Osteo Thread V

[RaineysMom]

So, I didn't know where else to vent or ramble. I'm not really sure which it is to be honest.

 

Macho is doing well, so you would think I would be upbeat and thrilled right? In a way I am. Today has just been a rough day for me, not him. (He had a blast snoozing and chilling with his buds at a meet and greet!). As you know, we've opted to just manage his pain. This is going really well so far. We seem to be in a good cycle where his pain medicine needs are low and he is perky and silly (as much as he can be really).

 

All that said - I am terrified that we are going to meet the end, not by him being in pain and showing us that he wants to leave, but by getting a bone fracture. How am I going to do that? What if that happens and I have to let him go when he is still himself and happy and smiling? I will feel like I let him down because I don't have the funds to do any other treatment, and even if I did I am not sure I would put him through all of that. I know I can't control how the end will meet us, and I know it will happen. I am just not sure if I can deal with it and feel comfortable letting him go if it comes by way of a fracture or broken bone. His tumor is pretty big. And I know that's probably the inevitable, though I am hoping not. I just know I am going to feel like I failed him if that's how I have to say goodbye.

 

My partner and I are debating when to do the next xray on his leg to see how it's going. Terrified that when we do that will be when we have to bring him home, have a goodbye party with his buddies and say goodbye. Gosh, I'm tearing up already.

 

I am trying to remain positive, because he is. But this is lurking in the back of my mind :sad1

 

Anyway, sorry to be a downer, but I didn't know where else to let this out where someone would understand.

 

I'm right there with you, unfortunately and so far Nube isn't even remotely pain free at this point, I keep hoping. I TOTALLY know how you feel, the last thing we'd want is a frantic trip to the vet to let him go. I would MUCH rather do it when he wasn't in that much pain, let him go a day early.

 

our friend Toni lost both her boys (brothers) to this sucky disease -- Luke first, they thought it was blastomycosis for a while (it wasn't) and he actually fractured his leg the night before she let him go. When his brother Mike started limping, the very day she got the x-rays done and the diagnosis, she let him go right then and there. She swore she would NOT let him go through what Luke did.

 

I just wish we all could have a crystal ball....sure would make things better.

 

sending MANY, MANY hugs to you and Macho. Whatever decision you make will be one made out of pure love, and that's what matters to Macho.

[Guest patterpaws]

MachosMom - We opted for the amputation because I was terrified of Berkeley breaking his leg in the yard, especially since he loved to play and still had full use of his osteo leg. And that's exactly what ended up happening - he broke his remaining front leg when the osteo spread. So while you may think that you haven't done all you "could have done", even if you had exhausted the options, it doesn't mean that things would necessarily be "better", KWIM? Osteo sucks, period, and it doesn't play fair.

 

Just try to take it day by day and enjoy the time you have together.

 

And just to add, had I had any signs that he was going to break his other leg, I would have opted to have him euthanized before that happened - as Batmom said, it's not optimal to have to let them go in a moment of crisis. But since we can't predict what will happen in all cases, we have to do the best we can with the knowledge we have.

 

MachosMom and BauersMom- With Tristan, we went the same route as Berkeley for similar reasons. Tristan seemed full of life and I couldn't bear putting him down when he was happy, yet the vets x-rayed his leg and said that the damage was great enough that there was a very high risk of a leg break (they already saw hairline fractures). The amputation has gone amazingly well so far (its a little over a week since the operation). I still have a fear of pathological break in the back of my mind, since it could feasibly spread to the other leg without us knowing ahead of time. Sometimes I think.... for that reason, and also financially (even tho money isn't everything, its a huge cost!), maybe we should have put him down instead? There's no way to know the future, it seems like either direction is fraught with peril. If we get another year or so with him and no fracture, I think I'll say it was worth it... but if it ends up being a few months and then we end up putting him down with a broken leg at the vets office... augh, I hate to even think that could happen.

 

If we hadn't gone the amputation route, I can say with confidence that we would have put him down early, despite how painful it would have been for us to say goodbye. That danger of the pathological break was far too scary.

 

BauersMom-- There were no signs at all before the break? I'm so sorry that happened to Berkeley. That must have been awful for all of you. I'm so so scared that might happen to us too.

 

Many hugs to everyone currently struggling with this. Machosmom, I really feel for you and know that whatever you decide, we will support you along the way.

Edited July 29, 2012 by patterpaws

[45MPHK9]

There is no good way to lose a dog, a friend, a part of your family and your life. It is better-- by a longshot -- to say goodbye during happy, tailwagging times rather than at a moment of crisis and pain..

 

Wise, wise words, as always, from Batmom.

[Guest patterpaws]

I just wanted to add as a rant/vent.... this osteo seems particularly cruel because it forces you to make quick decisions... but then gives plenty of time for doubts and second guessing. I guess thats the nature of life in general, though.

[Guest patterpaws]

sorry for the multiple posts...

 

Just wondering... I know this may be a morbid question... of the hounds who have had amputations and then passed away later, how did it usually end? Is there usually a gradual slowdown from cancer coming back in other organs, such as the lungs? Pathological break in a remaining leg? How does it usually end?

[krissn333]

The two longest amp survivors I've known here (Winslow and Darcy) both succumbed to heart troubles.

 

The rest I've been aware of have been lost to a mixed bag, some cancer-related, some not.

[MachosMom]

Thank you, everyone! I could crawl thru this forum and hug you all. Such wise advice. Thank you.

 

I think it is a double edged sword for me. I will feel like I failed either way - whether he passes still happy and smiling or by telling us it is time. Such a crappy stinkin disease!

 

Thank you all for your support. I hope one day we can meet.

 

Part of me really would rather he go smiling... So i can remember him easier that way.

 

For now, one day at a time. Not sure yet when my partner wants to schedule the xrays. May be a few weeks as is so... Gonna try to stay upbeat!

[Charlies_Dad]

 

Just wondering... I know this may be a morbid question... of the hounds who have had amputations and then passed away later, how did it usually end? Is there usually a gradual slowdown from cancer coming back in other organs, such as the lungs? Pathological break in a remaining leg? How does it usually end?

 

Charlie passed due to what appeared to be tumour on or around his heart. He slowed down in the last two weeks and had fluid build-up in his chest (blood is what it looked like to me) and while his spirit was willing to go on, we could not have him suffocate as that was likely the outcome in the end. It was obvious he was bleeding into his chest cavity and we may have been able to spoil him over the weekend or possibly another week but I believe that would have been selfish if he would have died in panic trying to breathe. So we made the decision that Friday afternoon which I did not think we would be doing that day. I don't regret my decision, I just won't ever forget as he fought so strongly to stay upright while the sedative kicked in (we were in our car and he was in my arms) and then finally falling asleep and the final moment as I felt the last beat of his heart and his held slipped down sideways....that will forever haunt me.

 

On the topic of a bone fracture, after what happened to Berk, I spoke to my vet who provided me with morphine in the event that it happened to Charlie. This is not an accepted practice but I know my vet did it due to our great relationship and his comfort in knowing that I knew enough to administer the small dose just to relieve the pain, it was not enough to put him to sleep.

[greysmom]

Dude lasted nine months post-amp, before the cancer metastasized into his spine. I actually think it was there for quite some time - maybe several months - before it caused enough pain for us to notice. If we have another grey with cancer (when, more likely), I will probably insist on a full body xray, or at least to image the spine, as that's not some place they usually look for osteo.

 

We had no indication he had osteo at all before his initial leg break. He was out running in the yard and on the last lap I heard that snapping sound and Dude screamed, and I knew exactly what it was. We had a basically OK dog standing in the yard with a broken leg. There was really only one decision we could make.

 

We knew he would be fine as a tripod, plus he was one of those strange dogs that loved going to the vet, so the follow-up chemo was also not an issue. We went through with the amp, did the chemo, and he was doing great on his metronomic protocol. He was doing fine, then one night sort of out of the blue, he was in pain, couldn't settle, couldn't pee, and I knew something was really wrong. At the hospital the next morning it was clear he was done. We let him go holding him and telling him how much we loved him. All his friends on the staff came by and said goodbye - which was basically everybody - and he passed peacefully. It was less that 20 hours from his rist signs of pain until he was gone.

 

The thought of a second fracture was a constant fear all the time we had him at home. The problem is you can never know. Cancer is the biggest crapshoot around and you really don't know how it's going to progress. All you can do is make the best decision you can, with the information you have, in the time that you have. We can all tell you our experiences, but only you know what's best for you and your dog.

[JJNg]

of the hounds who have had amputations and then passed away later, how did it usually end?

 

Not sure if there have been any studies to look at this, but from what I've seen, suffering a fracture to a remaining leg is pretty rare. I think Berkeley is the only one I remember hearing about. More often, the cancer spreads to the lungs resulting in coughing, difficulty breathing, and lethargy. Or the cancer spreads to another leg (or elsewhere, like the spine in Dude's case) causing pain and difficulty walking before it gets to the point of an acute, pathological fracture.

Edited July 29, 2012 by JJNg

[BauersMom]

Yeah, for all the research I'd done, having osteo in another leg and suffer a break seemed almost unheard of - though clearly, nothing is 100%.

 

And no, there were no signs - not even any with the benefit of hindsight. No limping, no hesitation getting up, no change in activity level... He was running in the yard when it happened.

[tbhounds]

Yeah, for all the research I'd done, having osteo in another leg and suffer a break seemed almost unheard of - though clearly, nothing is 100%.

 

And no, there were no signs - not even any with the benefit of hindsight. No limping, no hesitation getting up, no change in activity level... He was running in the yard when it happened.

I wish I could agree that OSA showing up in another limb was rare-in fact a know multiple hounds that this has actually happened too :-(

[Guest snakes]

I am so sorry to hear about Cash's and Maya's passing the past few days, Nube's ongoing pain, and Tristans journey. I am glad to hear that Macho is comfortable!

 

Just a point of view from myself dealing with FedX's osteo over the past year and a half on only palliative pain management with pamidronate, herbs, artemisinin, and pain meds....

 

I live alone with FedX and his sister UPS, every day I leave for work or go out somewhere I have two big fears 1) our building could burn down and they'd be trapped, 2) (and the more likely) that FedX will have his leg fracture while i am away and be in severe pain until i get back after who knows how many hours or minutes.

 

Neither situation pleasant to think about and in neither situation can anything be done to completely avoid it.

 

Every day and every hour that is in the back of my brain and does haunt me to some degree, unfortunatly that is the way with pain management and osteo -- It sucks and scary all at the same time. This is the reality no matter how grim, but from direct experience I can tell you it does add stress to EVERY moment of your life.

 

I have basically dealt with it by spoiling him and myself, seeking my 'special' moments with him, taking pictures of him, taking him his favorite places, and just relying on good thoughts and superstition! I have become very intune with how he moves, and the looks he gives me, but at the end of the day, you can't tell for sure, only hope.

I now seek out special things to do with him that I always wanted to do, like Grapehounds this past weekend!!! (cue Tricia for pictures)

Even if his leg fractures and that horrible horrible experience I will know I made the best of the time I had with him and at the point we are at that is ok for me and keep our fingers crossed.

I wish I had better words of adivse, but unfortunatly noone can give that, we all just have to do the best we can.

Edited July 30, 2012 by snakes

[KF_in_Georgia]

My Sam is 12 years old and in failing health. He gets frailer by the day--sometimes, it seems, by the minute. There's not one specific thing that's failing. It's a combination of spinal arthritis, weak rear legs, and breathing issues. His muscles are almost melting away.

 

Every morning that I leave for work, I tell him to be sure to meet me at the door when I get home. When I see that nose sneaking around the door as I come home at night, I'm greatly relieved. The day that nose isn't there, my heart will break.

 

Silver is crated during the day. This means that if Sam goes down, she won't be in a position to harm him, so that's one less worry. My vinyl floor has a little bit of "tooth" to it, but Sam's slipped on it and fallen--done a Bambi and screamed until I came and got him back on his feet. I tell myself he's not too likely to have a problem on the floor when I'm not home; he only has a problem when he hurries, and these days he only hurries when I'm in the kitchen and he's not. It won't do to try to confine him in the carpeted living room or something like that: the surest way to arouse Sam's dedicated efforts to get someplace he shouldn't is to put a barricade in his way.

 

My hope is that when Sam goes, it's peacefully--in his sleep--with me there or even without me. But there's nothing I can do except hope.

 

My first dog, Oreo, broke her leg standing in my living room. There'd been no warning limp. She was 8 years old. I came home from work and both dogs were fine. I'd been grocery shopping, and I was unloading my car when I heard her scream. The x-rays showed no signs of cancer; she threw a blood clot and died during orthopedic surgery to repair the break. These days, knowing what I do, I'd opt for amputation rather than a surgical repair--even with x-rays showing no cancer. There's no way a dog breaks her leg standing in the living room and it's not cancer. whatever the x-rays say. And amputation might have prevented the blood clot that killed her. But in a way, we were lucky: that blood clot prevented months of pain and bad healing and the inevitable revelation of the cancer. I just wish I'd had a chance to say goodbye.

 

And I lost my second dog to a sudden, devastating illness.

 

I think, in a round-about way, I'm just saying we need to enjoy all the days we've got with them--well or ill. Without a crystal ball to warn me about Oreo and Jacey, I didn't push to do lots of special events with them. Yes, they had good lives and were loved to pieces, but I didn't do special trips or anything. And now Sam is just too frail to do anything too exciting; he gets lots of cuddles on the heap of dog beds in my living room floor, and there's a prodigious amount of treats in his life; but he can't tolerate long walks in the park or anything like that. And poor Silver: a gimpy back leg and a corn on a front foot make longs walks a punishment rather than a treat; we're concentrating on meet and greets (with padding to stand on) and lots of petting for now. I don't think their last days need to be particularly special-event memorable: just happy, comfortable, and full of love. We can't always prevent a bad ending: we can only take what precautions are within our means and love them enough to do what they need us to do at the end.

[JJNg]

Yeah, for all the research I'd done, having osteo in another leg and suffer a break seemed almost unheard of - though clearly, nothing is 100%.

 

And no, there were no signs - not even any with the benefit of hindsight. No limping, no hesitation getting up, no change in activity level... He was running in the yard when it happened.

I wish I could agree that OSA showing up in another limb was rare-in fact a know multiple hounds that this has actually happened too :-(

 

I agree that OSA showing up in another limb is not rare. What is rare is to have an acute fracture with no previous signs of discomfort. Berkeley is the only I've heard of this happening to. All the other cases I know that have had the cancer show up in another limb presented with pain and lameness. Now, knowing that there are a good number of cases where the initial OSA diagnosis manifests with an acute fracture with minimal trauma and no previous warning, I'm not surprised that it's a possibility. Just haven't heard of it happening much.

[45MPHK9]

I have basically dealt with it by spoiling him and myself, seeking my 'special' moments with him, taking pictures of him, taking him his favorite places, and just relying on good thoughts and superstition! I have become very intune with how he moves, and the looks he gives me, but at the end of the day, you can't tell for sure, only hope.

I now seek out special things to do with him that I always wanted to do, like Grapehounds this past weekend!!! (cue Tricia for pictures)

 

Carol, it was so great to meet you, your mom, and FedX this weekend. He really looks great. We will be rooting on his fight against osteo. He's a miracle dog.

[45MPHK9]

FedX on Instagram

FedX by 45mphk9, on Flickr

[MachosMom]

Carol, thank you again for wise words! I am currently awake earlier than I need to be for work just so that Macho can have time to play in the dirt in our yard before we all head out an while the house is quiet.

 

And FedEx is such a cutie pie! ((hugs to you and him))

 

 

[Guest snakes]

Thank you Tricia for those wonderfull pictures I love that instragram one!! I'll try posting a few pics of our own coming up soon in a separate thread.

[4My2Greys]

Thank you Tricia for those wonderfull pictures I love that instragram one!! I'll try posting a few pics of our own coming up soon in a separate thread.

 

I love that he and you are both smiling in the first picture.

[BauersMom]

Yeah, for all the research I'd done, having osteo in another leg and suffer a break seemed almost unheard of - though clearly, nothing is 100%.

 

And no, there were no signs - not even any with the benefit of hindsight. No limping, no hesitation getting up, no change in activity level... He was running in the yard when it happened.

I wish I could agree that OSA showing up in another limb was rare-in fact a know multiple hounds that this has actually happened too :-(

 

I agree that OSA showing up in another limb is not rare. What is rare is to have an acute fracture with no previous signs of discomfort. Berkeley is the only I've heard of this happening to. All the other cases I know that have had the cancer show up in another limb presented with pain and lameness. Now, knowing that there are a good number of cases where the initial OSA diagnosis manifests with an acute fracture with minimal trauma and no previous warning, I'm not surprised that it's a possibility. Just haven't heard of it happening much.

 

Right - that's what I meant also. Certainly osteo does spread to other limbs, I just didn't realize that a crisis break was possible in a post-amp case.

 

My original point is for people to not fret about "picking the wrong choice", only because osteo can be fairly unpredictable with any medical route taken...just do what you think is best for your dog and your situation.

[krissn333]

Well said.

[Charlies_Dad]

Kristin, any new pics of Pinky???

Edited August 2, 2012 by Charlies_Dad

[MauCarden]

Any suggestions on bringing down hind leg swelling? Cool compresses, Hot compresses? It is swelling, not the tumor. Thanks for any advice.

[MachosMom]

Any suggestions on bringing down hind leg swelling? Cool compresses, Hot compresses? It is swelling, not the tumor. Thanks for any advice.

 

For us warm compresses and gentle massage works to help reduce the swelling.