Unusual Behaviour On Hikes - Old, Cold, Jealous?

[krissy]

Recently Summit has been exhibiting some strange behaviour on hikes. The first time it happened in the fall I passed it off as a one off or that he really did sense something I didn't. The next few times were last week when it was quite cold and I figured he was just being a wuss (but I did still find it a little odd), but after today something is clearly up since it was above 0C.

 

What happens is we get to the conservation area and I let the dogs out of the truck. We go walking down the trail for anywhere from 2-10 minutes with no problem. He's sniffing things, trotting along, Kili is dashing back and forth like a nutcase. Then suddenly he just decides he's done and he wants to turn back. He will literally turn around and start walking back the other way down the trail. If I call him he stops and looks back at me and depending on the day might then try to continue walking back to the car until I call him again. On less severe days he'll come running back to me and we will continue walking for a little while until he again decides he wants to go back. I knew he wasn't cold today. It was 1 degree Celcius and both dogs were wearing a double layer. The puppy was not cold (and she's ALWAYS cold) and he was actually panting. I took off his coat and just left his sweater on. Seemed to help at first.

 

When we get to a point where I decide to turn around, or when we get to the end of our loop he runs down the trail. Not at full speed, sort of a lope. But definitely faster than during the rest of the hike. He WILL stop when he gets very far ahead and look back and wait for me to catch up a bit but without fail he will then start running down the trail again. He's in a BIG hurry to get back to the truck.

 

The first time this happened was back in the fall. We were still on the cusp of bear season so at first I was concerned that he sensed wildlife of some sort and that I ought to listen to him. But nothing came of it. Now the bears are definitely all hibernating. And we're talking about a conservation that does see a lot of people, and we only have black bears here so I don't think that's the issue.

 

Summit and I have ALWAYS gone for winter hikes. This is our first winter in this town, but back in Guelph we always walked trails in the winter and never had this happen. And we walked these trails extensively throughout the summer so it's not like they are new.

 

As I see it there are 3 things that have changed recently. We moved (in May). We brought Kili home (mid October). And it turned into winter (really about 3 weeks ago). Summit is also going to be 8 in May, so it's not like he's an old man but I do kind of wonder if any of this has to do with him getting older.

 

Thoughts?

[JohnF]

Not liking a much-loved hike is probably arthritis coming on up. Feed those Pedigree Joint Care chew sticks for a week and you should see an improvement. If it works get the actual supplements and add fish oil.

 

On the other hand when my Borzoi Misha refused a hike she always loved it was more serious... kidney disease had surfaced and she would have been feeling yukky and not at all in the mood.

 

It would be a good idea anyway at that age, if only to set a baseline for for future care, to have the vet do basic blood tesst including Kidney and Liver fucntion. That way you treat what's needed to be treated and don't get into expensive and often futile second-guessing everything.

[grey14me]

Maybe his eyesight? Maybe he can't see as well and it's making him nervous?

[Guest grey_dreams]

My feeling is that he can smell something that you can't. Maybe those bears are hibernating close by. Or maybe coyotes (if you have them). But something that he can smell or sense that you cannot.

[krissy]

Not liking a much-loved hike is probably arthritis coming on up. Feed those Pedigree Joint Care chew sticks for a week and you should see an improvement. If it works get the actual supplements and add fish oil.

 

On the other hand when my Borzoi Misha refused a hike she always loved it was more serious... kidney disease had surfaced and she would have been feeling yukky and not at all in the mood.

 

It would be a good idea anyway at that age, if only to set a baseline for for future care, to have the vet do basic blood tesst including Kidney and Liver fucntion. That way you treat what's needed to be treated and don't get into expensive and often futile second-guessing everything.

 

He's on J/D which is a joint diet and he gets Deramaxx on an as needed basis. Bloodwork in June was normal. I am his vet so I'd like to think I'd notice if something major was going on medically. Of course, he can be super stoic so maybe not.

 

 

Maybe his eyesight? Maybe he can't see as well and it's making him nervous?

 

He has pannus which is treated. He does have iris atrophy so he can't constrict his pupils which I know makes it hard to focus (from having my own eyes dilated in the past). However, that's nothing new summer or winter.

 

My feeling is that he can smell something that you can't. Maybe those bears are hibernating close by. Or maybe coyotes (if you have them). But something that he can smell or sense that you cannot.

 

It's possible. I find it hard to believe that the bears hibernating would make him more nervous than in the summer when they are actually active and wandering around. I think we'd be far more likely to run into them or have him smell/sense them during the summer. And it's not at any particular spot that he gets nervous which might make sense if there was a bear den nearby. The first time was way in the back of the park near the beach. The next time was actually on the main road (which is closed in winter). And today was on a completely different trail. And we've been on all these trails multiple times the last couple of weeks and he has been exhibiting this behaviour in different places each time and passing places he was previously having issues with.

 

In the spring when we walked a different trail he was getting really nervous. But then I could tell that he was nervous about something. This is more just like "I want to go back to the car". Back in the spring I first thought coyotes. Then one day I caught sight of the livestock and realized he was afraid of cows! But there's definitely no cows in this park.

[cleptogrey]

i think you answered your question in your reply- his panus, joints and maybe he just isn't tolerating the cold as well. are the days damp cold days vs dry cold days? wind chill factor plays a factor as well. have you slipped your hand under his coat to check to see if he's cold. dogs know what they need best, if he's turning back you may do well talking to your vet and describing this to him. he may need another support suppliment. i hate to say booties, they can be a pain in the .......but who knows until you try and how warm are the two coats that your layer. i would talk to my vet and take him during the brightest, least windy, driest days and let him enjoy life his way. it's always difficult when a dog slows down.

[GeorgeofNE]

My feeling is that he can smell something that you can't. Maybe those bears are hibernating close by. Or maybe coyotes (if you have them). But something that he can smell or sense that you cannot.

 

Agreed. The only time I'm ever nervous when I walk in the morning (very early, in the dark) is when George acts like he wants to turn around. I know he can either see, smell, or hear something in the woods that I can't.

[Moneypenny]

You mentioned his eyes being similar to us having our eyes dialated...is there snow on the ground? I know for me, when it is sunny with no snow and my eyes have been dialated, I can't see a thing, and the reflection from the snow might be making it even worse. Maybe try some eye coverings (doggles) to see if that helps?

[krissy]

I don't think it's the cold, at least not exclusively. The first time he did this was in late October. It wasn't even cold enough for a coat yet. The next two times were last week when it was admittedly quite cold and I figured he was just cold. Today was above 0 degrees; he started the walk with TWO layers and was panting so badly within 5 minutes and wanting to turn back that I removed his coat (leaving a sweater on him). He does have boots but his feet aren't cold when he does this. When his feet get cold he lifts them and then progresses to 3 legged hobbling until I dust them off with my gloves, then he lifts the other one. He has boots for really cold evening walks in town that I could try on him for hiking but I think we'll just end up losing them since he dislikes them.

 

Yes, his eyes are not the best however they are better than when I got him 2 winters ago and he had no issues at that time going for hikes in the snow. So I can see him not seeing as well as Kili, but not any worse than his usual which he is used to. All other indications of his vision suggest there has been no change/deterioration. It is a possibility but he gets around fine on our hikes and on leashed walks. There is no change in his ophthalmic exam this year versus last year. He has Doggles for when he hangs out with me at Ultimate tournaments (the all day UV exposure isn't good for his pannus) so I can try those on him to decrease snow glare (they're tinted lenses)... but again I think he'll just take them off on a hike as he's not a huge fan.

 

He honestly does not seem concerned or anxious. I have seen him like that when there's been something he's afraid of (gun shots, livestock). I know what he looks like when he's afraid. This is entirely different. This is like a "I just want to go back to the car now". I'm mostly wondering if people have noticed this sort of... disinterest (?) in their older hounds. I wonder too if it's jealousy over the new puppy. Also not sure if the increased frequency of walks is bumming him out. We've always hiked as often as possible, but that's historically been a few times a week. With the puppy, off leash hikes are the best way to tire her out so we go almost every day if I can get away for long enough at lunch time. Usually I swing by the house and pick up Summit on the way and we all hike for about 30-45 minutes. On the weekends we go for 60-90 minutes. So we've definitely been hiking more frequently, but those weekday hikes are really quite short, and considering our morning walks are shortened because Kili can't walk as fast, and we often don't do evening walks anymore... I can't believe that a short hike every day is an issue for him.

 

Honestly, I'm baffled.

 

So I guess on our next hike I will try him with his Doggles, boots, and pre-medicate him the night before with Deramaxx and see if there's any improvement.

[NeylasMom]

If I recall, Summit has an excellent recall so him only stopping and looking at you when you call him rather than coming to you is something of an anomoly, right? It reminds me of a hike I did with Zuri and Violet on the way to GIG last year. We were crossing over a little stream to get to an area where I could take better photos of the waterfall and Z found it too scary to cross over (it was very rocky and slippery). I called him and he tried a few times to come to me - he'd try to find a slightly different less scary route, but he'd balk each time. Eventually he just quit trying and when I went to get him, he actually started trotting away. He has NEVER done this since I've felt confident enough with his recall to let him explore on hikes - there is no doubt he knew my intent was to come leash him up and make him cross and he was too afraid to do it.

 

All of this to say, my initial thought was Summit is scared of something, even if it's just a memory of what scared him the first time this happened back in October. He wouldn't necessarily need to be showing all of his typical signs of fear - maybe the word wary is actually more appropriate. I think it's also possible there could be a pain issue, but if you are able to take walks and hikes in other places without this issue, I doubt that's it. In any event, doing what you said in the last post will help you rule that out relatively easily, which would bring me back to this being fear related.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Try a different trail and see if it's something in that particular area that's causing him to not want to walk there.

[krissy]

NeylasMom - yes, he normally comes right to me. Sometimes even normally if I just call his name he might stop and just look back at me and then I'll actually use "come" and he comes running. I think that started because I started just calling his name but not wanting him to move when I was taking photographs. But right now even if I ask him to "come" he doesn't want to.

 

We did try a different trail today. Completely different conservation park. Same problem. And this was with Deramaxx on board and I put boots on him to begin with but he kept trying to shake them off and we almost lost one completely so I took them off. They're too expensive to be losing. So I'm still not sure what the issue is. Seems like pain is somewhat ruled out. His feet could be cold but he won't tolerate his boots on a hike where he can do as he pleases, and he really isn't showing any signs of his feet being cold like he normally would.

 

He could be wary of something, but if I leash him up he walks along good as pie, doesn't try to turn around, doesn't balk.

 

No idea what's up with him. It's all very strange.

[NeylasMom]

Huh. Possible there's a pain issue that Deramaxx doesn't address. If he were starting to have LS issues for instance, Gabapentin would potentially be more effective at relieving related pain. But that wouldn't explain why he will walk willingly on lead, but not off. Unless he associates being off with running. But then why would he be comfortable trotting when you turn around to head back to the car.

 

To me it still seems like he doesn't want to go on the hike for some reason and something having scared him seems like the most reasonable explanation to me. On your next hike, why don't you try leaving him off leash, but right off the bat click and treat for any forward motion on the trail. I would specifically use the clicker. Don't call him, just wait for forward motion and click and treat. If he starts walking along pretty regularly lengthen the time between click/treats and play with it from there. See if that gets you anywhere. Thinking being if some fear memory is making him reticent, some positive reinforcement may counteract that.

 

Oh, one other question. Is there any chance that during one of your hikes when he was off lead and running toward you, Kili tried to play with him in an over-enthusiastic manner, possibly in a way that he doesn't like? I have to be careful with my recall training with Skye when we're in the dog park. Violet gets a little overaroused sometimes and likes to wrestle really roughly with Skye. A lot of times when I call Skye and she comes running, that sets Violet to chasing and pouncing on her. I noticed a time or two when Skye would start coming to me then hesitate or veer off path when she saw Violet coming so I had to adjust my training to account for that. Wondering if it's possible something like that happened and that's what Summit is remembering? You could take him out alone - just leave Kili in the car initially to see how he does, and if he does okay, then get her out and see if anything changes.

This is a mystery I really want to solve.

[RedHead]

To me (if he doesn't seem nervous or scared) it just sounds like he wants to go back to the truck! It seems like quite a few greys don't seem as keen as others for long walks or adventures. Maybe with his age he just doesn't really want to venture off too far, and has the old "horse running to the barn" thing going on. Some dogs get into their own habits on walks, and maybe this is just a new one he has picked up and repeated.

 

Does he do the same thing on loop trails, or just when you walk up, and then back on a trail? Mine do better on loop trails. If we double back on a trail, I have taught them a "Turn Around!" command, which is funny because they actually seem very excited to turn around .

 

Also, have you tried hiking with 2 or 3 other dogs that Summit really likes? Sometimes the pack mentality keeps them travelling forward. At least if you tried some of these things out you could better see if this is behavioural vs. medical.

 

He may just be a true couch potato!

[Jackandgrey]

I wonder what would happen happen if you took him without the puppy along? Eight is just not old enough to attribute this to age and you seem to have ruled out a lot of the other things.

[Hawthorn]

My feeling is that it's the increased walking that, for whatever reason, is too much for him. He's not old, but he's not young either, and maybe the extra exercise is causing him aches and pains or muscle stiffness, or maybe he just finds it boring. Speaking as someone who is middle-aged myself, I can say I that I get all sorts of aches and pains from doing things that I used to take for granted when I was younger, and that it takes me longer to recover from activity than it used to. Maybe he'd do better with the longer hikes every other day, or twice a week? Mine are the same age (just turned 8)and 20 minutes is plenty for them on a regular basis, with a longer walk (up to an hour) maybe once a week. Is he still keen on coming with you for walks when you leave home, or does he seem a bit reluctant?

[krissy]

He is not reluctant to leave the house or start out on the trails. He happily starts trotting down the trail, sniffing, peeing, doing all the usual things he does. It's somewhere between a few minutes and 15 minutes that he starts into this behaviour.

 

The puppy does occasionally get in his way, she does occasionally jump up and try to get him to play, however it is not during/after these events that he tries to turn around. Usually there is absolutely no interaction with the pup.

 

Doesn't seem to matter if the trail is a loop or not. Most trails we do are not simply one way and turn around and walk back down the exact same trail. So most of them are "loops" in some sense or another, though usually there is SOME part of the trail that is common both ways.

 

I'm sure he would like to hike with some other dogs but we really don't know anyone who actually walks their dogs, so Kili is it for doggie companions on the trails, at least until the summer when our friend moves home from school.

[a_daerr]

Since it looks like you've covered absolutely every base, at this point, I might just chalk it up to him getting older and not really having the endurance for it. Maybe just try again with him in the spring.

[cleptogrey]

sounds like he's excited about going....the car, the start, the body doesn't want to keep up w/ the mind. has your vet manipulated all of his joints? pretty important assesment, he can tell if there is something going on and where. mri and cat scans are not always necessary.