tbhounds Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Any word from Dr Couto? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rennina Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Any word from Dr Couto? He won't be back until this Wednesday. So we're still waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanTanSnuggles Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Prayers for you and your Misty. Waiting is so hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rennina Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Misty is still doing well. No update from Dr. Couto because he didn't receive the cytology slides, but my vet said he sent them to him. Going to ask my vet again when I ask for the Rimadyl refill. I do have some questions to ask: Is it OK if I give her tramadol only, without the rimadyl? Or should I keep giving it in case of inflammation? Actually I didn't see a difference before and after giving her pain meds. IMO she is very pain sensitive and always let us know. When she was recovering from her spay she whimpered a lot, and I could see a difference before and after giving her pain meds. She's avoiding using that leg most of the time now, but still playful and plays with my younger dog everyday. Is OSA supposed to be very painful? Or is she actually in pain but hiding it? Anyway I'm taking her to have another set of X-rays taken next Tuesday. I will be a month since the last set. I really wish it can turn out to be something else...Fingers crossed for our girl... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If she's not using that leg she hurts. Use the Tramadol, rimadyl and I would start her on gabapentin too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rennina Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If she's not using that leg she hurts. Use the Tramadol, rimadyl and I would start her on gabapentin too. Thanks for the info! I will ask the doctor about adding gabapentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carronstar Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Is OSA supposed to be very painful? Or is she actually in pain but hiding it? When I lost Aquitaine last year, the doctor said that no matter the amount of meds I gave her, there would still be breakthrough pain. I have to assume that means the pain is quite intense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_daerr Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 If she's avoiding using that leg altogether, it is safe to say that she is in an incredible amount of pain. All of the research I've done on bone cancer (from reports of adolescents and adults with atypical cases) say that it is by far, the MOST painful type of cancer anyone could expect to have. Bones are the foundation for the body's structure and movement. Because the cancer is weakening them and eating them away from the inside out, it becomes difficult to adequately support the body during routine things. Literally, every step, even the smallest of micro movements can feel like torture. Henry stopped using his leg for about a week, just as you said. He was still running around and acting normally, but carrying the leg as if it were a piece of dead meat. He wouldn't use it at all. In fact, this was a precursor to me making the decision to amputate- he did so well maneuvering on three legs, I knew he'd adapt just fine to being a tripawd. After we did the amputation and got through the initial healing process (two weeks or so), he looked and felt a million times better. The oncologist said you'd be surprised that's how most canine amputees are. They're not traumatized over the missing leg- they're really just happy the pain is gone. Anyway, sorry for going on such a diatribe in the other direction. In a roundabout way, what I would recommend is upping the pain meds and trying to make a decision ASAP on what you want your course of action to be. I tell people in the Osteo Forum all the time that unfortunately, bone cancer isn't one of the types of cancers you can "wait and see" with. Our oncologist gives her clients a weekend to decide- schedule the amp, or schedule the euthanasia. She explained that the reason why she does this is that too many people take the dogs home and try to let them live out the final weeks/months of their lives. Yes, they might get a little bit extra time, but many end up passing suddenly and agonizingly after a catastrophic break. Still thinking about you guys and sending hugs that it's another weird one-off thing and not the dread O-monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muscovy Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I am very late to this thread, and I'm definitely no vet, but when I read Misty's history it reminded me so much of my boy Ted that I thought I'd better comment. When he was about 6 months old he was tearing around the park at a break-neck speed, and suddenly he started yelling in pain and shaking and wouldn't stand on one of his back legs. Off to our regular vet who agreed it was sore but couldn't find anything wrong, so we were referred to a specialist greyhound vet here. He immediately identified what had happened. He explained that there are two "growth plates" in each of the long bones in a dogs legs. When dogs are young these growth plates are made of cartilage, and as the dog grows the bone grows out from these two areas. These cartilage areas are weaker than bone and can fracture quite easily in young, growing dogs who are allowed to run really fast (like greyhounds) as a lot of stress/pressure is put on these joins due to the speed with which greys can run. That's why young greys here is Australia are only permitted to exercise in short day runs/pens until they're 1-1.5 years old - so they're not able to get up enough speed to fracture these cartilage joins. He said our boy would never be able to race (we didn't even realise he was a greyhound at this stage - we thought he was a whippet cross and had no intention of racing him!), he prescribed pain relief and rest and said it would heal satisfactorily in about 6 to 8 weeks on its own. In the future he did have a few painful episodes with that leg, which happened if he was running flat- out, but weren't as severe as the first time. So I think it left him with a weak sport of some sort of slight deformity which sometimes caused him pain on severe exertion. (He died at 6yo from hemangiosarcoma - unrelated). Like I said, I'm no vet and I don't know much about it, and I can't make head nor tail of Misty's x-rays, but I wonder if it could be possible that something similar has happened to her, and if that could be the underlying reason for her leg pain and deformity. I really hope it's not osteo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rennina Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I talked to our regular vet about upping the pain meds but he was opposed to it. He said Misty is already on a very high dose, and he's worried about side effects. I'll ask our grey savvy vet next week when I bring her in for X-rays. What's very frustrating to me is that we don't have an 100% diagnosis. Her X-rays showed it's "highly likely" a bone tumor, but she's a 3 y.o. AKC and that makes it "very unlikely". I don't want to do a biopsy because it will certainly make her feel much worse and there's chance that it fails to give us an answer again (The FNA failed). As for decision, I've already decided not to take the amputation route. I have pet insurance for her, therefore cost wouldn't be a problem. But she stresses out at the vet and is very sensitive. When I had her spayed it was a whole week of her whimpering, shaking, and tears from both of us. I swear I regret having her spayed at that time. I have no doubt she can manage being a tripawd, but the recovering from surgery might take much longer and more miserable for her. After that there will be vet visits for chemo and rechecks, and despite all the efforts, survival time could be shorter for young Osteo dogs. I know this is a sad and disappointing decision to let her go at such a prime age, but I did think long and hard before it ((( Our grey savvy vet and her breeder also recommended not to amputate. Now I'm confused on how much pain she's suffering. She doesn't look miserable at all. I was expecting her to show signs of severe pain and thinking that would be the time I give her the strongest pain meds and let her go. But she did not. She bounced back after I stopped taking her to the vet and started her on tramadol. She only uses that leg when she's excited (sniffing the grass, playing with my other dog, etc) but I haven't heard her cry for quite a few weeks. I never believed she's a dog who can hide severe pain, or maybe I'm totally wrong? I just can't understand why she let me know she was in pain after her spay surgery, but doesn't show any other sign this time. So that's also why I'm questioning whether it's really Osteo. Anyway, I will put my bet on the next X-rays. If the lesion has crossed the border, it must be infection, isn't it? If it shows clear patterns of Osteo, or if her chest is not clear, should I arrange euthanasia immediately? (Fingers crossed it's not going to be the case....) If there's no change, I really don't know what to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greytpups Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 If she were to break her leg, she would be in a lot of pain and you could be searching for a vet in the off hours, just something to consider. Quote Jan with precious pups Emmy (Stormin J Flag) and Simon (Nitro Si) and Abbey Field. Missing my angels: Bailey Buffetbobleclair 11/11/98-17/12/09; Ben Task Rapid Wave 5/5/02-2/11/15; Brooke Glo's Destroyer 7/09/06-21/06/16 and Katie Crazykatiebug 12/11/06 -21/08/21. My blog about grief The reality is that you will grieve forever. You will not get over the loss of a loved one; you will learn to live with it. You will rebuild yourself around the loss you have suffered. You will be whole again but you will never be the same. Nor should you be the same, nor would you want to. ― Elisabeth Kübler-Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinw Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 If she were to break her leg, she would be in a lot of pain and you could be searching for a vet in the off hours, just something to consider.Very true. I've been where you are three times. I was told that our dogs are extremely stoic and are in much more pain than they let on, even with pain meds. Quote Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 To be honest I'm disappointed in your vet. First off if this is the same vet that spayed her he or she is not using a proper pain management plan. No dog should whimper for that length of time after a spay. So, it makes me wonder about the medication protocol now. Granted you can not exceed a dosage range for an NSAID but, Tramadol can be increased as well as Gabapentin. Gabapentin can be given in crazy high doses if needed. There are other medications that can be considered-Amantadine is one, buprenex, Tylenol with codine. So, you see I'm not sure what mindset your vet has. Also, why wouldn't you amp? I'm not saying that's what you should do as I will respect your decision but, it should be your decision not your vets. The fact that she gets upset at the vets should not be the reason. She could be admitted at a University level setting and she would be placed on a constant rate infusion drip of pain meds--she would be totally relaxed with that. She's in pain. IMHO you should either move forward with treatment or sad to say you may need to make the decision to let her go (which would be an incredible shame without really knowing what her true affliction is). Please understand this post is only meant to help and not to be taken negatively. I--we only want to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45MPHK9 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 You need a new vet ASAP. You are the only voice your dog has. Use it. Quote Tricia with Kyle, our senior mutt dog Always missing Murray Maldives, Bee Wiseman, River, Hopper, Kaia, and Holly Oaks Holly“You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.“ -Bob Dylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carronstar Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 To be honest I'm disappointed in your vet. First off if this is the same vet that spayed her he or she is not using a proper pain management plan. No dog should whimper for that length of time after a spay. So, it makes me wonder about the medication protocol now. Granted you can not exceed a dosage range for an NSAID but, Tramadol can be increased as well as Gabapentin. Gabapentin can be given in crazy high doses if needed. There are other medications that can be considered-Amantadine is one, buprenex, Tylenol with codine. So, you see I'm not sure what mindset your vet has. Also, why wouldn't you amp? I'm not saying that's what you should do as I will respect your decision but, it should be your decision not your vets. The fact that she gets upset at the vets should not be the reason. She could be admitted at a University level setting and she would be placed on a constant rate infusion drip of pain meds--she would be totally relaxed with that. She's in pain. IMHO you should either move forward with treatment or sad to say you may need to make the decision to let her go (which would be an incredible shame without really knowing what her true affliction is). Please understand this post is only meant to help and not to be taken negatively. I--we only want to help. You need a new vet ASAP. You are the only voice your dog has. Use it. What they said. These dogs are SO stoic. I understand the thought process for this is killing you emotionally, we all do. If we could fix it for any of us we would. All we can do is go through it virtually together. If you have to let her go, is there a homecare vet or a service that will come to you and do it at home so there is less stress for all involved? Needless to say, this completely sucks for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_daerr Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Whatever you decide to do treatment-wise is an entirely personal decision. If you don't want to pursue amputation, for whatever reason, that's your choice to make. I've always said that if cancer hit in my AKC boy (Truman) instead of my other dog, I'm not sure if we would've gone the amp route. He's so sensitive and jumpy. He freaks out if you touch him the wrong way, so as you said, all the repeat chemo appointments, bloodwork, chest x-rays, everything. It would've been a rough road. I agree with the others, though, and echo the idea that you need a new vet. I've never seen a vet allow a dog with a suspected bone tumor to go this long without a definite treatment plan- whether it be amp and chemo or palliative treatment (pain management, bone-strengthening meds, radiation, herbal remedies, and eventually euthanasia). There has to be some type of way to sedate her so that she can be comfortable and you can get a definite diagnosis. I don't think you have been offered enough options by your current vet. If she has a decent policy with pet insurance, my idea would be to find a really good oncologist. As Tracy said, it will probably be on the university level. Ask if they'll do a phone consultation with you. Explain everything and see what they recommend. I certainly wouldn't make any rash decisions until you know something for sure, but on that same token, I also wouldn't let it continue much longer (especially if she's no longer using the leg). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) You can get an anti-anxiety med like Trazodone to give before she ever gets to the vet so that she is not terrified upon arrival. You would need to discuss a plan so that whatever you give won't interfere with the meds they would use to sedate her and you would ideally try it at home first to make sure it does calm her and doesn't cause an odd reaction. There is no reason a dog needs to be that traumatized at the vet with the medications available to us now. If you're not working with a specialist (other than Dr. Couto) then I would suggest doing that asap. Medicate her, let them sedate her and do the tests you need to get answers, whether that's new x-rays, a CT scan, and/or a biopsy. FYI, there is reason to do the biopsy even though the FNA didn't give you answers. A biopsy can still come back uncertain, but if done properly I think you're more likely to get answers than with an FNA, especially one that didn't get a good sample. ETA: I respect your decision not to amputate. I made the same choice for my girl because she was also quite fearful at the vet. And days of recovery from surgery plus follow-up visits and chemo like you said is a lot more than a visit or two to get a dx. But just so you can get some answers, medicate her. If she weren't so young I might not feel so strongly, but she's 3 with many good years ahead of get if this isn't osteo. However, if it is, keeping get in pain isn't fair. And no good vet will tell you to worry aboutbside effects when managing the pain from a terminal, and quite painful disease. As tbhounds said, the NSAID you need to be more careful about, but Tramadol and Gabapentin can be given at fairly high doses, often with minimal side effects. Also, Gabapentin has a short half life so dosing should be more frequent, as often as 4x/day. If you are only giving something like 100 mg 2x/day, that is nothing. Edited December 12, 2015 by NeylasMom Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlies_Dad Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 New vet is needed now. You know your pup better than your vet. As for amp or not, these pups bounce back from it much faster than you think and it is truly surprising. Chemo is not a big deal either as most pups handle it fine. Like others have stated it's her age and unknown diagnosis that is gutting. She should have many more good years ahead of her. For now though, pain management is key. Quote Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge. Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rennina Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Wow...okay definitely looking for a new vet from now. I'll get her pain management right, as you all have suggested. Thanks again folks. I really appreciate it your input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinw Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Wow...okay definitely looking for a new vet from now. I'll get her pain management right, as you all have suggested. Thanks again folks. I really appreciate it your input Just a reminder...at the risk of sounding harsh; if it's osteo, she isn't going to recover. Her pain can only worsen. I've seen so many dogs whose lives have been prolonged because their people can't let go. I certainly understand but it isn't doing the dog any favours. Like I've said, I've been through this three times and it never gets easier. You are in my thoughts Quote Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rennina Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I have very sad news: Misty was diagnosed with OSA by both Dr. Barr and Dr. Couto. We did new X-rays that turned out showing obvious patterns. The cytology slides sent to Dr. Couto also confirmed the diagnosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_daerr Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 So sorry for this news. I was really holding out hope for a better outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradymom Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I have been following and I am so very sorry to see the diagnosis. Quote The handsome boy Brady, mid-morning nap. The sun, the sun feels so, so, so good. I can't keep my eyes open ... ... Retirement agrees ... ... and the Diva Ms India, 2001 - 10/16/2009 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Oh no--I was really hoping it would be anything but. I'm terribly sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 I'm so sorry. I had really hoped it wouldn't be osteo in this case. Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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