Muzzle punch?

[Jasmine]

Hi everyone,

 

I have a retired coursing dog for the last 2 months. He is generally brilliant with no behavioural issues. However something has come up that has caused concern for us and we want to help him.

We always walk him on lead with a muzzle. He generally is happy enough to walk past other dogs that are also on lead and 90% of the time ignores them.

Problems come when off-lead dogs approach him. About 5 times now off-lead dogs (always small) have approached him and we can't get them away. We ask the owners to remove them but it's not always successful! He generally freezes and won't move. Sometimes he will circle with the dog (we try not to tense the lead and create stress for him) but his tail is down and he's clearly not enjoying it. If the other dog isn't removed then after about 45sec he will muzzle punch it on its back. Usually this makes the other dogs owner panic and finally listen to me and take their dog away.

Is this problematic behaviour? He's clearly uncomfortable and I wonder if he's just warning the other dog to back off. Should it be something I work on with him? And if so, how?

 

Please help!

Thanks!

[greysmom]

You need to be more proactive about protecting your dog in these situations.  He's just doing what he feels he needs to in order to protect himself.

Be much firmer with the owners of off leash dogs - at least here in the US - they are actually breaking the law in most jurisdictions.  Off leash dogs are rude, and hardly ever under voice control of their owner, and can cause untold problems for well behaved dogs on lead.   No one wants to see a dog get hurt or injured, but this is what they are in danger of by running up to strange dogs.  Many people carry sticks or canes to help fend these dogs off.  A squirt gun with a water-vinegar mixture can sometimes be a deterrent.  I've even resorted to kicking persistent and aggressive ankle-biters to keep them away from my dogs.  Then I ask for their owners contact information so I can report them to our local animal control.

If you're walking him in a muzzle because of these incidents, I would urge you to reconsider.  One of the reasons he feels so anxious is because he knows he has no defense if one of these dogs does bite or attack him.  And a muzzled dog seems to give some owners of off leash dogs a feeling that their dog is "safe" from retaliation.

If your dog does have issues with "leash reactivity" there's a wonderful booklet by trainer Patricia McConnell called "Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash Reactive Dog."  It's cheap, and comes in hard copy or ebook, and gives step-by-step training help to work through this behavior.

[MerseyGrey]

I can’t help with the behaviour but we have a dog that is reactive on occasion so we have bought an ‘I need space’ banner for his lead (and a bright yellow jacket with the same slogan which we haven’t resorted to yet) from https://www.yellowdoguk.co.uk/ . Obviously this won’t help when dogs run at you but I find that it prompts some people to put their dog on a lead around us. Our dog is not muzzled for the reasons that greysmom suggests above.

[BatterseaBrindl]

Grrrrr….nothing worse than off-leash dogs who come up to and pester other dogs.  Usually while the owner is a hundred feet away and shouting out .. “don’t worry...he’s very friendly…he just wants to play”…

I’m with Chris… tell the owner to remove their dog.  If they don’t, then I would not hesitate to kick out at it.  
A dressage whip is light-weight and makes a rather scary noise when flicked.  It can also give quite a sting to anything within its reach. 

I used to carry a whip while walking my guys as one of our neighbours dogs just would not leave us alone.  It did eventually escalate into a fight and in retrospect I should have called animal control long before it got to that. 
 

[mansbestfriend]

It can be a very tense time for dogs. Apart from the fact that your dog sounds very tolerant, this also sounds fairly typical of many offlead/uncontrolled dogs and owners. Unfortunately random dogs and random owners are out of your control and might always be around the next corner. Safety is always a priority. If you can't avoid it, try assess the loose dog's behaviour signals well beforehand, to determine if it could be dangerous or just a nuisance.

Maybe take an early detour (EG: across a park rather than on the path or whatever) in those circumstances, or simply keep walking 'with purpose'? Can you walk in a more quiet area, or time of day etc.? 

PS. 45 seconds is a very long time for unfamiliar dogs to be meeting/interacting.

[HeyRunDog]

It's easy to forget that retired working/racing dogs haven't been socialised with other breeds and sizes of dogs. When I first got Grace if we met another owner with a well behaved dog on its lead I used to ask if Grace could say hello. After a quick sniff we'd be on our way. She will now tolerate small dogs and even wag her tail at the ones we meet regularly.

[Jasmine]

Thanks everyone. We always walk him with a muzzle, I was told its the law in our area (ireland) to walk a greyhound with a muzzle. It's the same one that they used at his racing kennel, so he's well used to it. We're going to get the jacket and hopefully that helps. A French bulldog got into our garden yesterday and our grey was fine with it (unmuzzled and off lead) although we removed him from the situation very quickly.

 

We've been crossing roads and avoiding off lead dogs as much as possible and we don't walk him in parks because there's always off lead dogs (even though the by-laws state they should be on the lead) and you're correct that the off-lead dogs don't respond to their owners at all.

 

We've also been bringing treats on our walks and they've proved a good distraction. We've also starting training him 'look at me' and creating eye contact with us has been helpful on walks when he gets distracted.

 

I don't want to punish him for the behaviour because I think it will make it worse. He's only defending himself and I don't think it's his fault. 

Do you think I should get a dog behaviourist involved? Or try and socialise him more? I don't want to overwhelm him

 

Thanks

[greysmom]

Just keep doing what you're doing.  It takes time and patience and consistency to change fear-based behaviors, and 2 months in a new home is just a blip of time for him.

You can try a behaviorist, as long as they *only* use positive reinforcement techniques, but it sounds like you're already doing everything one might recommend.  All of what you're describing is really common behavior for newly adopted, retired racing greyhounds.  Consistency.  Time.  Patience.  

[racindog]

Normal IMO. In fact he is being a gentlemen by trying to get them to leave first. When they don't listen he has no recourse but to escalate. I don't see it as a problem. IMO he is doing nothing wrong. I don't blame him a bit for getting testy with the unwanted intuders. I wouldn't want them interfering with me on my walk either! 

 

[Jasmine]

Brilliant, it's very reassuring to hear I'm doing the right thing. We will keep at it!

[Jasmine]

Hi everyone, wanted to update on Brandy. We are now 6months in. We got a dog trainer to assess him, he believed we needed to be firmer with him on walks. Now if he freezes we pull up on the lead and 99% of the time he moves on. We've also gotten better at advocating for him. I have found a stern 'get' and a stamp in their direction gets most dogs to back off. Brandy has been going to monthly greyhound walks and is gaining confidence with each one. He is very friendly with other sighthounds and we've had a couple of polite interactions with other breeds but I avoid at all costs. We've trained 'touch' with him, which is proving a good distraction if we can ask him to do it before he really locks into a stare. He will only lunge at a dog now if it's running (doesn't have to be running towards him, it could be totally ignoring him). It's the same lunge he does towards cats and squirrels so I don't think he wants to play. I think he wants to hunt the fast thing. I don't think I will ever be able to trust him around other dogs. He will have to meet my parents spaniel next week (hopefully they get along and he can stay in the house, if they don't he will be kennelled). I am going to keep him muzzled and I have to say I'm very nervous about it. But we will wait and see. We've made huge progress since we first got him so fingers crossed we will get to a stage where I'm not afraid he'll murder a labrador!!!

[HeyRunDog]

8 hours ago, Jasmine said:

Hi everyone, wanted to update on Brandy. We are now 6months in. We got a dog trainer to assess him, he believed we needed to be firmer with him on walks. Now if he freezes we pull up on the lead and 99% of the time he moves on. We've also gotten better at advocating for him. I have found a stern 'get' and a stamp in their direction gets most dogs to back off. Brandy has been going to monthly greyhound walks and is gaining confidence with each one. He is very friendly with other sighthounds and we've had a couple of polite interactions with other breeds but I avoid at all costs. We've trained 'touch' with him, which is proving a good distraction if we can ask him to do it before he really locks into a stare. He will only lunge at a dog now if it's running (doesn't have to be running towards him, it could be totally ignoring him). It's the same lunge he does towards cats and squirrels so I don't think he wants to play. I think he wants to hunt the fast thing. I don't think I will ever be able to trust him around other dogs. He will have to meet my parents spaniel next week (hopefully they get along and he can stay in the house, if they don't he will be kennelled). I am going to keep him muzzled and I have to say I'm very nervous about it. But we will wait and see. We've made huge progress since we first got him so fingers crossed we will get to a stage where I'm not afraid he'll murder a labrador!!!

Glad you are starting to have positive results. I'm going through a similar thing with Guinness whom I adopted about 4 months ago. When I first had him he would bounce around barking on his lead at the sight of another non-greyhound. After watching what was happening around him as opposed to just watching him, it appears it's a defence strategy. He'll bark and lunge but then press himself against me but continue barking. I've been lucky in that one or two other dog owners whose dog's are also on a lead have stopped to have a quick chat despite a large black hound barking at them. After a couple of minutes Guinness gives up having realised that despite his best attempts they are not going away and will ignore the other dog even going up to the owner for a fuss.

He now only barks and lunges at other dogs if they are coming towards him or running off lead.

[HeyRunDog]

PS. Forgot to add that once he's met another dog three or four times and realises that it's not a threat he will then greet it with a wagging tail or ignore it so there's hope for Brandy meeting your parent's spaniel.

[EllenEveBaz]

One common method of introducing dogs that you hope will be together on a regular basis is to have them meet on neutral ground where neither feels protective or defensive.  Neutral ground can be somewhere like on the street near the.  Maybe it would help to have Brandy be the one approaching the spaniel?

And just brainstorming -- if you could easily get a rag or something with the spaniel's scent on it ahead of time, so that Brandy might recognize it when they actually meet.  Or even exchange items with scents.  

[Jasmine]

12 hours ago, HeyRunDog said:

PS. Forgot to add that once he's met another dog three or four times and realises that it's not a threat he will then greet it with a wagging tail or ignore it so there's hope for Brandy meeting your parent's spaniel.

Fingers crossed! We're going to take them on a walk together first on neutral ground and she's quiet a submissive girl so I think they could get on

[Jasmine]

6 hours ago, EllenEveBaz said:

One common method of introducing dogs that you hope will be together on a regular basis is to have them meet on neutral ground where neither feels protective or defensive.  Neutral ground can be somewhere like on the street near the.  Maybe it would help to have Brandy be the one approaching the spaniel?

And just brainstorming -- if you could easily get a rag or something with the spaniel's scent on it ahead of time, so that Brandy might recognize it when they actually meet.  Or even exchange items with scents.  

They're good ideas thank you! We're going to take it slow and hopefully they just aren't that bothered by each other but we're going to closely supervise them and watch the body language

[HeyRunDog]

9 hours ago, Jasmine said:

They're good ideas thank you! We're going to take it slow and hopefully they just aren't that bothered by each other but we're going to closely supervise them and watch the body language

Make sure all concerned remain calm confident and in control on the outside if not on the inside as dogs pick up on the owners anxiety and will go into defence mode