Need Advice - Incontinence

[djsgreys]

i'm stumped. I have been working with three separate adoptive homes over the last two months trying to pin down the reason behind sudden onset of incontinence in youngish male hounds. All three of these males have been in their home for a while - and this behaviour is completely new - all previously had excellent house manners. Nothing has changed in the homes to cause this to be behaviural.

 

The dogs are 4, 6 and 7. All three have been checked by vets for UTI's. They have been checked for Diabetes, blood work is all within normal ranges. Two of the three have had ultraounds. Nothing shows up. All three improved considerably when on normal course of antibiotics but soon after the antibiotic was done the incontinence returned.

 

I have suggested testing for tick born diseases in all three but for some reason all the vets shrug this off and continue to look for other reasons.

 

Any suggestions what may be behind this?

[dante2zoe]

I would be very curious to see what, if anything, is found. Goose was like this. The vet kept saying it had to be behavioral, but he would consistently improve during and for a short time after a course of antibiotics. I finally gave up and installed a dog door. That didn't discover the underlying issue, but resolved the problem, so to speak. I feel for your adopters.

 

I know George's appears to be pain or some type of inflammation related. Goose had no such issues.

 

You can tell them that at least they are not alone.

 

Cindy

[4My2Greys]

Does there happen to be a common food that is eaten by these dogs? As far as not testing for TBDs I would remind the vets who is paying them and who is paying for the tests.

 

Just wanted to add from my own experience with Nadir. First time was a dietary issue solved by eliminating rice and the second bout was pain related which has been relieved with 200mg of Gabapentin 2X a day.

Edited October 7, 2012 by 4My2Greys

[JAJ2010]

Do they all have the same vet? Have they cultureda pee sample? Maybe a solid course of antibiotics for a few months would improve this? Really have no ideas...

[djsgreys]

There is a common food - all three are on raw diets - chicken/veggie and fruit - no rice or grains.

 

The samples have been cultered - nothing shows.

[BatterseaBrindl]

Same vet for all?

 

Off topic...but why only chicken...no beef/fish... in the raw diet???

[4My2Greys]

I wasn't thinking so much rice or grains but salt content was brought up in another thread about incontinence. That's why I wondered if they were on the same kibble.

[JAJ2010]

I wonder if they are missing something in their diets... Any supplements? Many diets are iodine deficient... And if they are not rotating protein sources there could be issues.any organ meat?

 

Canned veggies?

[Batmom]

Incontinence as in dribbling while walking around and/or making puddles while asleep and unawares?

[4My2Greys]

Incontinence as in dribbling while walking around and/or making puddles while asleep and unawares?

 

Or I would add not dribbling, but making puddles while awake. Have the owners been able to witness these episodes or are they coming home to find them?

 

I wonder if they are missing something in their diets... Any supplements? Many diets are iodine deficient... And if they are not rotating protein sources there could be issues.any organ meat?

 

Canned veggies?

 

Canned vegetables do tend to have a lot of sodium.

[greyhead]

As far as not testing for TBDs I would remind the vets who is paying them and who is paying for the tests.

I've had to take this approach more than once and with more than one vet, and I highly recommend it. It wasn't necessary to be "high-handed" or hostile in tone. A simple statement that I was bringing the animal in for the test, and "what time's good for you?" was sufficient. Even when I had to endure some eye-rolling or an offensive level of professional "neutrality," no one ever refused.

 

Protatek has a greyhound package for TBD testing that's far more reasonably priced than the others I've seen. And Dr. Holland there is a dream for vets to consult.

[djsgreys]

Puddles - not dribbling but all are peeing lakes. Often though it is as soon as they wake up from a nap - they stand up and they just let go.

 

I feed the same raw product to all of my crew - and prefer poultry over beef/lamb as a protein source. Have been feeding raw for 6 years now and have never had an issue with my own dogs. Its fresh veggies/fruit - not canned and all three are supplemented with kelp and salmon oil.

[Batmom]

So, not incontinence strictly speaking, but having to pee urgently and a lot. Are the hounds in homes where water intake can be monitored / measured throughout the day? Sometimes that can provide good clues, even in a multidog household. Couple of random thoughts:

 

- If the dog is drinking 2-3 cups of water after a heavy meal, the dog may be highly inclined to snooze (heavy meal) yet will have to go out pretty urgently in 1-2 hours. Might try to address this by changing the diet so less water is drunk (don't restrict water!) and/or replacing one heavy meal with two smaller ones.

 

- If antibiotics helped, could well be there is an infection that was not cured. In this case a culture and sensitivity could be worthwhile, to determine what antibiotic should be used and for how long.

 

- If the weather has recently turned cold/rainy, the dog may not be getting as empty and therefore has to (but doesn't want to) go out more often.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Batmom

[cleptogrey]

i just looked up " how much water should a 77# dog drink" http://dogblog.ruffwear.net/2010/04/09/how-much-water-should-a-dog-drink-in-a-day/, has an appx. of how much- one ounce per #.

 

i should have remembered how much felix "should" have been drinking when we were trying to figure out his urinary problem last year.he was tanking up w/ water and bursting!

the correct ammount- 8-10 cups(2 1/2 qts) he was tanking down w/ 4-5 +qts of water! we too went thru blood work, urinary analysis and dip stick tests- everything was NORMAL!

 

so,we went thru measuring the intake- recording the output was difficult, but you can get an appx. ammount since a percentage is lost thru breathing and it's really hard to catch on of the pees especially if it's a habit just letting your dog out. you can figure out how much the dog is drinking and see if it's really well over the norm. my second dog was crated during this investigation so felix had free access to his water. it's worth the effort and hopefully if the owners will try to measure at least the intake. if the attempt the output hopefully they won't be as tired as i was and forget to catch the middle of the night pee. all of this can help the vet figure out what's going on.

 

toxins in a treat or food can produce a reaction similar to this. tick borne diseases (we put him on antibiotics for a period) also, diabetes incipidus as well. our conclusion w/ felix- well he responded to the vasopressin tannate used for diabets incipidus, 2 dosages and then the symptoms- heavy drinking and output subsided. it's a mystery, i did change his diet, a non-fills medium grade kibble(as suggested by my vet), eliminated all treats and i am just tickeled pink that he's as normal as he can be and don't ask questions. these greyhounds can be very mysterious. the book "the care of the racing and retired greyhound" has excellent info on DI, one of the factors can be stress- it can come and go.....felix's is gone. it's worth the read and sharing w/ the vet.

[GeorgeofNE]

Same home?? I'm thinking not.

 

Same vet?

 

If they all eat the same food, which I consider a massive coincidence, and none are in the same home--the odds of this are--very, very low! I'd be inclined to worry about the food. But why just those three?

 

As you know, my vet gives me what I want or I don't leave!

 

And there are other perfectly legal sources of antibiotics...

 

Juss sayin'

 

I showed the antibiotics labeled for "aquarium use only" to a pharmacist and he immediately identified them as the human grade form of exactly what they're supposed to be, i.e. doxycycline.

 

I would 1) demand the antibiotics for a full month if they worked in the short term, 2) find a new vet if #1 was refused, and 3) consider a temporary change of diet just to rule that out as a potential cause.

[cleptogrey]

if you do decide to change the diet it can take quite a while for things to clear up. felix's bout started after a new bag of chewies(ha-ha american made) and the use of costco's better food- something or another domain. we weren't sure if it was that or possibly something he got into in the yard- tic borne, DI, what ever but it took 6 months to finally clear up. i don't know if it was time, i don't know if it was the vasopressin tannate...but if you try a change, be patient and wait. i would go w/ the antibiotics, won't hurt and food change for a start. most raw feeders i know are very devoted but i feel it's what's best for the animal.

[duncan41]

No experience here, but many others have expressed your frustration and very frequently, the problem cleared up after an extremely long course of antibiotics, without any dietary changes. Since there was "considerable improvement" after the "normal course" of antibiotics, that would be my first choice. After the antibiotics, it would be wise to "wait and see" if the condition returns before making any more changes.

 

I hope that solves the problem.

[djsgreys]

Three different homes - the dogs have been in the homes 3 yrs, 2 yrs and just over a year. None of them are drinking abnormal amounts of water. I am going to go read up on DI though.

 

About 75% of the grey owners up here feed the same diet that I do and that these greys are on and no problems. Spoke with two of the families yesterday and passsed on the advice from here.

 

Now a dumb question - if they have just been on antibiotics would it throw off the results from tic born testing?

[Batmom]

Now a dumb question - if they have just been on antibiotics would it throw off the results from tic born testing?

 

Not dumb at all. The answer is "possibly."

 

It's possible they all have a TBD, but in and of itself, that won't cause overdrinking and overurination. You'd see something in the bloodwork or urinalysis (signs of impaired kidneys, infection, etc.).

[GeorgeofNE]

Now a dumb question - if they have just been on antibiotics would it throw off the results from tic born testing?

 

Not dumb at all. The answer is "possibly."

 

It's possible they all have a TBD, but in and of itself, that won't cause overdrinking and overurination. You'd see something in the bloodwork or urinalysis (signs of impaired kidneys, infection, etc.).

 

And if they've all been in their homes for a while, I think the odds that three dogs would start to show the SAME symptom at the same time would be slim.

 

Is this the prepared raw diet that you use that they all eat? It really does seem to be the ONLY common denominator, if so.

[Guest Lovey_Hounds]

try taking the kelp out of the diet for a while and see what happens, I have seen kelp cause dogs to pee more often and sometimes dribble too and when adding the kelp back in do it in small amounts adding more each week.

[djsgreys]

Thanks Brandi - will pass this along as well.