickly. It's not a cure all, but it helps.

It's so tough when they have a very low threshold. :-( we had good luck with the cap and using some of Emma Parson's techniques.

Thank you for not giving up . It's a tough road when you have an anxious/reactive dog. Wishing you guys peace.