Osteo Thread Part Vi

[Guest BaxtersMom]

Sharon,

 

I'm sorry you've had to say goodbye to Baxter. I sent a copy of your announcement here to Patty Winters at SEGA.

Thank you.

[Guest yat420]

*sigh* I'm having a very hard time here. Fritz is his always very happy self...but his leg doesn't work. My head is just swimming with things...could we amputate at this point? Would it even make sense? Dammit I should've made the decision sooner. He's living as a tripod right now and doing fine. He just pulls up the bad leg and runs. But have we let it go too long now (we're about a month and a half past diagnosis)? Does the fact that it's in the ulna mean that it's rarer and therefore more aggressive? Less aggressive?

 

Yes, he's 12, but he's NOT TWELVE. Chronologically yes he is 12. Fitness level and attitude/spunk would put him at about age 7 or 8. He is still grabbing toys and running out into the yard. He is hopping and bowing at the gate when I get home just as he's done since I got him at age 3. He sails up onto my bed and up into the car. He can still jump into a top crate at the kennel.

 

Is what I'm thinking insane? This is so difficult. The decisions were simple with Sutra (proximal humerus tumor, at age 12, but he was SO frail and old) and with Pinky (distal femur tumor, age 8, we amputated). I have hesitated to amputate with Fritz because it's a front leg and to me that's a whole different ballgame than a rear leg. If he'd come up with osteo in a rear leg instead, he'd have had surgery a month and a half ago and I never would have thought twice. I'm now wondering why on earth I thought twice. I guess I was worried he wouldn't do well as a tripod. But now he's being one anyway.

 

I know that no one here can actually tell me what to do, because that's not what we do here. But to say that I am freaking out right now is a complete understatement. I can't turn my brain off, and usually, I can make a decision and be at peace with it. For the past few days now I've been thinking we should amputate, but wondering if it's too late now. If we were even to consider it I'd of course have his other limbs xrayed and his lungs...he's not a big guy at 57 lbs...and he's not thick either.

 

Talk with your oncologist. Have a chest CT done beforehand, it's more sensitive than radiographs and it will make making a decision easier. I don't think your insane, just madly in love. If you think he can do this, then go for it. Buddy made my decision a little easier. I know that he would not do well with amputation, so we are making the best of things. It was hard not to go full blown into it though. I love him so much that I want as much time as possible. I know how you are feeling.

 

I'm so sorry to hear about Baxter. My thoughts are with you.

[krissn333]

I talked with my mom at some length this afternoon and she sort of "talked me off the ledge" so to speak. Doing the amputation at this point would likely be more for MY benefit than for his, and it's pretty unlikely to buy him much time, unfortunately. I think that I probably just have to put on a brave face and face the fact that he MAY still be my happy bubby boy when it's time to let him go. And maybe that's how it should be. I'm not entirely certain that I want my last memories of him to be filled with a sad Fritz that I've never known, you know?

[JJNg]

Kristin, it sounds like you've made a decision, and I debated whether to post this, but just wanted to add a few thoughts...

I'm not sure I completely agree that doing the amputation now is more for your benefit than his. We all know that osteosarcoma is a painful condition. Even though Fritz is acting playful and happy, the fact that he doesn't use the leg means that it's painful. Amputation would take away the source of the pain. The factors that need to be weighed are how that pain would compare to the acute, short-term pain of surgical recovery, as well as the risk of complications from surgery.

You're right that amputation itself is unlikely to buy more time, but that's true even if it is done immediately after diagnosis. If you decided to amputate now, would you follow with chemo? Considering that the vast majority of cases already have microscopic metastases at the time of diagnosis/amputation, *if* Fritz's chest rads (or preferably CT) are clear, I don't see how the situation would be much different than a case at the time of diagnosis with clear lungs.

As always, there's no right or wrong decision, but I wouldn't think the fact that it's now a month and a half post-diagnosis in itself necessarily makes amputation a less reasonable option. Granted, this isn't a situation I've had personal experience with. Have you discussed this with your oncologist who may have info from similar cases that might help with your decision?

[Charlies_Dad]

Kristin, I am sorry and completely understand your thinking. I would be having the same thoughts as you in your position. It is brutally hard to decide on what the 'right' decision is as there is no true right decision. I agree Jennifer, if his lungs are clear amp is still possible and it would remove the pain and yes what the question is what time does this buy him? Well what if he lives another 12-18mths? That's a lot more life for him pain free if he is healthy in all other aspects. As you know, this disease does not allow us any guarantees and we just have to go with what we feel is best for our pup. Whatever you choose, we are all here to support you.

[Batmom]

he MAY still be my happy bubby boy when it's time to let him go. And maybe that's how it should be.

 

I believe that it is.

 

When it's possible to let a dog go when he or she is still happy, comfortable, waggling ... that's a GOOD thing.

 

Waiting until the dog is in horrible, untreatable pain or miserably weak is something to do only when you've had no other choice.

[NeylasMom]

I'm sorry for the loss of Baxter.

 

Kristin, it sounds like you've made a decision, and I debated whether to post this, but just wanted to add a few thoughts...

I'm not sure I completely agree that doing the amputation now is more for your benefit than his. We all know that osteosarcoma is a painful condition. Even though Fritz is acting playful and happy, the fact that he doesn't use the leg means that it's painful. Amputation would take away the source of the pain. The factors that need to be weighed are how that pain would compare to the acute, short-term pain of surgical recovery, as well as the risk of complications from surgery.

You're right that amputation itself is unlikely to buy more time, but that's true even if it is done immediately after diagnosis. If you decided to amputate now, would you follow with chemo? Considering that the vast majority of cases already have microscopic metastases at the time of diagnosis/amputation, *if* Fritz's chest rads (or preferably CT) are clear, I don't see how the situation would be much different than a case at the time of diagnosis with clear lungs.

As always, there's no right or wrong decision, but I wouldn't think the fact that it's now a month and a half post-diagnosis in itself necessarily makes amputation a less reasonable option. Granted, this isn't a situation I've had personal experience with. Have you discussed this with your oncologist who may have info from similar cases that might help with your decision?

Looking at it from the perspective of someone who is comfortable with the idea of amputation in general, which obviously you are Kristin since you chose it for Pinky, I agree with this. I'm definitely not encouraging you one way or the other, but I don't think that a month and a half with clear x-rays now is really all that different than when you got the initial diagnosis so if you do the rads and they're clear, then it's really about whether you think amputation is a good option to remove pain and give better quality of life. There's also the financial aspect to consider.

 

If you're still considering it, I say get the rads asap and don't worry too much about whether or not you should do it until you have those results. It may be moot, in which case you know where you're at. And if they're clear, then you can drive yourself insane trying ot make a decision. Or perhaps the decision will be clear one way or the other.

[TwiggysMom]

Sharon, I am so sorry about Baxter. It is just not fair.

 

Kristin, it's hard enough to make a decision when everything points in one direction. I remember that FedX's mom started wondering over a year later whether amp might be an option since he was doing so amazingly well. In one of my fits of guilt, I asked Twiggy's oncologist if she was doing so well because we did amp so quickly after she started limping - he said no. He really didn't think that time post-diagnosis was a reliable indicator of longevity post-amp/chemo. That certainly seems counter-intuitive to me, but he had absolutely nothing to gain by telling me that, so I believe that is his true opinion. I hope I haven't added to your uncertainty - I know how hard this is.

 

I continue to have survivor's guilt by proxy. It is with tremendous thankfulness that I can report Twiggy's 21-month checkup continues to show clear chest x-rays. She took me on an hour-long walk tonight after work, and will get a great big grilled steak for dinner tomorrow night (tomorrow is her actual 1.75 year anniversary). Against all odds, Twiggy will attend her 2nd Mountain Hounds at the end of the month. I took her there last year fully expecting it to be her last hurrah. Never did I think that we could make it back again.

[45MPHK9]

Waiting until the dog is in horrible, untreatable pain or miserably weak is something to do only when you've had no other choice.

Amen.

[robinw]

Wendy, don't you EVER feel guilty! I am thrilled about Twiggy, just as I'm sure we all are. Meeting her was meeting a miracle and a star.

 

Kristin, I just lost my second dog to osteo. As has already been posted, not using the leg is an indication of pain. When I lost Phoenix to osteo a couple of years ago, my vet said that if he was showing pain, he had to be in a zillion time more pain than we see. I'll never forget that.

Edited May 16, 2013 by robinw

[45MPHK9]

I continue to have survivor's guilt by proxy.

You knock that off right now, miss. Celebrate everyday with wonderful Twiggy! Please know that we are cheering Twiggy on from here.

 

Bee Wiseman would have wanted it that way.

[TwiggysMom]

Robin and Tricia, thank you so much for that - it is just so unfair that only some of us get the good luck in this. Twiggy has some truly impressive paws to fill!

 

I'd never felt like a particularly lucky person; now I think my good fortune was all being saved up for Twiggy & I .

[NeylasMom]

You knock that off right now, miss. Celebrate everyday with wonderful Twiggy! Please know that we are cheering Twiggy on from here.

 

Bee Wiseman would have wanted it that way.

Heck yeah! We could all use more positive posts in here as far as I'm concerned. Go Twiggy!

[Batmom]

He really didn't think that time post-diagnosis was a reliable indicator of longevity post-amp/chemo. That certainly seems counter-intuitive to me, but he had absolutely nothing to gain by telling me that, so I believe that is his true opinion.

 

I think right now, the docs usually can't distinguish between osteosarcomas that will metastasize quickly, those that have already (invisibly) metastasized, and those that haven't/won't. Maybe someday ......

 

It's wonderful that your lovely girl continues to do well -- no guilt needed there, just lots of scritchies and maybe some ice cream .

[Charlies_Dad]

I third (or fourth) that Twiggy's health and happiness make us all smile Wendy. There never should be any quilt even though I do know how you feel as I had that when Charlie and Joejoe (Jane's pup) were the last survivors of the 'original pack of 7' who started this journey known as the Osteo thread. Twiggy is now at 21mths which is awesome and is a reason to celebrate! Charlie made 21mths and I am sure he is jumping for joy that Twiggy is going to beat him even though he is probably trying to figure out how to come back and challenge her as he was so damn competitive.

 

Keep it up Twiggy! Keep it up girl!!!

[krissn333]

Twiggy

[joejoesmom]

I also felt survivor's guilt with Joe. I was always afraid that Joe's good news would make others feel bad because they weren't as lucky. Now that I am on the other side, I can truly say that I love to hear about good news. It gives me hope.

 

Jane

[greysmom]

You knock that off right now, miss. Celebrate everyday with wonderful Twiggy! Please know that we are cheering Twiggy on from here.

 

Bee Wiseman would have wanted it that way.

 

This! Twiggy is the miracle we all wish for, and NO ONE wishes it any differently for you both! The only reason Dude would be mad would be because he can't go to the party! So raise a milk bone in their honor and keep on keeping on Twiggy!

[tbhounds]

This! Twiggy is the miracle we all wish for, and NO ONE wishes it any differently for you both! The only reason Dude would be mad would be because he can't go to the party! So raise a milk bone in their honor and keep on keeping on Twiggy!

Amen!! I admire Twiggy so much. I love that nothing has slowed her down-that girl just seems to enjoy life. We have a lot to learn from her. Hugs Twiggy!

[Guest snakes]

I big congrats for twiggy's anniversary

 

krissn333, try not to doubt yourself, i know how difficult it is.

I had to put FedX down when he was still in great spirits, he was still happy to eat and see people and get attention. However, he also couldn't hardly walk anymore and after a shrieking and crying incident (after i had to stop short in the car one day) that totally broke my heart I knew i couldn't keep him going any longer. That one incident was so horrible and the leg hadn't even fractured I didn't want to take any chance of something worse. it was heartbreaking to see him fight the final sedation but I know it was the right decision, even to this day, for us. You will know when it is time, and it may not be a decision you want to make, but you will make a right decision based on how well you know your pup and yourself. i wish you all the strength.

[Guest FawnFan]

TwiggysMom - I too send big congratulations on your girl's anniversary. I think this is awesome! Your case is a sign of hope that not every case ends quickly.

 

As for the discussion about letting go when they're happy, all I can say is, ugh. I feel for each of you that has been through this and those who may have to go through this soon. Thanks for bringing it up though. It has given me more information that I may need sometime soon.

 

Thinking of everyone in this club tonight. Wishing you all a peaceful weekend,

Jean

[TwiggysMom]

You are all so great... this is why I tell everyone going through an osteo diagnosis to come here and at least read, if not sign up and post. The support is just amazing!

 

Jean, how is Gunner doing?

 

Twiggy got a grilled filet mignon/grilled veggies/cheesecake dinner (and a sip of beer) on Thurs to celebrate, and I've got another filet lined up for her tonight. Here's a photo from our 2-hour walk this afternoon (more photos in a thread I'm about to post in EEG).

 

[jaym1]

How long did it take you until Twiggy was able to go on the super long walks you're always talking about?

 

I get Tempo a ton of exercise, but almost all of it involves walking to the dog park (1 block from home), and playing vigorous games of fetch, which usually last for 10 to 15 minutes. When we walk, he can sometimes start panting quite soon -- obviously because of the whole missing a front leg thing -- but doesn't necessarily slow down. It's now been two months since amputation, and I'd love to take him on some of the greyhound adventure walks that happen around here, but I just don't know how to gauge his stamina, or how quickly to build it up.

[TwiggysMom]

How long did it take you until Twiggy was able to go on the super long walks you're always talking about?

 

I didn't even try to go on really long walks for quite a while. At 2 months, she was doing just like Tempo - playing like crazy, running full out, and going to the dog park, but by this time it was late October and winter was coming.

 

It wasn't until the weather got nice again that I started letting her decide where and how long to go for walks, and she sort of built herself up to the 2-3 hours over the course of a couple months. So, she was about 7-8 months post-amp that we were going these distances, partially because winter got in the way. Keep in mind, too that Tempo is still going through iv chemo - that will tire him out more. Our timing worked out great because her iv chemo was done over winter when all we wanted to do was hole up inside anyway.

 

I always take a mini emergency kit with me - a blanket, a light sedative, her muzzle, water, some vet wrap, the phone number of a pet-friendly taxi company, $20, a copy of my drivers license, and a copy of my credit card. Wherever we are, if anything awful happens, I can get her to the evet.

 

You might want to at least bring a blanket and water with you so that if Tempo gets tired he (and you) can rest up for a bit.

[Guest FawnFan]

Jean, how is Gunner doing?

 

Wendy - thanks for asking.

 

Gunner is...getting weaker - maybe not the right word - he's deteriorating. I can see it; not sure many others do though. We've been maxed on drugs for a couple of weeks (maybe 3 weeks) now. Yesterday he gave me a hard time about eating his lunch meat "lunch" at pill time. I forgot about the appetite stimulant (haven't had to use it). This morning he ate OK; that was after I gave him a couple of the soft and chewy milkbones to prime the pipe, so to speak. This afternoon he got the appetite stimulant pill (a half) and he ate well. Tonight he had no problems with eating even ate extra food and the Ensure with no problems.

 

This morning, mid-morning, we went for a walk. He LOVES walks. When he figured out we were going, it was the old him that showed up. I had a lot of mixed emotions... he was jumping and twirling and acting as if nothing hurt. It was great to see him sooooo happy yet also sad to know that this horrible disease is eating away at his bones. Then by Noon - 1 PM he was limping a lot. So I gave him a Tylenol 4 with codeine in his afternoon pills. It was too much; should have only done half. He was pretty much a zombie all day after it kicked in. He didn't "wake up" until about 8:30 PM EDT. Didn't do the Tylenol with the night dose; didn't want to see him drugged up again.

 

So I'm trying hard to keep him comfortable, keep him fed and keep lots of food options because he's been picky (the deli counter ladies know me now and ask about the dog - it is kind of funny because they used to be not so nice to me in the beginning). I also know he won't get any better so I've been watching for signs he's ready to go. If the limping continues this week, it may be time. And this rain all week isn't going to help any.

 

As much as I'd like to say he's doing OK, which he is at times, I also want to be realistic and call it like it is.

 

Thanks for asking though. I appreciate it. Have a great week everyone,

Jean