Difficult Situation - Any Way Out?

[WabiSabi]

Hi all

 

New hound people with a 2yo adopted hound here, and we're after some advice please.

 

We adopted our female hound 11 days ago (so early days) but we're regressing rather than progressing.

 

Background

She was very timid to begin with - she was bred as a racer but didn't take to it so was never raced. She was adopted from a racing kennels where she was allowed out into the hound paddock through the day. When we met her, she was wary of all hoomans except for the kennel owner. She did walk with us on a leash but backed away from praise and affection touching. My wife is at work all day and I work from home. She has a bed in an alcove with a door at one end and a pet gate at the other that are only closed at night or if we go out; separation anxiety is not a problem - attachment anxiety is as you'll see below!

 

Problems

We've had problems walking her from the start since she came home with us. She refuses to budge - it's not statuing it's wilful digging her heels in if she's standing and cowering into the corner of her bed if she's there. When we have got her out on a walk, she's OK but a bit scared of cars and wary of other people. Initially, to get her outside to toilet or go on a walk, I had to carry her out or lift her hind legs and wheelbarrow her out.

 

This has made her even more wary of me and she won't come anywhere near me. She is more comfortable around my wife even though she plays "bad cop" sometimes and carries her. (I'm a big bloke so that may have something to do with it). She backs away if either of us try to put a coat on her. Oddly, she'll let us put the collar on her but then she refuses to walk anywhere. As above, it's not statuing and doing the walking around in a circle doesn't shift her. Being firm doesn't work and being soft doen't work.

 

We've got a large, enclosed garden and have managed to get her to go outside via the kitchen door over the last few days , without the leash or coat, unless I'm in the kitchen in which case she hovers or scampers back to her bed. So at least we've solved the toileting issue. The problem now is that she refuses to come back indoors, even for food. My wife had to carry her back in again this morning (I couldn't get near her to pick her up). When presented with her breakfast, she ate it all but whimpered a few times to be let out again (in the mud and pouring rain!) As I type, she's running back and forth between her bed and the kitchen door. If I let her out, I won't be able to get her back inside before I have to go out on errands.

 

She doesn't respond to praise and she doesn't respond to treats (toys, nibbles, peanut butter) as a training tool. She likes the treats if they're just left to try and coax her from her bed. If she's in her bed, she seems happy enough for us to show her affection by stroking her but away from the bed she's wary (understandable - that's her safe space). We have been ignoring her too but this doesn't seem to trouble her.

 

So basically, do any of you wise folk have any ideas on how to start domesticating a hound that doesn't respond to treats, soft toys or praise, and wants to be outdoors all day in all weathers as long as she isn't being walked or wearing any coat?

 

We appreciate that this is early days but we seem to be going backwards and since the usual training tools don't work, we cannot see how to break the cycle of manhandling her to get her to do what we want or what's best for her. Of course, this causes yet more mistrust on her part.

Edited April 10, 2018 by WabiSabi

[Hubcitypam]

The manhandling may be part of the problem. If she is an only dog I'd quit pushing her. If she's been wheelbarrowed out she might be hesitant to return for more (sorry).

I'm gathering you are in the U.K. and it's still cold and dreary.

 

Could you go out in the yard and have a party amongst yourselves with your backs to her and if you see if she's interested when you toss treats to either side? If you get her progressively closer then pet and praise her but don't look her in the eye. That was big in my two spooky/shy girls that came from almost the same situation as yours. Be very patient. Reverse to get her back in. I think if you can get a dog door or work out an 'open the door To "go about your business for 20 minutes" with food down plan she will come in to eat eventually. It's like the old saw that you never see skeletons of cats that wouldn't come down from trees.

The very timid ones will often come to you if you don't push them. Forget the coat for now.

Greyhounds here grow up outdoors 24/7 without coats in freezing weather on farms. They do have dog houses filled with straw and their siblings when young.

I don't know much but that's what I've found. Best of luck to you and your girlie and adapt my as needed.

[WabiSabi]

The manhandling may be part of the problem. If she is an only dog I'd quit pushing her. If she's been wheelbarrowed out she might be hesitant to return for more (sorry).

 

I'm gathering you are in the U.K. and it's still cold and dreary.

 

Could you go out in the yard and have a party amongst yourselves with your backs to her and if you see if she's interested when you toss treats to either side? If you get her progressively closer then pet and praise her but don't look her in the eye. That was big in my two spooky/shy girls that came from almost the same situation as yours. Be very patient. Reverse to get her back in. I think if you can get a dog door or work out an 'open the door To "go about your business for 20 minutes" with food down plan she will come in to eat eventually. It's like the old saw that you never see skeletons of cats that wouldn't come down from trees.

 

The very timid ones will often come to you if you don't push them. Forget the coat for now.

 

Greyhounds here grow up outdoors 24/7 without coats in freezing weather on farms. They do have dog houses filled with straw and their siblings when young.

 

I don't know much but that's what I've found. Best of luck to you and your girlie and adapt my as needed.

 

 

Thanks. That's useful.

 

Yes, we were/are very uncomfomfortable with the manhandling but were advised by the organisation we adopted her from that in the short term, manhandling would be necessary in these circs. Maybe the ideas are different here in the UK rather than the US : ??

 

We've tried the ignoring and lobbing treats around but most of the time, she's just not interested.

 

It's reassuring though that your shy girls responded to this in the end.

 

I think she's treating us mean to keep us keen

[Hubcitypam]

I think she's treating us mean to keep us keen

you're a poet and you didn't know it. I know "don't look her in the eye"s sounds weird but especially my beautiful Bella (in my signature) had a mantra of "If you can't see me you you can't scare me"....whatever sense that makes. She was the one that would only eat in the kitchen after dark after the other dogs and I would go to sleep.

[JohnF]

OK.... try to remember this already-timid Greyhound has just lost her whole world and been 'kidnapped' into a totally alien one. You're hoping that she will work it out like a human, or even that 'Stockholm Syndrome' is going to kick-in almost at once. It seldom does until the dog has had a chance to prove to herself that her bed/crate area is a genuinely safe place. Wheelbarrowing her out of there must be so frightening. Get her a 6ft training lead and clip it on in a nice calm friendly non-stressed voice, say 'come on - let's go...' and with the gentlest of tugs she should follow you. There should be no need to let her off this lead even to do her 'business'. After a day our two you may find you only need the lead to get her to go out. They are ultra sensitive to stressed voices. We were filling out a tedious government form the other day and arguing a bit over it... Peggy left the room and went under my computer table as a coping-strategy or displacement activity.

 

I would urge you to look up dog body language, particularly what is misleadingly called 'calming' signals. These are stress-avoidance signs which indicate that the dog is troubled and needs the trouble-source to react in a nicer way to show that it understands how the dog feels. We can even do the 'Lick lips, yawn and look away' response ourselves to show that we 'get it'.

 

Anyway have a read of this article:

[WabiSabi]

OK.... try to remember this already-timid Greyhound has just lost her whole world and been 'kidnapped' into a totally alien one. You're hoping that she will work it out like a human, or even that 'Stockholm Syndrome' is going to kick-in almost at once. It seldom does until the dog has had a chance to prove to herself that her bed/crate area is a genuinely safe place. Wheelbarrowing her out of there must be so frightening. Get her a 6ft training lead and clip it on in a nice calm friendly non-stressed voice, say 'come on - let's go...' and with the gentlest of tugs she should follow you. There should be no need to let her off this lead even to do her 'business'. After a day our two you may find you only need the lead to get her to go out. They are ultra sensitive to stressed voices. We were filling out a tedious government form the other day and arguing a bit over it... Peggy left the room and went under my computer table as a coping-strategy or displacement activity.

 

I would urge you to look up dog body language, particularly what is misleadingly called 'calming' signals. These are stress-avoidance signs which indicate that the dog is troubled and needs the trouble-source to react in a nicer way to show that it understands how the dog feels. We can even do the 'Lick lips, yawn and look away' response ourselves to show that we 'get it'.

 

Anyway have a read of this article:

 

 

 

I am genuinely grateful for your input John, and thanks for the link. FWIW, we've done our research and know that many greys take a while to acclimatise to their new surroundings. It's just that what we're experiencing seems a little bit more extreme than the usual adaptation problems. We were not expecting her to act like a human or for Stockholm syndrome to kick in. We are aware of dog psychology and how we should not expect them to respond in the same way as a human would. We were told to wheelbarrow her by the adoption agency. It made us feel sick thinking about how it must have made our hound feel.

 

We've tried the gentle tugs on a longer leash but she does not shift. She will not willingly go for a walk. If we put the leash on in the house, she will not come with us outside. If she's in our muddy garden (it's being landscaped at the moment) she will only do anything off the leash. If we put the leash on outside, she will not budge from where she's standing, including to toilet. My jaw is aching from all the lip-licking and yawning I'm doing (I jest but, you know...).

 

I'm not being ungrateful here John - I hope you can see that. I've also got a tendency to write forum posts that come over a bit passive-aggressive (!) but it's not intentional. I can assure you that we've read about and tried the usual tactics to try to encourage her but none of them have worked thus far.

 

If it's just a matter of patience on our part and there are no other techniques we could try, then so be it. We'll continue to be patient, continue to yawn and lick our lips, and I'll stay as much out her sight as possible.

[Hubcitypam]

You can also put an old (or dollar store- do they have them there?) four ft. leash or on her under supervision and let her get used to dragging it around. without tugging on it. Then if you pick up the end (for seconds at first and if she'll allow longer wanderer aimlessly around the house- not out the door all at once) then drop it. THEN you move to the dreaded steps and great outdoors.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Hubcitypam

[LBass]

I've got a boy with a similar background--bred to race, sent to a racing kennel where he proved way too scared of everyone to be a candidate for racing. He spent several months at the kennel farm where everyone concentrated on loving on him. The thing that made him reachable in the end was the he loves LOVES being petted and getting attention. I adopted him from the racing kennel and he fairly quickly accepted me. He remains frightened of people he doesn't know and generally rather timid. Your girl sounds even more frightened than my Spirit.

 

One approach I'd suggest you try is to spend as much completely undemanding time with her as you can. Time in which you are not expecting anything of her, not trying to interact with her, not even looking at her. Read, chat quietly, watch television, play cards--you get the idea--you are quietly, undemandingly, and unthreateningly in her presence. Perhaps offer extremely high value treats quietly tossed or rolled toward her. You are already geared up to be patient and I think that will pay off in the end.

 

I hope you will find the key to this girl's heart and head.

[WabiSabi]

You can also put an old (or dollar store- do they have them there?) four ft. leash or on her under supervision and let her get used to dragging it around. without tugging on it. Then if you pick up the end (for seconds at first and if she'll allow longer wanderer aimlessly around the house- not out the door all at once) then drop it. THEN you move to the dreaded steps and great outdoors.

 

 

I've got a boy with a similar background--bred to race, sent to a racing kennel where he proved way too scared of everyone to be a candidate for racing. He spent several months at the kennel farm where everyone concentrated on loving on him. The thing that made him reachable in the end was the he loves LOVES being petted and getting attention. I adopted him from the racing kennel and he fairly quickly accepted me. He remains frightened of people he doesn't know and generally rather timid. Your girl sounds even more frightened than my Spirit.

 

One approach I'd suggest you try is to spend as much completely undemanding time with her as you can. Time in which you are not expecting anything of her, not trying to interact with her, not even looking at her. Read, chat quietly, watch television, play cards--you get the idea--you are quietly, undemandingly, and unthreateningly in her presence. Perhaps offer extremely high value treats quietly tossed or rolled toward her. You are already geared up to be patient and I think that will pay off in the end.

 

I hope you will find the key to this girl's heart and head.

 

Thanks both.

[cmc333]

Our first grey was a very scared tuxedo girl. She had never raced; apparently the whole litter had gone to a new trainer and the new trainer actually did abuse them. The entire litter was given back to be adopted at a little over a year old.

 

We almost gave Gypsy back because for two weeks we couldn't get any responses from her. We didn't even try to take her for a walk; we had a fenced in backyard and we would open the door for her to go out and then we'd have to leave the door open for her to wander in when she wanted. The day we had arranged to take her back to the adoption group, I was crying because I hated doing it and she came in the bedroom and semi play-bowed to me. You could see how scared she was and she was so brave doing that. I decided we would try harder and longer. What finally worked for us was basically ignoring her. She had her big pillow in a corner of the living room and her crate in the 3rd bedroom. If we caught her looking at us, we'd just smile and say something like "pretty girl Gyps" or sometimes just Hi Gypsy. We would throw treats at her. Sometimes when she walked past, we'd reach out and pet her. We did everything at her speed. She very slowly came around to me first and it took about 3 years for her to be totally comfortable with DH. It took a lot of very small baby steps but in the end she was not afraid of anything and showed us love all the time. We lost her to osteo at 10 years old and I still get teary-eyed thinking about how brave this scared little thing was, trying to show me she would try if I would give her more time.

[WabiSabi]

Our first grey was a very scared tuxedo girl. She had never raced; apparently the whole litter had gone to a new trainer and the new trainer actually did abuse them. The entire litter was given back to be adopted at a little over a year old.

 

We almost gave Gypsy back because for two weeks we couldn't get any responses from her. We didn't even try to take her for a walk; we had a fenced in backyard and we would open the door for her to go out and then we'd have to leave the door open for her to wander in when she wanted. The day we had arranged to take her back to the adoption group, I was crying because I hated doing it and she came in the bedroom and semi play-bowed to me. You could see how scared she was and she was so brave doing that. I decided we would try harder and longer. What finally worked for us was basically ignoring her. She had her big pillow in a corner of the living room and her crate in the 3rd bedroom. If we caught her looking at us, we'd just smile and say something like "pretty girl Gyps" or sometimes just Hi Gypsy. We would throw treats at her. Sometimes when she walked past, we'd reach out and pet her. We did everything at her speed. She very slowly came around to me first and it took about 3 years for her to be totally comfortable with DH. It took a lot of very small baby steps but in the end she was not afraid of anything and showed us love all the time. We lost her to osteo at 10 years old and I still get teary-eyed thinking about how brave this scared little thing was, trying to show me she would try if I would give her more time.

 

Heartbreaking, but thank you.

 

I suspect I've done a lot of damage with the lifting and wheelbarrowing. I hope she sees fit to forgive in time.

[MaryJane]

As some have noted, you need to give her time and her own space. Ignore her and let her come to you, she will eventually. Talk to her but, wait for her to make the first steps for attention.

 

I suggest getting a harness (some have the ability to semi-lift the dog) and leaving it on her and just attach a leash to it when you need to take her out. When you take her out, just stand in some spots without doing anything and let her sniff the air and get used to the surroundings. Take cheese with you to entice her to come back in the house with you so that you are not pulling at her.

[JohnF]

>> If it's just a matter of patience on our part and there are no other techniques we could try, then so be it. We'll continue to be patient, continue to yawn and lick our lips, and I'll stay as much out her sight as possible. >>

 

Now there's a potential insight: you might like to think about how not being 'judgementally' in her sight, but instead be carrying on doing your own things which she may seek to encounter at her own pace. There are obvious things like not sitting where you appear to the threatening free access to a door out of the room. You have to establish and keep to your own routine before she can attempt to fit in with it. If only Greyhound induction into a new home could be like an app game with levels to achieve it would be easier for the spooky ones.

 

Your wife may have inadvertently made her less trustful of you. Try asking your wife to be especially nice to you so as not to give the impression to the dog that you might be a 'problem' person. Total harmony, regular routine, dog provided for, dog can join in at her own speed. Good luck

Edited April 10, 2018 by JohnF

[WabiSabi]

>> If it's just a matter of patience on our part and there are no other techniques we could try, then so be it. We'll continue to be patient, continue to yawn and lick our lips, and I'll stay as much out her sight as possible. >>

 

Now there's a potential insight: you might like to think about how not being 'judgementally' in her sight, but instead be carrying on doing your own things which she may seek to encounter at her own pace. There are obvious things like not sitting where you appear to the threatening free access to a door out of the room. You have to establish and keep to your own routine before she can attempt to fit in with it. If only Greyhound induction into a new home could be like an app game with levels to achieve it would be easier for the spooky ones.

 

Your wife may have inadvertently made her less trustful of you. Try asking your wife to be especially nice to you so as not to give the impression to the dog that you might be a 'problem' person. Total harmony, regular routine, dog provided for, dog can join in at her own speed. Good luck

 

Thanks again, John.

[cmc333]

 

Heartbreaking, but thank you.

 

I suspect I've done a lot of damage with the lifting and wheelbarrowing. I hope she sees fit to forgive in time.

Dogs are very forgiving. Just take it slow and easy. Let her come to you. Patience is a virtue!

[NeylasMom]

Honestly, it sounds like she may be a spook. Spooks almost inevitably do better in a home with other greyhounds. If that's the case with yours I would suggest the kinder thing to do for her would be to ask the group to place her in a home with other dogs and give you a more confident dog. If you know someone you could dog-sit for, maybe through your group, that would be a good way to test the theory. Otherwise, pharmaceutical intervention is worth considering.

[smurfette]

You can try to sit in the same room as her, on the floor, with your back to her. Take a book with you or something else silent. Prepared for a long sit in. When you have some really great treats like smelly cheese you can lay it next to you (as long as your arm reaches, next one a little nearer...).

Than wait until she approaches you. Use the back of your hand for contact - It's less scary.

 

I know a woman who works with severly abused dogs. She spends days sitting like this in her living room, even sleeping on the floor. They come around - always. But you need patience and time.

[greysmom]

Racing breeders here talk about dogs who are just fearful and anxious - called spooks mostly - and many times they suspect it is a genetic predisposition, rather than a behavioral issue, as they often will have whole litters that they see turn out this way. We also had a dog like this. It can be very frustrating, but you can get through this. It takes a LOT of patience and a LOT of time. Only you can assess if you and your wife have that kind of committment to give. It's not a fault if you can't - many don't - and returning her to go to a more experienced home may be the best for her. My reservation comes in that the advice you got from your adoption group was not useful (and might have caused things to be worse), so I'm not sure her going back there would be a good thing.

 

Firstly, lower your expectations for what you think a dog needs to do or be. A spook has different wants and needs. It also helps to consider this as a "mental illness" rather than a behavioral issue. Spooks really can't help being the way they are - everything (everything) is scary. Everything. Is. Scary. Just imagine how much anxiety that produces - her little body is literally flooded with anxiety hormones 24/7, living in complete panic mode and never being able to relax. Every single thing she's come to rely on has been taken away and replaced by things and people that scare her.

 

What worked for us is to simply ignore the dog. Let her establish a safe space in your house, and let her just stay there. She doesn't need to walk, and she will usually tell you when she wants to go out - which won't be very often. As long as your garden is completely secure, and you have the time and the weather isn't bad, just let her out there on her own and let her come back in when she wants. The other thing to try for toiletting is a harness she can wear all the time rather than a collar, and a very long (like 15 or 20 feet) training lead. My dogs have all considered being attached to a harness as completely different than a collar. She may be more inclined to do her business that way.

 

You will often need to wait twice or three times as long as you think you should need to for her to do anything. With out girl, in the beginning, it took upwards of 45 minutes for her to decide it was OK to come downstairs or come in from outside or go potty. Once she got more comfortable it got down to 20 minute windows.

 

Visit her in her safe spot a non-threatening manner many times a day, and toss her really super yummy treats (not ordinary store treats - roasted chicken, cheese, cut up sausages - really high value). Sit with her quietly, reading or doing small projects, not making eye contact. Let her decide when and how to get attention. The first time our girl actually came up and asked for a pet (after more than a year) I cried my eyes out.

 

A couple other things to add - Get a couple DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromones) diffusers for the house, and maybe have her wear a DAP collar too. If she'll come out of her safe spot to eat, you can *try* hand feeding her. If she doesn't want to eat from your hand, just let it go. With spooks, trying over and over doesn't help.

 

Lastly, talk with your vet about a course of anti anxiety medication. In our experience, UK vets are not as familiar as US vets in using anxiety medications to help in canine behavior modification. If your vet isn't, you should ask for a referral to a canine neurologist or another vet that can help you manage medication for your girl. It can be along road of trying different meds, since we don't understand how or why they work in dogs in the first place. What finally worked for our girl was Trazadone, and many people have had good success with it.

 

This website is also really really good for working with fearful dogs.

http://fearfuldogs.com/

[robinw]

I live with one of those! Relax and take it slow. Let her set the pace and come to you, rather than the other way around. Don't manhandle her and don't put demands on her. She will come around, but be patient and gentle

[WabiSabi]

Any tips on how to get her in now? It's 9pm here. She's been out in the garden in the rain for 2 hours but will not come in for food or treats.

 

She is immovable when she has a leash on. She does not respond to gentle cajoling. Strangely, she ate a high-value treat out of our hands earlier whilst in the garden, which was a first. Those same treats aren't enough to get her through the back door, though. I'm out of sight in the living room and my better half is well away from the hound but to no avail.

Edited April 10, 2018 by WabiSabi

[Hubcitypam]

Maybe put high value treats possibly (including dollops of wet food on small plates) in intervals from the door to her safe spot than go about your business for a bit? Dunno.

[WabiSabi]

Maybe put high value treats possibly (including dollops of wet food on small plates) in intervals from the door to her safe spot than go about your business for a bit? Dunno.

 

That's what we've done - mixed chopped hotdog sausage and moist kibble from the back door to her den. She hovers at the back door and doesn't come over the threshold. She whines hoping we'll cave in and lob her her treat.

 

Last night, she was out for over 4 hours and it took til midnight before out of desperation, my better half had to lift her to bring her in.

 

ETA: the hotdog sausage was the treat she ate from our hands.

Edited April 10, 2018 by WabiSabi

[greysmom]

But did she go to the bathroom?

 

It's just going to take time, and doing things as gently as possible. Which may mean that you wife will go get her, talking gently, while you are out of site.

 

Walk up to her, snap on her leash (even if you don't use it), and bring her just inside the door enough to close it. Take off her leash and gently offer the high value treat she took before. Either in her hand or set it on the floor. Praise her gently. Don't pat her head, one comforting swipe on the side is less scary. Then let her go wherever she wants.

 

I forgot to mention before, she needs to be on a *very* strict schedule - mealtimes and potty times should all happen at exactly the same time every day, and everything surrounding those times needs to happen the same. She will gain confidence from knowing the schedule and how things will happen.

 

Our spook would routinely stay out in the yard, whatever the weather, for hours. The discomfort was nothing compared to the anxiety of coming inside. Plus you have to now overcome the anxiety that's happened to her since she came home. So your wife will probably be on toiletting duty for a while. I would not let her be outside for that long in bad weather though. Monitor her so you know she's gone and then do the coming in routine.

[NeylasMom]

You could try leaving a long line on her when you let her out.

[WabiSabi]

You could try leaving a long line on her when you let her out.

 

Any leash on her and she digs her heels in.

 

And in a new development, she's started barking at passers-by through our garden hedge.