Added a third and now we have a bully

[Chicken]

We just (as in two days ago) added a third hound to our house.  The second and new one get along great, but the first one has become a bully.  We are using muzzles, walks, and no unsupervised time but how can we ease our first one’s stress and help acceptance of the third?  I know it’s only been two days, but I want to ensure we are doing everything the best way.  In case it matters hound 1—girl, never raced, brought home at 15 months, is now 3 and has also been an alpha. 67 lbs.   Hound 2—-girl, raced for a brief time,  brought  home at 2.5 years, is now 3, and  is very submissive 64 lbs.  Hound 3—boy and littermate to hound 2. Raced for a longer time, is 3, seems submissive, 80lbs. 
Any input is appreciated. 

[macoduck]

I wonder if #1 is sensing the hormones in #3 since I presume his neutering was recent.

In what way is she bullying him? Shoving? Food aggression?

[Chicken]

That could be it.  She is snapping and growling at him.  She is also snapping and growling at our other female which she has not done before.   
She was snapping yesterday at meal time so we moved the male to eat in a separate room. 
Any suggestions are appreciated.  I don’t want any of them to be miserable.  

[greysmom]

Hound 1 is the odd girl out and outnumbered by the siblings.  It's an uncomfortable and anxiety-inducing feeling in a dog who's always been in charge, so she's reacting by trying to solidify her position in the most aggressive way she can to try and stop one of the other two - the large male - from taking her position from her.  Additionally, by bringing your numbers to three, you now have a "pack" of dogs which can sometimes change the dynamics in a home drastically.

First thing - YOU decide who is going to be the leader of your little pack.  I'm assuming girl #1, but you may decide the #3 is assuming the role.  Dogs are most comfortable when positions are well defined, and they will make up their own if left to their own devices.  If you don't, there will be continued jostling for position until they work it out on their own, and it can sometimes get ugly and dangerous.  Use their muzzles (on everyone) until you feel you can trust them after an honest and objective assessment of their behavior down the road when things have stabilized.  It can take several months for the new dynamics to solidify so don't give up on monitoring and reinforcing too soon.  DO NOT leave them unsupervised without crating or muzzling at this point.

Reinforce who you decide will be the leader by using some easy behavioral cues - they sound like a lot of hooey, but our definition of what is appropriate is different from theirs.  The leader gets everything first - food (separate them and put the leader's food down first, but do not allow the leader to get at the other's bowls when they are finished), treats (give to the leader first), toys (put them away and only give them to isolated dogs one at a time for now), the leader gets to be in front on walks, gets attention from the humans by themself and special attention with solo rides/brushing/yard time basically anything that's considered special in your house. 

The leader of the "dog pack" needs to understand that YOU are the leader of the "house pack" so continue to set proper boundaries for rules and schedules and the dispensing of food.  If the leader starts getting too pushy with people, revert back to NILIF training to make sure they understand who is responsible for leading the house.

Having multiple dogs can be really fun, and most of us who own greyhounds end up having packs of them (of varying sizes).  It's important to remember that it's up to US to set the rules and maintain order.

[FiveRoooooers]

New orders can def be an adjustment. For peace of mind but especially safety, initially I would keep all three of them muzzled during the day, during turnouts and at night (if they aren't using crates). Feed everyone in separate areas. If they whine about the muzzles ignore it. Keep a vigilant eye, but I will stress that your mindset is key. These dogs pick up on everything! I started with one, went to two then three, then five and six and what was critical for us was that I simply expected everyone would get along, and they did. Even bad boy Paddy Mayhem, who wasn't inherently a bad boy, as well as MiMi Sizzle Pants. It's being creative to make the environment conducive to everyone getting along. You've got this, three is fun!

[Chicken]

25 minutes ago, greysmom said:

Hound 1 is the odd girl out and outnumbered by the siblings.  It's an uncomfortable and anxiety-inducing feeling in a dog who's always been in charge, so she's reacting by trying to solidify her position in the most aggressive way she can to try and stop one of the other two - the large male - from taking her position from her.  Additionally, by bringing your numbers to three, you now have a "pack" of dogs which can sometimes change the dynamics in a home drastically.

First thing - YOU decide who is going to be the leader of your little pack.  I'm assuming girl #1, but you may decide the #3 is assuming the role.  Dogs are most comfortable when positions are well defined, and they will make up their own if left to their own devices.  If you don't, there will be continued jostling for position until they work it out on their own, and it can sometimes get ugly and dangerous.  Use their muzzles (on everyone) until you feel you can trust them after an honest and objective assessment of their behavior down the road when things have stabilized.  It can take several months for the new dynamics to solidify so don't give up on monitoring and reinforcing too soon.  DO NOT leave them unsupervised without crating or muzzling at this point.

Reinforce who you decide will be the leader by using some easy behavioral cues - they sound like a lot of hooey, but our definition of what is appropriate is different from theirs.  The leader gets everything first - food (separate them and put the leader's food down first, but do not allow the leader to get at the other's bowls when they are finished), treats (give to the leader first), toys (put them away and only give them to isolated dogs one at a time for now), the leader gets to be in front on walks, gets attention from the humans by themself and special attention with solo rides/brushing/yard time basically anything that's considered special in your house. 

The leader of the "dog pack" needs to understand that YOU are the leader of the "house pack" so continue to set proper boundaries for rules and schedules and the dispensing of food.  If the leader starts getting too pushy with people, revert back to NILIF training to make sure they understand who is responsible for leading the house.

Having multiple dogs can be really fun, and most of us who own greyhounds end up having packs of them (of varying sizes).  It's important to remember that it's up to US to set the rules and maintain order.

Thank you for the advice.   We were doing a lot of this.  We established hound 1 as the leader and are giving her food, treats, putting her leash on…all first.  She gets attention first, etc.  

I was worried that we were on the road to failure.  I know it takes time but I just hate to see them anxious.  I am glad to hear success stories I have heard discouraging stories.  

[zimsmom]

4 hours ago, FiveRoooooers said:

MiMi Sizzle Pants

this made me lol.  what a name. 

[FiveRoooooers]

3 minutes ago, zimsmom said:

this made me lol.  what a name. 

MiMi Sizzle Pants was such a good girl!

(sorry for the hijack)

[greysmom]

We've never had siblings at the same time, but we have had as many as six greyhounds (plus 4 cats and two humans) of varying ages and genders in a 900 sq ft house.  It's totally possible to have a calm(ish!) and organized household without causing a lot of stress.  None of them met beforehand, and, like Jan, I just expected everyone to get along and made a plan to make sure that happened every time another was added.  Set everyone up to win!!

It just takes some thinking ahead about management and being organized, and all the humans agreeing on what/how things should happen.

[Chicken]

1 hour ago, FiveRoooooers said:

MiMi Sizzle Pants was such a good girl!

(sorry for the hijack)

Hijack away 😀.  Doesn’t bother me a bit. 

1 hour ago, greysmom said:

We've never had siblings at the same time, but we have had as many as six greyhounds (plus 4 cats and two humans) of varying ages and genders in a 900 sq ft house.  It's totally possible to have a calm(ish!) and organized household without causing a lot of stress.  None of them met beforehand, and, like Jan, I just expected everyone to get along and made a plan to make sure that happened every time another was added.  Set everyone up to win!!

It just takes some thinking ahead about management and being organized, and all the humans agreeing on what/how things should happen.

So it sounds like we are doing everything correctly, they just need time to sort it out.  
i appreciate the reassurance.   I have found multiple places discouraging three hounds but want it to work 

[greysmom]

You'll find people who don't think siblings can live together, or two females, or whatever they think is the "wrong" combination.  But greyhounds are used to living together in groups so a lot of those old wives tales don't apply.  When we had six dogs we had 4 females and 2 males in our home pack and everything worked out fine.  We even had another male foster for a while, so for several months we had seven.  THAT was one too many, even for us!!!    Fortunately the foster went to his forever home and we were back to normal.  

You do have to be aware kind of all the time about the day-to-day dynamics of how your dogs interact and try and head off any troubles.  Especially if you have one that's a resource guarder (of food, bed space, toys, treats).  We had to put away all the toys for awhile due to one of ours getting very guardy about her possessions.  We let them play with them only as individuals or in pairs who would get along OK.  As the dynamics of our pack changed she's now OK playing with toys, so we can leave a few out for some squeaky sessions and tossing about.

You should look up "littermate syndrome" just so you're  aware of it.  Especially on Mister Google there are loads of bad stories and warnings about how bad it can go.  I've not personally ever heard of greyhounds having this issue, but since you have littermates it's something to keep at the very back of your mind covered in huge grains of salt.

Your boy just got there.  So it's just a single blip in what will be a years long process.  Be calm and consistent.  Be a safe home for everyone!  Set a solid schedule, and keep your rules and boundaries in place.  You're not doing anything wrong and a lot right!  It just may take some flexibility on your part as the relationships relax and change in the coming months.

[FiveRoooooers]

 I had two sets of a mix of male and female littermates living with other, unrelated hounds and it was one of our most complementary packs. That was 15 hounds ago. Some littermates will recognize each other and rejoice; others may not show any or very little recognition and do just fine. Let us know how it's going, we love updates 

[LBass]

I think that some litter mates like each other and some don't, rather like sometimes happens with human siblings.  MoMo Meany Pants clearly liked her brother Tiger and was happy to see him when they were both at an event together.  On the other hand, she didn't seem to like brother Petey at all and growled at him both times they met in adulthood.  Weird 'cuz who didn't love Petey!

Chicken, it sounds as if your sibs like each other. 

[Chicken]

I thought I would provide an update on the bully 😂😂

Thank you for all the replies and advice.  
Everyone seems to be getting along.  The bully is being less of a bully and all are getting along well. 
Now to tackle the stairs🤦‍♀️.  My girls are smaller so this will be an experience with a large boy.  We are not in a rush and will take it slow.  

[LBass]

That's a lovely update! 

[Potomacpupsmom]

 

 The hounds are getting along!   

 

On 8/23/2023 at 12:59 PM, LBass said:

I think that some litter mates like each other and some don't, rather like sometimes happens with human siblings.  MoMo Meany Pants clearly liked her brother Tiger and was happy to see him when they were both at an event together.  On the other hand, she didn't seem to like brother Petey at all and growled at him both times they met in adulthood.  Weird 'cuz who didn't love Petey!

Chicken, it sounds as if your sibs like each other. 

Sorry to hijack, but Lucy!   MoMo was a littermate with THE Petey?   How could she not love him? 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Potomacpupsmom

[LBass]

  Yes, Kathy, Petey and MoMo were indeed full litter mates.  She was in the same farm puppy pen as Tiger and other sibling Junior, so I suspect that they developed a strong relationship during those months together. Petey was, if I remember correctly, 2 runs down the line.  I can't say my beloved girl had poor taste, so I'm going with the proximity argument as an explanation.