My Greyhound Bit Me...

[silverfish]

You have had some excellent advice. I agree with all of those who said things like:

 

I agree with k9soul. Using aggressive training with a timid dog just seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

Without wishing to sound offensive - being blunt, I suppose - what you have been doing is teasing your dog. He is responding in a frustrated, confused way and has finally had enough.

I know you are not doing it on purpose and I know that it's the last thing you intend to do, but the way you have been going about his training has unfortunately had this result. From his point of view, this is what he sees: you give him his food, you mess with it, you behave aggressively to him, and then when he reacts in the only way dogs can, you 'go nuts' and take it away again. You also behave in a very threatening way. As he sees it, he is trying to survive and defend himself.

 

Please don't read this as being harsh, I'm simply trying to show you how it seems from your dog's point of view. Reading through what you've said below, it sounds as if you have been less than consistent and have seriously confused him.

It's not as bad as all that, though. All you need to do to recover is to read up on dog body language (there are a lot of good books out there like 'Bones Rain From The Sky' and 'The Other End of the Leash') and start again. Do all the things you have been doing with hand feeding and hand on him while he's eating, but instead of your fingers in his food, toss something extra in from a little distance away. Instead of getting in his face, work on earning his trust - others have already gone through this process, so I don't need to.

Don't ever take food away from him unless there's a VERY good reason, like he's picked up a chicken bone while out walking. If you begin again from the beginning and get him nice and relaxed with eating his dinner, and then use the 'trading up' method for de-sensitising his reaction to your approaching when he's eating high value treats, this should soon be quite possible without a struggle. I've had two dogs with so-called 'food aggression' and have successfully got them past it to the point where I can take anything away when necessary. It's all about mutual respect and trust.

As for growlng over high value treats, by the way, with a few dogs you may have to compromise: if there is something they won't behave well with, you either leave them well alone until they have finished, or you don't give them that particular treat.

Thanks for the input, all. I've tried so hard to find a balance between the positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. There are so many different schools of thought, and I can't figure out what he needs from me. The information available on the internet is so overwhelming, and everyone agrees that their method is best, and all methods are VASTLY different. Makes me very grateful for the resource of GreyTalk. I'm starting to feel really guilty now for doing the "alpha" thing, but that's what so many trainers and dog lovers have told me to do! Sorry for being so scattered, I'm just still really emotional about it. I feel horrible that I can't communicate to him that he's safe and loved with me. It's not like I hit and yell at him all the time, he gets walks and cuddles and playtime whenever he wants them, and he ALWAYS gets fed. I have never taken his food away unless he's growled (because this is what I was told to do by other dog people around me at the time/the internet).

 

The crazy thing is, I did do the nice and gentle thing, or so I thought. He'd eat out of my hand, he'd eat with me sitting next to him, and we'd gotten to a great point where he'd eat out of his bowl and I could put my hand in, and it didn't bother him at all. This seems to have come out of nowhere.

 

As far as the backing off when he growls, won't that just teach him that growling gets him what he wants? Me away from his bowl?

 

I can certainly try working on letting him eat in peace, throwing treats in his bowl, etc. I'm willing to try anything. I just don't want to reinforce his negative behavior with giving him what he wants, which is me backing away.

 

Burpdog, he's on medication for low thyroid. I had his T4 panel done because I thought maybe that's where these issues were coming from. He was low thyroid and has been on meds since February or so, but no behavior changes that I've noticed.

[greytpups]

The only point I want to add is that some people mentioned they let the dog eat without bothering them. I like to be able to take something from their mouth. On walks with 3 dogs, one has picked something up off the ground and tried to eat it. I can quickly grab it out of their mouth or say no so they don't eat it. Once I pulled out some chicken with bones in it.

 

Yes, I know I should watch more closely, and I really try to, but occasionally...

[BatterseaBrindl]

Great advice given by many people.

 

Jus curious...

Can you 'trade up' his food bowl or other treats for another high-value treat?

[Batmom]

Some great advice above.

 

In brief, I might continue some hand feeding but wouldn't require any special behaviors before putting his bowl down, and once I put the bowl down, I'd leave him alone until he's done with it. No yelling or scolding or pushing .

 

For stolen things that you really want him to drop rather than eat, I'd start work on some very very simple "drop it!" (trading up) exercises, starting with that old classic, a washcloth . (If he happens to like washcloths, you'll have to pick something else -- something he could not care less about.) I begin by placing the totally undesirable, uninteresting object in front of the dog, waiting a couple seconds, and then it rapid succession saying cheerfully, "Drop it!", pick it up, "Good boy!", deliver a tiny delectable treat that you don't use for anything else, and put the washcloth right back in front of him. I do this 5-6 times in a row, at least once a day, until the dog is instantly looking at me (and perhaps salivating) before "Drop it!" is all the way out of my mouth. Since your washcloth is harmless, at the end of the exercise just leave it right there in front of him. You want him to think, "How cool is this? I get a great treat and some praise for letting her borrow my object for a second, and she always gives it back!"

 

That instant, cheerful response on the dog's part can take a week or more tho usually only a few days. Then I up the ante to some old toy that maybe he's nosed a time or two but doesn't much care for. Or maybe an old smelly sock. Repeat repeat repeat. Verrrrrrrrrrry slowly increasing the desirability of objects you give him until you're working with toys that he really likes. Note that I never work on this with things like rawhides, turkey necks, etc. I don't want to take those away unless it's an emergency, and at that time I want to rely on his beautifully conditioned, frequently practiced, "Drop it!" response. Does it work in time of need? You betcha :) .

 

A related thing is "Leave it," which I use for turning away from an object on the ground -- an object the dog doesn't have but is perhaps making a beeline for. I start training that essentially the same way, by putting on the floor/ground something that the dog might have a mild interest in. Proceed similarly as above, except that the response you're looking for is the dog turning back to you when you say "Leave it." At which time you deliver the great treat and "Good dog!"

Edited October 11, 2014 by Batmom

[Tracey]

You've gotten lots of good advice. I can only share what has worked for me. Our boy Rufus is food aggressive and we have 3 other Greys as well, all of whom have been bitten by Rufus over food.

 

The routine now is, anything that has to do with food - dog food or people food - Rufus gets muzzled. For dog feeding time, I gate Rufus in the dining room with his muzzle on. It is adjacent to the kitchen so he can see what's going on. When the food is ready and Rufus is calm, I take off his muzzle, put his bowl down on his side of the gate and walk away. When everyone is done eating Rufus gets let out.

 

I've been battling Rufus over this for almost 5 years. It's gotten better, but now and then one of the other dogs was still getting bitten. So I finally gave up trying to train him out of it. It wasn't fair to the other dogs because Rufus would be good for six months or so and then someone would get chomped. So I just changed the routine and came up with a method where Rufus simply isn't able to bite anyone over their food any more. Once meal time is over he's fine, so this has been the best solution. We just had a friend stay with the dogs for four days and i left her detailed feeding instructions. She followed them and had no problem. So, while I haven't figured out how to resolve Rufus's issues, I have figured out how to avoid them. And I guess that's the next best thing.

[Guest greyhound_in_LA]

How to balance positive and negative reinforcement? First of all, understand that negative reinforcement is not the same as positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is the removal of something to reinforce a desired behavior. (And I don't think negative reinforcement works that well on dogs as it does on kids. I remove X task from my kid's daily lineup if he does his one worksheet of math early and doesn't complain, for example.)

 

If someone came and took my dish away while I was eating, I would be upset, too, or weirded out. It's simply a weird thing to do to a dog or to anyone.

 

Lots and lots of dog resource-guard bones and toys, and if this guarding is indeed a problem, then I would always recommend working with a behaviorist or a real BAT trainer to manage the guarding. Not eliminate, just manage. Sometimes these guarding issues are not going to be eliminated or extinguished in the dog, so it's better to come up with a management plan.

[GeorgeofNE]

I'm so sorry for your stress, but you're creating this problem.

 

Leave him ALONE when he's eating.

 

Could he possibly have made it any more clear?

 

If he has a bone, and you need to take it away, use the "trade up" method (give him something else in exchange for the bone).

 

Thyroid problems rarely cause personality problems. True fact! It's not really one of the symptoms in fact-- In any case, for your situation, I'm guessing he DOESN'T have a thyroid problem and because he's being medicated for one, he's gone a bit loopy! If your vet was not aware of what is a normal reading in a Greyhound, he/she probably put him on meds that he doesn't need.

 

Sadly, I think this situation may have taken a bad turn. Sounds to me like you're afraid of him. If that's the case, you might consider returning him to the group you got him from. This is not the right type of dog for a first time dog owner.

[silverfish]

 

Sadly, I think this situation may have taken a bad turn. Sounds to me like you're afraid of him. If that's the case, you might consider returning him to the group you got him from. This is not the right type of dog for a first time dog owner.

 

I don't think this situation is irredeemable. I think the OP just needs to take a deep breath, read the responses on this thread and try again. I think once she understands what her dog is saying to her and applies the advice given here, her dog will respond well.

 

As for it not being the right type of dog for a first time owner, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean greyhounds, or just a dog who is willing to growl and snap to get his point across? Our first dog was a greyhound. I made a lot of mistakes with him, but we learned together and he turned out to be absolutely the BEST dog and a very, very loving companion. He wasn't the type to growl or snap, but many dogs are. As a dog owner, my philosophy is to try to understand and work with the ones I take on. I believe most people can do that, if they are willing to educate themselves.

 

If the OP is genuinely afraid of her dog, that's different. But I didn't read it like that. I think the biggest thing she has to realise is that it's important not to reprimand a dog - any dog - for growling, because (as you know) once you teach a dog not to growl, that's when you get 'bites without warning'. My own feeling is that she needs to work on trust - trust works both ways, and I think she's been working more on being able to trust him than getting him to a place where he can also trust her. If that's the case, it's a fairly simple fix, in my opinion. Work on trust and mutual respect and it all falls into place.

[NeylasMom]

What do I do??? I've had my grey for over a year, and despite my best efforts his behavior seems to be getting worse. We're in a greyhound obedience training class right now, and I can just tell from the other greys that mine is unusually timid and hard to read. But I don't know if this is my fault, or if I just ended up with an unusual personality in my grey. This is my first dog, and I thought I was prepared, but I just don't know what to do. My biggest fear is that a friend or family member is going to be taking care of him for me and get bitten, and have no idea why the dog lashed out.

 

I'm sorry for such a lengthy post, I just wanted to be sure I was as clear as possible. Does anyone have any advice???

What you do is start from scratch. You've already recognized/acknowledged that the methods you've been trying haven't worked and in fact have made the problem worse so it's time to try a different approach.

 

You've already gotten a lot of good advice so I'll try to keep this concise. First, it's quite normal for a dog whose never been bothered while eating (he's always been in a crate unbothered by other dogs and people while being fed) to feel the need to protect his food. Ultimately, the behavior comes out of fear (if you come too close, you may take my food away) and all of the "stuff" you've been doing is reinforcing that fear. Think about the more recent instances that led to the bite from his perspective. Holy crap hasn't mealtime become scary? In his eyes you basically act like a crazy person. In all seriousness though, you've become completely unpredictable around something that was already an uncomfortable situation for him, his food.

 

So, back off. Put his feeder in a low traffic area where he can eat in peace, put the food bowl down, walk away and stay away until he's done and gone to settle somewhere. Make sure that you have an exit path that doesn't involve walking by your dog so you don't accidentally trigger a reaction. I would do nothing else for a long long time. You now have a lot of history where you've created this association that you + the food bowl is unpleasant so the safest thing imo is to just let him eat in peace for a long time. After some time has passed, you could try making your association with the food bowl positive, but I think it might be best for you to see a behaviorist first. The way you would do it would be to toss or drop higher value food items into his bowl while he's eating. There's no need here to make him think you control his resources, you're just teaching him that when you approach his food bowl, really good things happen. So he's eating and you toss a chunk of liverwurst, or some leftover steak scraps into his bowl and walk right on by or away again. You do this often over time, always, tossing in something amazing. Now think about what's happening from your dog's perspective. "Holy crap, not only does my food not get taken away, but something really awesome gets dropped in each time he walks by - my owner walking by while eating is something to look forward to!"

 

The reason I suggest seeing a behaviorist though is two-fold. One, he or she can teach you the subtle body language signs dogs give when they are stressed or afraid. So long before your dog ever growled or bit, he probably tensed up. When dogs are happy and relaxed, their bodies are soft and "wiggly". One of the earliest signs that something is up is a stiff body. You might see other signs, a subtle lip curl, or more likely the commissure (the corners of your dog's lips) come forward as their mouth closes tightly. You might see what's called "whale eye" where you can see the whites of the dog's eyes as he looks at you kind of sideways. These are all signs that the dog is stressed and are often precursors to more obvious "aggression". So when you started this exercise, you'd want to be well aware of these signs so you didn't move too close to your dog while missing them and provoking a growl or now bite.

 

The second reason is that you've mentioned your dog has a lot of fear issues that you haven't been all that successful working through. If these are your go to methods for working through this food issue, then there's a good chance you don't have the proper tools to deal with the fear issues either (no offense meant here, just an educated guess). Typically working through fear issues requires a lot of classical counter-conditioning (pairing the scary stuff with good things, typically food, at a safe distance and gradually increasing the exposure over time as the dog becomes more comfortable) and sometimes requires the help of natural calming aids like DAP, a thundershirt, a supplement like l-theanine or Composure or even anti-anxiety medication. An actual behaviorist is your best bet for giving you the proper help with those things.

 

And I do want to emphasize that using any sort of punishment procedures with a dog who is fearful or has anxiety issues can really throw the dog for a loop. You really want to be working with a trainer who uses force-free, reward based training methods only. If that's not the class you're in, find another one.

 

Last, but not least - it sounds like this whole issue started out of growling over high value objects like bones and rawhides. There are "trading up" exercises you can do to teach the dog to accept you taking things away from him (again by teaching him that you approaching makes good things happen). You progress through exercises where you drop goodies on the floor to get him to drop a lower value item and then immediately give that item back to him ("My person approachign when I have this thing means I get really good stuff and I get to keep my item") so that on the rare occasion when you actually do need to take it away (you would still trade for something higher value) it's not the end of the world. But again, at this point, I think you should learn how to do these exercises under the guidance of a professional. Look for someone who teaches it as a two-handed exercise as I refer to it. One hand is dropping a trail of delicious food away from the dog, which will encourage him to drop the item and continues to feed once he has while the other one is used to pick up the item and give it right back. If you aren't using both hands early on, especially in a dog with this history, you risk being bit.

 

If you aren't willing to do the behaviorist right now, I'd say avoid giving high value items unless you're willing to leave him in peace until he's done with it. If you're adamant about doing some training, let me know and maybe I can make a little video of how to do this, or find one online. My favorite article explaining this process is unfortunately though a journal that requires a subscription. '

 

I hope this is helpful. Keep us posted.

[racindog]

First I would like to know what in heck is wrong with letting a dog eat in peace? Why does anybody feel the need to screw with them while they are eating? IMO if you do that you deserve to get bit. Second you are the human and you are SUPPOSED to be in charge-the leader. They want a BENEVOLENT pack leader not somebody that teases them over their food. I doubt very seriously this dog would even ever growl at me- he would be able to tell from my demeanor that I was in charge and that I had his best interest at heart. If he did, that is OK as he would just be learning and establishing his place in our pack and once he seen that I was indeed in charge(I would not tolerate/or ignore any overt aggression) he would actually feel pretty good and wouldn't be likely to challenge again. I handle a working dog- a Belgian Malinois-aka a Maligator because of their strong biting inclination. I have never and will never screw with her while she is eating. I don't have anything to prove. And actually because of that I could walk up and take her food away without incident because she trusts me. BUT if I went to "teaching" her to let me interfere while she ate and did it over and over she would prolly mutilate my arm one day-and rightfully so. I have 3 greyhounds now and have had many over the past several years. My Minny was kicked out of his "home" for "biting" because of basically the same thing you are doing-letting the dog rule and not being a proper pack leader. Allegedly he would not let anybody on their couch and would bite them pretty good if they tried. Yet he never once in many years EVER tried to be territorial at my home. He knew it wouldn't fly with me and he didn't need to because he recognized me as the leader and he felt secure. Dogs are dogs. And think about it? How would you feel if your houndie treated you the way you have been treating him...not letting him eat in peace etc.and teasing him etc. And while I'm at it please let him sleep in peace also. It proves nothing to interrupt them abruptly while they sleep except that your not very smart if you do, hence the old saying "Let sleeping dogs lie." There is nothing wrong with your dog, absolutely nothing. In fact IMO he has demonstrated an admirable level of restraint. If you get another dog you will have the same issue-or worse-until you learn basic pack leadership skills. Its not the dog-obedience etc won't "fix" it- it is your fault and I realize it was not intentional but was just the result of inexperience. IMO you should back off of your good boy. Love on him, let him relax, while you actively proceed to learn what he NEEDS - the patricia mcConnel books are excellent. Do not get hung up in training philosophy's-keep it simple. Done right your boy will require ALMOST NO CORRECTIONS. Remember he wants to make you happy- he wants to please you. Back off all the correction crap. Learn positive reward training and seek above all to build engagement with him. If you do that everything else will come pretty easy. If you don't then well, the future don't look too bright. It might interest you to know that even the hard apprehension trained working dogs often require little correction and it is used far less than what you imagine. They do what they do as the result of drive and the desire to obtain their reward. Work on yourself, not him. You are the one who needs to learn how to handle him. He is just fine as is. While you are doing this just let him eat in peace and decompress and learn to enjoy being with you -and vice versa. Sory if I came across too strong but I get so tired of seeing the dogs blamed when it is not their fault and I figure honesty is bettter than sugar coating stuff. JMO.

[NeylasMom]

Oh, I want to add - I had overlooked the thyroid issue when I responded - that if you haven't, you should do a full thyroid panel with MSU to see what his values are. If the original dx was made based solely on a T4 and he was otherwise asymptomatic, I might actually consider taking him off of the supplementation and doing the full panel once he's been off of the meds long enough. If he isn't truly hypothyroid and you're supplementing and creating a situation where he's hyperthyroid that could not only cause serious medical issues including heart damage, but it could contribute to his behavioral issues. So I think you need to get to the bottom of that asap. If you could post his T4 value and the lab's normal range, that would be helpful.

 

As far as the alpha/dominance stuff, I'll just say that that type of training was all based on research on captive wolves, that was extrapolated to wild wolves and then to dogs, which wasn't correct at all. Thanks to David Mech, who is pretty much *the* expert on wolf behavior these days, this myth has been debunked. The truth is that all dogs learn through operant conditioning - the dog learns that his behavior has a consequence and depending on the consequence (good, bad, neutral) the dogs behavior will increase or decrease. You can just as effectively (I would argue more effectively) teach your dog the behavior you want from him by reinforcing good behavior rather than relying on fear and pain like dominance theory based training does, and without the potential fallout that comes with punishment based training (including, but not limited to increased aggression, which you're seeing and associating the punishment with you, the owner, thereby damaging your relationship wtih your dog).

 

Here are a couple of good articles debunking dominance theory if you're interested:

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html

http://thecoventryschool.com/dominance-and-the-pet-dog/

[turbotaina]

Neylasmom's advice is spot on. And she's a dog trainer, so there's that

Edited October 14, 2014 by turbotaina

[Guest k9soul]

Lovely advice Neylasmom. I agree with being more sure about the thyroid panel too, as if he is getting treated but does not actually have a problem that could contribute to anxiety and more problems.

 

Here is a nice simple little graphic on the difference between greyhound lab values and other breeds.

 

[Guest iconsmum]

Hi

Another dog trainer here...

As you can see already, advice flows and it's all a bit different. Im not adding to it except to tell you you need a trainer, in your house, who uses a positive reinforcement approach only. You're seeing what happens when a dog is dealt with heavy-handedly; it turns into a slightly less predictable, more dangerous version of itself. It certainly doesn't love you more or trust you more now so you'll have that complication to fix. Let the trainer set up the way you are to interact with your dog for now. Don't wing it. Keep in mind, you might be a wreck around your dog right now but your dog is probably way more so. Give him stability by finding a textbook trainer.

Edited October 15, 2014 by iconsmum