When To Say "enough Is Enough?" (Aggression)

[RaineysMom]

, and our vet suspected temporal lobe epilepsy.

 

 

thank you, that is the term I meant to add -- I had forgotten the name.

 

to the OP, I have not been able to stop thinking about you and your boy since I saw your post. My heart SO goes out to you on this. In a world where so many animals are treated worse than garbage or slighly better as second-thought pets, to have someone like you care so very much for your boy to go through so much to want to make things right with him is, to me, admirable beyond words. I know the agony you are feeling now and pray for a good outcome. I wish I could turn back time and find out about this possible cause for our Remy -- I would have put him on phenobarb or whatever was the proper meds -- at least to see if it had helped.

 

continuing to send you and your boy hugs.

 

ETA: cleared up I was talking about our Remy not your boy!

Edited July 3, 2012 by RaineysMom

[Batmom]

I honestly feel that most adoption/rescue groups who take back a dog with such a history of severe aggression would most likely end up euthanizing the dog rather than take the risk of rehoming. The exception would be if there is a trusted group member or volunteer who is experienced with problems like this and is willing to keep the dog themselves. So I hate to say it, but unless your adoption group has an extremely experienced foster home who can work with him, your home may be the best chance he has at this point.

 

A dog who has shown this level of aggression will likely never be 'cured' and can never be completely trusted. No matter how carefully the dog is managed, there will also be the potential risk that something will trigger the aggression in the future.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think it's fair to say those things at this point, and I would hope that the group would agree. The dog -- and the people! -- would benefit from an assessment in a different environment, at the very least.

 

This dog appears to have reacted mainly when lying down. That is not uncommon, and it's workable. He's reacted rather more strongly than some, but that too is not uncommon once a dog is sensitized to a fear trigger.

 

The dog is in an inconsistent and, to a dog's eyes, odd environment. Sometimes people "banish" him for no apparent reason. That could again add to setting a dog on edge.

 

The dog has also been put on thyroid medication -- and the dose has been increased -- without mention of a full panel. If he's getting more meds than a greyhound should have, that would tend to exacerbate any aggression or touchiness that he already has.

 

I'm not there observing the dog. However, it's almost never the case that a dog gives no warning. The warning can be very subtle and, especially if the dog is sensitized to that trigger, very brief. It's almost always still there.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Batmom

[Guest twogreytkids]

You might want to have your vet do a tick panel on your boy.

 

Sporadic aggression can be a sign of tick disease. We had an adopter who had her boy for several years and all of a sudden he had sporadic aggression. A triip to her vet resulted in a diagnosis of tick disease. Once he was treated, he went back to being his normal self.

[Guest colander_girl]

So I hate to say it, but unless your adoption group has an extremely experienced foster home who can work with him, your home may be the best chance he has at this point.

 

A dog who has shown this level of aggression will likely never be 'cured' and can never be completely trusted. No matter how carefully the dog is managed, there will also be the potential risk that something will trigger the aggression in the future.

 

I think you're absolutely right. I will never trust him, but I know better than anybody what not to do around him, otherwise I'd have a lot more bite marks than I do! I knew I was playing with fire tending to his feet last week, but he did so well four days in a row. I really don't feel right putting him in another home unless it was a very experienced person who really wanted him.

 

I can almost guarantee that thyroid problems are not the sole cause of his behavior. There may be some other underlying medical cause, and part may also be genetics and his innate temperament. His aggression is also not associated with dominance, and treating it as such will only make it worse.

 

So I'd suggest having a long heart-to-heart talk with your adoption group about what the realistic options are for your boy. Have you kept in touch with them regarding all the issues he's had? If you've decided that you cannot continue to live with him, would you feel comfortable sending him back to the group if they may end up putting him down? Or would you get more closure by making that decision yourself? Will the group allow you to be part of that decision process, and would you even want to be involved? IMO, there are no right or wrong answers in a situation like this. You have to do what you feel is best, and what you can live with.

 

A few thoughts regarding some of his behavior...

 

You mentioned that he gives no warning signs. Are you familiar with calming signals? The early warning signs that most dogs give of being stressed and uncomfortable are very subtle, and not recognized by most people. After years of having these subtle signs ignored, some dogs stop using them. Here's a good article that give an overview of calming signals.

 

While it may certainly be worthwhile pursuing a consult with a neurologist or vet behaviorists, I'm not sure if his behavior fits with something like "rage epilepsy" since they all seem triggered by specific interactions.

 

I have a feeling he is in a lot of pain from his corns (which is why I was messing with his feet in the first place, though he doesn't know that). I know pain causes aggression. Not that he was in pain the entire time we've had him, his limping is a more recent problem.

 

Our adoption group is aware of his issues, we went to them from the very beginning. They don't know about the recent events though. We would only send him back to them if they had someone who really wanted him, I don't want him to be kept in a cage for months. Since we adopted him (and our other dog), they've never spent a night away from home. When we go on vacation, we have a family member stay with them. (He's never been aggressive with any of our housesitting family members--he absolutely loves them, but I think they've just been good about leaving him alone). I don't want to return him just so he can be put down. I'm really still on the fence about what to do, but I'm leaning toward forgiving and just not letting my guard down again. And turning the care of his corns over to our vet. Not sure what my husband will think about that though...

 

Calming signals -- I notice these a LOT with our girl, she play bows about 10 times a day it seems. I've rarely seen our boy play bow, our girl is the really playful one. She tries to get him to play with her, and sometimes he does which is fun to watch. He does stretch every time he gets up from a nap, but in situations where he eventually attacks he usually get still and stares for a split second before he lunges. Usually by the time I see that it's too late to avoid his teeth.

 

I'm typing this on my mobile, so I won't write the novel I could, but my short answer is that, for me, there was no point of "enough is enough." I adopted an aggression bounce who attacked me in my sleep, bit other hounds (once causing three layers of stitches at the evet), and occasionally had Old Yeller style snarling fits. The light switch described above totally fits him. After each incident, he was a completely different hound, and our vet suspected temporal lobe epilepsy.

 

So we learned how to manage him, and when we did have slip ups (like the evet incident) we considered it OUR failure, not his. It wasn't his fault his brain was wired differently.

 

Otherwise, he was an AMAZING dog, and I loved (and still love) the bejesus out of him. We lost him to Osteosarcoma four months ago.

 

I'm sorry for your loss! How often did he have aggressive incidents? I don't know much about epilepsy but I don't think that's our dog's problem. He never turns aggressive randomly, it's always with interaction. It's just that it happens so rarely and unpredictably. I think I need to do some more research.

 

to the OP, I have not been able to stop thinking about you and your boy since I saw your post. My heart SO goes out to you on this. In a world where so many animals are treated worse than garbage or slighly better as second-thought pets, to have someone like you care so very much for your boy to go through so much to want to make things right with him is, to me, admirable beyond words. I know the agony you are feeling now and pray for a good outcome. I wish I could turn back time and find out about this possible cause for our Remy -- I would have put him on phenobarb or whatever was the proper meds -- at least to see if it had helped.

 

continuing to send you and your boy hugs.

 

 

Thank you so much! If there was a way our vet would put him on medication I'd definitely try it, I just can't afford thousands of dollars of vet bills (we just went through that when we had our girl's leg x-rayed looking for osteosarcoma). At the beginning of his issues I wondered if he just needed some Prozac. But he's a really chill dog usually, fast asleep on his bed with his eyes open right now.

 

This dog appears to have reacted mainly when lying down. That is not uncommon, and it's workable. He's reacted rather more strongly than some, but that too is not uncommon once a dog is sensitized to a fear trigger.

 

The dog is in an inconsistent and, to a dog's eyes, odd environment. Sometimes people "banish" him for no apparent reason. That could again add to setting a dog on edge.

 

The dog has also been put on thyroid medication -- and the dose has been increased -- without mention of a full panel. If he's getting more meds than a greyhound should have, that would tend to exacerbate any aggression or touchiness that he already has.

 

I'm not there observing the dog. However, it's almost never the case that a dog gives no warning. The warning can be very subtle and, especially if the dog is sensitized to that trigger, very brief. It's almost always still there.

 

Yes--in most cases he is lying down. He was standing when he went for our vet, when he went for my face, and when he went for my husband. Though there was always interaction. I think his version of a warning is to be very still and stare for a split second, which I'm starting to recognize. However by the time I notice it's too late.

 

It's just that he's normally a perfectly happy, well-adjusted dog who loves attention and petting and leaning on you. If anyone sits down on our living room rug, he'll come curl up next to you and roll over on his back even if he was already lying down a few feet away. If he was normally an aloof and nervous dog his episodes would make much more sense.

 

You might want to have your vet do a tick panel on your boy.

 

Sporadic aggression can be a sign of tick disease. We had an adopter who had her boy for several years and all of a sudden he had sporadic aggression. A triip to her vet resulted in a diagnosis of tick disease. Once he was treated, he went back to being his normal self.

 

Our adoption group did do a tick panel on him before we adopted him, but now that you mention it, I'm not sure if he was positive and had to be given treatment before we adopted him (or if I'm thinking of some random dog I'd seen on their website). He's been on Heartgard and Frontline since we've had him, and we've never found a tick on him. We need to look into that though, thanks!

[Guest maidmarcia]

Wow. I would find it very difficult to do what you have done, persevering the way that you have. Whatever happens, you should know that you have been a great owner and your dogs are lucky to have you!

 

Personally, I don't know if I would be able to keep a dog who had attacked me or family members multiple times. I wouldn't feel comfortable in my own home and I'm sure the dog would be able to sense that as well. If you're on edge around him, he probably gets that sense and that won't help.

 

My dad once told me a story of when he was a teenager...his friend had a German Shepherd who attacked a chicken and once it got a taste of that fresh blood, it went stark raving mad . It was running around the farmyard and attacking other animals, dangerous to even be near. Unfortunately they had to put him down and couldn't even get near him at that point so it was a target shot.

 

I'm not telling that story to freak you out (or other posters), but to say that sometimes I think dogs get a taste of blood or aggression and there is simply no turning back. This is also happened with a family friends golden lab, of all dogs. It attacked the dad of the family multiple times and they had no options, because frankly, who would want to bring such an animal into their home?

 

While the dog is important, you and your family are even MORE IMPORTANT and your safety should be considered above the dogs. You are not living in a safe and happy environment right now. Get rid of the dog unless it is a medical condition that you can quickly discover and solve. Either that or muzzle him 24/7.

Edited July 3, 2012 by maidmarcia

[Guest colander_girl]

I'm not telling that story to freak you out (or other posters), but to say that sometimes I think dogs get a taste of blood or aggression and there is simply no turning back. This is also happened with a family friends golden lab, of all dogs. It attacked the dad of the family multiple times and they had no options, because frankly, who would want to bring such an animal into their home?

 

While the dog is important, you and your family are even MORE IMPORTANT and your safety should be considered above the dogs. You are not living in a safe and happy environment right now. Get rid of the dog unless it is a medical condition that you can quickly discover and solve. Either that or muzzle him 24/7.

 

Thanks! Fortunately I don't think it is his nature to want to be a vicious beast so I'm hoping it's medical. Now that he's unbanished it's like things are back to normal. Which is a good thing, because I'm actually less stressed out now. I'm not afraid of him, I guess because his good times far outweigh his bad times. I'm taking him to the vet in a few hours so we'll see how that goes. He's just getting a blood draw today, we'll talk to the vet later in the week. And he will definitely be muzzled before we leave the house.

[Guest maidmarcia]

I'm not telling that story to freak you out (or other posters), but to say that sometimes I think dogs get a taste of blood or aggression and there is simply no turning back. This is also happened with a family friends golden lab, of all dogs. It attacked the dad of the family multiple times and they had no options, because frankly, who would want to bring such an animal into their home?

 

While the dog is important, you and your family are even MORE IMPORTANT and your safety should be considered above the dogs. You are not living in a safe and happy environment right now. Get rid of the dog unless it is a medical condition that you can quickly discover and solve. Either that or muzzle him 24/7.

 

Thanks! Fortunately I don't think it is his nature to want to be a vicious beast so I'm hoping it's medical. Now that he's unbanished it's like things are back to normal. Which is a good thing, because I'm actually less stressed out now. I'm not afraid of him, I guess because his good times far outweigh his bad times. I'm taking him to the vet in a few hours so we'll see how that goes. He's just getting a blood draw today, we'll talk to the vet later in the week. And he will definitely be muzzled before we leave the house.

 

 

Neither was this golden lab! That was what was so bizarre and scary about the entire situation. He was this beautiful sunny tempered family dog who just freaked out one day and started attacking the dad aka most dominant male. There were probably signs that the family didn't see (being busy with their children etc) but it was completely unexpected and scary for them...

 

I think that your boy's situation is especially difficult, because as you have expressed, he is so gentle otherwise. If he was constantly aggressive not just having these little moments, it would be easier for you to give him up... but he's still your dog that you've had for a while and you're bonded together I'm sorry you have to go through this. Hopefully the vet will find some answers.

 

*hugs*

[Guest colander_girl]

Sorry, I can't help but post a picture. They rarely get this close together unless there is an impending treat. Our boy (right) was there first and our girl (left) plopped down beside him when I told them to lay down. (Expecting her to run and lay down in her crate which is to the right of the bed).

 

[Guest maidmarcia]

I LOVE the bed. Where the heck did you get that from? Beautiful doggies!

[Guest colander_girl]

Neither was this golden lab! That was what was so bizarre and scary about the entire situation. He was this beautiful sunny tempered family dog who just freaked out one day and started attacking the dad aka most dominant male. There were probably signs that the family didn't see (being busy with their children etc) but it was completely unexpected and scary for them...

 

I think that your boy's situation is especially difficult, because as you have expressed, he is so gentle otherwise. If he was constantly aggressive not just having these little moments, it would be easier for you to give him up... but he's still your dog that you've had for a while and you're bonded together I'm sorry you have to go through this. Hopefully the vet will find some answers.

 

*hugs*

 

Yeah, I see what you are saying. He just does so many submissive things when he doesn't have his teeth in me. :-) He never walks through a doorway unless I go first, or tell him "okay."

 

I see your new post-- that's a Coolaroo bed. I'm on the fence about them still. They won't lay on them unless there is a blanket covering the canvas. We have 4 of them (2 in the living room, 2 in the bedroom). The ones in the bedroom have a regular fluffy bed on them. We went a little overboard but our house is mostly tile and hardwood and wanted them to have comfy places to lay down. They love them as long as there is something soft on top. It's easy to throw the blankets in the washing machine, the canvas allows fur to fall right through so the beds themselves stay clean and smell-free. http://www.amazon.com/Coolaroo-Large-Steel-Framed-Brunswick-Green/dp/B000P7JKD6

[Guest NJgrey]

There are other folks with unpredictable hounds out there. Even with multiple dogs, those dogs stay muzzled all the time, as long as there is supervision. If left alone, the muzzled dogs are separated from the unmuzzled ones by baby-gate, or otherwise crated.

 

That said, you have dealt with this far FAR more than any reasonable person could expect. Talk to your adoption group about options. Some dogs are just a loaded gun waiting to go off, same as any other animal, including people. You've done your best for him, but you need to do your best for your family and your other hound too.

[Guest KennelMom]

There are homes out there that will take "aggression" cases. We've taken in many - including two that were to be put down in adoption channels due to aggression. One lived out his life with us, no problems and is now at the bridge having died from old age. The other had uncontrollable and unpredicatable aggression to people and dogs (at the track)...and she's still here. She's an odd ball, for sure, but we've never once had aggression issues with her. She's a classic "beta" dog that looks bossy/in charge, but really has nooooooo confidence. A bad combo in a lot of enivronments. Her bff in the pack is JUST like her and came to us after biting kids. We really aren't special. We just don't bring the dog's baggage with them. Have a great/balanced pack and have very clear rules for the dogs to follow that we make sure they understand. And we do our damndest to make sure each dog is set up to succeed. Usually, with the aggression cases, we dont' have to do anything special at all. The point is, sometimes a change of environment gives a dog a fresh start and that's all they need. Once bites have happened, it can be very, very hard for the humans to totally put down that baggage and move forward.

 

Barring a medical condition, I don't think there's a greyhound out there that I'd say "enough is enough"...we've seen the bad cases and, honestly, I've never seen one bad enough to warrant a needle. In fact, for a while Ken and I eagerly took in the aggression cases just to SEE what a truly aggressive greyhound looked like. Most of those are weeded out before they get to the track or adoption, so I think what we see are dogs that really can be fixed or managed. But not every home is the right home for that, and there's no shame in that.

 

I think it's impossible to give advice over the internet in cases like these because we only get the human's side of the story. Dogs so very, very, very rarely have "no signs" preceding a bite or snap. They may be subtle and/or not seen as signs, but they are there. Without interacting with the dog, no one can really accurately give advice on how to handle him beyond making sure he's muzzled.

 

He's a candidate to go back to the adoption group, I think. Some are more quick to euthanize than others so his final fate will reall depend on them. But unless you get a well trained behaviorist to help you, I'm not sure stayign put is best for him. The more bites a dog is allowed to accumulate, the dimmer his future becomes.

 

Oh, and I don't trust any of my dogs. Trust is how you become complacent and bites happen. ALL DOGS can bite. All of them. Every. Single. One. It's a matter of the right (or wrong) circumstances coming together. That doesn't mean I don't love them to pieces and smooshy kiss them or give them lots of adoring attention (even when they solicit it)..it just means I always respect the pointy end of the dog.

Edited July 3, 2012 by KennelMom

[TheFullHouse]

I have two living with me that came into my home with aggression issues and both are absolute dolls now. Yeah it took a lot of work to get them to the point that they are at now and I never, ever let my guard down with any of my dogs. Heather said it best when she said any dog can bite given the right circumstances. Your boy's breaking point is his bed and lying down. I would never, ever approach him while he is on his bed. Since you know his feet are an issue I would never cut his nails or hull his corns myself either. Dogs behave better for others than they do us. I had a friend over this weekend and my previously aggressive boy who is 11 now has started giving me problems doing his nails. He stood perfectly still for my friend and let her cut them. I avoided stressing him out and he got his nails cut. I would just at this point avoid the things you know stress him out. I would still have a neurological work up done on him though if he were mind.

[OwnedBySummer]

They're gorgeous houndies! Is it just me or does the male dog actually looked worried/concerned/sad?

Edited July 3, 2012 by OwnedBySummer

[vjgrey]

I'm sorry for your loss! How often did he have aggressive incidents? I don't know much about epilepsy but I don't think that's our dog's problem. He never turns aggressive randomly, it's always with interaction. It's just that it happens so rarely and unpredictably. I think I need to do some more research.

 

Fortunately, he only attacked me once. The weird snarling episodes were coming every six to eight months or so until his last two years. But we learned that all of his episodes came right after he'd been asleep (although it wasn't sleep aggression - he definitely was not asleep at the time). So we made sure that he NEVER slept anywhere near people or other hounds and used a muzzle when necessary.

 

He also had pretty severe space aggression with other dogs and was also prone to "misdirected rage" when other dogs got worked up around him. "Solved" by using a muzzle and keeping him separated from other hounds in close spaces, like the car. We actually walled off a separate area for him when we travelled in our SUV. He had to be crated when we left the house, because he could, and did (twice), bite ears through the muzzle.

 

Once we learned his triggers and the dangerous points for him (e.g. after sleep), it became second nature to take those precautions. He was definitely more high-maintenance than our other hounds, but I think going through that with him and taking the time to learn how to manage him made him extra special to me. It was a bonding process.

[NeylasMom]

I think it's impossible to give advice over the internet in cases like these because we only get the human's side of the story. Dogs so very, very, very rarely have "no signs" preceding a bite or snap. They may be subtle and/or not seen as signs, but they are there. Without interacting with the dog, no one can really accurately give advice on how to handle him beyond making sure he's muzzled.

 

Lots of sound advice in KennelMom's post, I just want to say something in response to this particular topic since there's been a fair amount of discussion about it. I think in general what Heather is saying is true, but I think it's important to remember that dogs can and do stop using warning signals when they've been ignored and/or ineffective for a long time. We also know that dogs bark, growl, snap and bite thresholds and the distance between each can vary dramatically amongst dogs so I think it's possible that at this point, the only warning the dog is giving is that moment of stillness, which as the OP said, doesn't give her enough time to react. I keep thinking of Zoe, Inugrey's girl, who would literally come up to a person wagging for attention and then mid-pet, bam, she would bite. There were a lot of contributing factors to why she was reacting in the situations she was, but when she did, she wasn't giving warning signs. All of this to say, I know it's rare, but it's not impossible so without us being there to observe, we really can't say.

 

 

To the OP, I really do think if you're going to keep him that you should consult a veterinary behaviorist. I also think you need to re-evaluate how you manage the dogs when you are not home. The unfortunate reality is that if you don't separate and/or muzzle the dogs, you could come home to a situation much worse than one requiring a few staples or stitches. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but there's a very real possibility he could do irrepairable damage to your girl if there is a fight and you're not there.

 

The vet visit is first obviously, but since you seem to be leaning toward keeping him, and just posted a photo where your girl felt comfortable lying down in his space, which you know is a trigger for him, I would give it more thought.

 

ETA: They are beautiful dogs.

Edited July 3, 2012 by NeylasMom

[greytpups]

Some dogs sense fear, so perhaps you emit fear or anxiety when near him since you don't always know what triggers the aggression which may also cause this.

[Guest maidmarcia]

They're gorgeous houndies! Is it just me or does the male dog actually looked worried/concerned/sad?

 

Yeah, I thinking that too.

[Fruitycake]

I think it's impossible to give advice over the internet in cases like these because we only get the human's side of the story. Dogs so very, very, very rarely have "no signs" preceding a bite or snap. They may be subtle and/or not seen as signs, but they are there. Without interacting with the dog, no one can really accurately give advice on how to handle him beyond making sure he's muzzled.

 

Lots of sound advice in KennelMom's post, I just want to say something in response to this particular topic since there's been a fair amount of discussion about it. I think in general what Heather is saying is true, but I think it's important to remember that dogs can and do stop using warning signals when they've been ignored and/or ineffective for a long time. We also know that dogs bark, growl, snap and bite thresholds and the distance between each can vary dramatically amongst dogs so I think it's possible that at this point, the only warning the dog is giving is that moment of stillness, which as the OP said, doesn't give her enough time to react. I keep thinking of Zoe, Inugrey's girl, who would literally come up to a person wagging for attention and then mid-pet, bam, she would bite. There were a lot of contributing factors to why she was reacting in the situations she was, but when she did, she wasn't giving warning signs. All of this to say, I know it's rare, but it's not impossible so without us being there to observe, we really can't say.

 

 

Sometimes dogs are trained out of giving warning signals, by punishing them or interrupting them or by "reinforcing dominance over them" when they do try to give warning signals (a growl or a lip-lift = I'm being yelled at or punished in some way...I guess I shouldn't give a warning then). It doesn't mean that you had done it, but maybe his "fuse" was already short (we all know people that way, so why not in dogs too?) and even once telling a dog not to tell someone to back off with a dog warning might make him decide no warnings are allowed and you just have to tell the ones scaring or upsetting you more forcefully (teeth).

 

Also, "calming signals" aren't just things like play bowing. They can be things like nose licking, tongue flicking, yawns, shaking off imaginary water, a head turn away, an eye-movement away, even just a slight tightening of the lips to show discomfort. All of those signals can indicate stress, and when under stress the fuse shortens considerably. Even the "freeze and stare" is a warning signal, which happens as an absolute last minute before the threshhold of violence is breached. Getting away at that point is nearly impossible, unless you have reactions as fast as the animal you're dealing with (very unlikely).

 

Our Allie (nongrey) has some aggression issues toward dogs, but those are based on fear. Instead of punishing or chastizing her for growling at other dogs when she sees them I've taken to watching her like a hawk when we're out and she sees another dog and I now reward her for doing *any* of the calming signals. And it has helped her. (Not saying that it would work for your boy, but if you can catch the "I'm getting stressed" signals if he is still giving them, maybe you can help turn the tide. An animal behaviorist who has lots of experience and uses positive methods can really help! They know the signs to look for, and may be able to catch something as fleeting as less than a second that you'd only be able to see in slow motion on a recording.)

 

Good luck with your boy.

[Trihounds]

This is certainly not advice, but a question.

 

When he has been aggressive, has anyone tried a more physical approach with him (NOT hitting or anything like that, of course) to hold him down or get him to back off? I have never been in your situation but I suspect I would do one of two things - 1) retreat (probably the best option) or 2) get mad and grab a collar and hold him down. I'm not suggesting or advocating, just thinking about what I MIGHT do and wondering if someone instinctively tried that and what the reaction was. Again, not a suggestion, but you didn't comment on the human's immediate reaction to the incident's other than (naturally) pulling away.

 

And I will add - you have done amazing things to accommodate this guy so far. Only a few in a hundred would go to the lengths you are. Thank you for making such great efforts!

[racindog]

I see several parrallels to my Minny. He too would have fairly vicious attacks on animal and human without any warning(no observable triggers etc.). I finally came to the conclusion after extensive research it was a type of epilepsy- I would lovingly call them brain farts-and did some research determining it was influenced by corn in the diet. Some dogs cannot eat corn-it mimics seratonin and lessens inhibitons etc is what I found out I believe. Anyway Minny was also the most empathic creature I've ever known. I was his foster and when my soulmate Slim crossed over and I was a wreck Minny managed to get thrown out of his "home" and came back to me-he knew I needed him. So he just worn a muzzle 24/7 and was closely supervised. He didn't care. He didn't want to hurt anybody and without his muzzie on he might so he was fine with it. Days before he turned 9 years old he had a sudden first time ever and severe siezure and it was determined he had brain cancer. I now think his unexplained aggression was a result of a slow growing cancer that was there all along. So hideous that happenned. He was possibly the most intelligent dog I have ever had. Looking back I would change nothing in the way we lived. Simply using a muzzle and being vigilant gave us many years to share each others love. And at the end I must tell you he demonstated a courage and braveness and honor and dignity without parallel-his soul is truly among lions.

[Guest colander_girl]

They're gorgeous houndies! Is it just me or does the male dog actually looked worried/concerned/sad?

 

Yeah, I thinking that too.

 

Yes, that's his "I don't like her on my bed, but I'm tolerating it because I know I'm about to get a rawhide" look. He is extremely food motivated.

[mangos_mom]

First, I want to say the same as many others have said: you have shown amazing perseverance with your boy. Many adopters would have given up long ago and returned him but here you are looking for advice to still help him.

 

One question that I haven't seen asked but occurred to me as I was reading this thread. All of these instances of human bites appear, to me, to be situation where the person bit was possibly reaching over him in some way. If true, is it possible that the main trigger is that?

 

Otherwise, you have gotten far better advice from others here that I could ever give. Wishing you success in your search for help.

[Guest colander_girl]

This is certainly not advice, but a question.

 

When he has been aggressive, has anyone tried a more physical approach with him (NOT hitting or anything like that, of course) to hold him down or get him to back off? I have never been in your situation but I suspect I would do one of two things - 1) retreat (probably the best option) or 2) get mad and grab a collar and hold him down. I'm not suggesting or advocating, just thinking about what I MIGHT do and wondering if someone instinctively tried that and what the reaction was. Again, not a suggestion, but you didn't comment on the human's immediate reaction to the incident's other than (naturally) pulling away.

 

And I will add - you have done amazing things to accommodate this guy so far. Only a few in a hundred would go to the lengths you are. Thank you for making such great efforts!

 

Thank you!

 

No, we've never ever touched him after an incident. Our immediate reaction is "NO!" and then we separate him from us (usually the backyard, Saturday it was the bedroom) until we clean up the blood. The first time he truly got his teeth in me, I left the room and he followed (in a normal way--not chasing me or anything) and I put him outside while I assessed the damage. With my DH a few months ago, I don't even remember if we put him outside, he may have just gone in the living room. Saturday my husband threw a shoe to get him off of me and then he ran into the bedroom where we left him. I've made an effort never to physically punish him or restrain him, because I feel that would only escalate the situation, and I have no doubt he'd react back and put me in the hospital. He's never been held down, when he's in a frenzy there's no way I could hold him, I only weigh 30 lbs more than he does. (He's 73.3 lbs as of this morning's vet visit). Even in a non-attack situation, he's never been "alpha rolled" or anything like that.

 

Talking about instinct -- the first attack I stood my ground and yelled "NO" after the first bite and then I stepped away, pointed toward the door and said "OUT" (I was really in shock at what was happening and didn't know what to expect) and he jumped up and kept biting until I retreated. Usually he obeys when we say "out" -- he knows the command to leave the room. This Saturday (going from previous experience) I instinctively just turned away from him and covered my face and leaned into the side of the couch waiting until it was over (damage control instinct I guess). After it's all over I have the urge to beat the cr@p out of him, but that's just because I'm so angry at him. I definitely wouldn't touch him, and while he's attacking the last thing on my mind is to hit him.

 

First, I want to say the same as many others have said: you have shown amazing perseverance with your boy. Many adopters would have given up long ago and returned him but here you are looking for advice to still help him.

 

One question that I haven't seen asked but occurred to me as I was reading this thread. All of these instances of human bites appear, to me, to be situation where the person bit was possibly reaching over him in some way. If true, is it possible that the main trigger is that?

 

Otherwise, you have gotten far better advice from others here that I could ever give. Wishing you success in your search for help.

 

Thanks! Yes, many of them were like that, except this Saturday I was sitting next to him just feeling the pads on one of his front paws. It's just that he's been reached over thousands of times and maybe one out of a thousand he reacts violently.

Edited July 3, 2012 by colander_girl

[Guest colander_girl]

Ok, for those following. My DH insists he cannot stay with us, and I know he's right but I really wish we could keep him. He spoke with our adoption group who has someone who will take him. We will hear back with more info.

 

I took him for a blood draw an hour ago, for those who know it's: ANTECH T497 T4 Post Pill (he has this test every 6 months)*

 

We're bringing him back to the vet on Friday to get the results, and to have his corns looked at/hulled. I am very sad about losing him but I am happy that he gets another chance. He really is a good boy most of the time.

 

*ETA: Except it was only 3 months ago that he had it last.

Edited July 3, 2012 by colander_girl