Aggression, Muzzles And Children

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

I would like to say, as others have said, you are amazing. Your dedication to Joe is uncompromising, that is so refreshing to see here. Time and time again people have half the problem you do and just do a knee jerk reaction to get rid of the hound. It is painfully clear how much you and your husband love Joe no matter what. Thank you for being such a wonderful parent to Joe.

 

Now for the tough part. I am a foster parent. I have 3 hounds of my own, and I do what is called long-term fostering (I am the second stage rehab house for broken leg hounds) and typically have my fosters for anywhere from 2-7 months. It is always very tough to think that someone else could ever take care of your hound as well as you do. I get it, believe me. Let me tell you a story about my most favorite foster ever:

 

Gidget came to the group being only a few hours away from death. You see the track that she raced at had a very rapid outbreak of tainted food. They did their best to get all the hounds medical as soon as they were able to establish what was going on, but some didn't make it. Gidget was one that did. She had terrible kidney values and for months we didn't know if she was going to make it or not. Gidget is one of the most outgoing special hounds you will ever meet. She loves to cuddle, she talks to you, plays like a nutball. I had a connection with her that I have to this day never had with another foster. She was with us for just over 7 months, my wife and I have fostered many many hounds and we never even came close to adopting another as it would essentially shut us down for fostering (we are one of only a couple of foster homes that actually do the long-term rehab) and it is very important to us to foster. Well my wife and I were actually joking about keeping Gidget. Then a friend here on Greytalk emailed me and asked about my foster. Within a few weeks, Gidget was adopted. My wife and I were crushed. We could not ask for a better home for her. Her new mom is "Batmom". I will say it here, she is a much better greyhound parent than I could ever be. I am so happy that Gidget found her, but to this day it hurts, but I know that no matter what Gidget has the best greyhound house there is. Now Gidget didn't have any behavior problems, but because of her medical condition, she needed more medical follow-up than most hounds and it was thought that she may need medication for life. She is considered a "special needs" hound because of damage to her kidneys. Why did I go into all this detail? Because even though you may feel that nobody will ever love Joe as much as you do, or be able to take care of him like you do, there is always someone out there that is willing and able to do the job, even excel at it. If your group says you can be part of the process that decides where Joe goes, that is even better. I am still able to get updates on Gidget, I can visit when I am close to her, thanks to the graciousness of her mom.

 

If you do consider rehoming, know that there are people out there just as dedicated as you. I know it is devastating to even consider the idea, my heart breaks for your situation.

 

Chad

[vjgrey]

No advice, but I did want to echo those who are saying a huge thank you for your dedication to Joe. We don't have children, but we do have a "special needs," boy who was previously bounced for repeatedly biting greyhounds. He's since bitten my two girly hounds and me (though our vet has attributed his biting me to neurological issues, not aggression). It's taken years and a lot of hard work to learn how to recognize and avoid his triggers.

 

In spite/because of all that, he's my favorite boy - the hound who's the very closest to my heart, and I would not give him up for anything on earth.

 

I admire your dedication to Joe, and I very much hope you can keep both him and your child safe and happy. If not, please know that there are people like me (and others on this board) out there who can and will love a hound with "issues," and whose lifestyle might be a better fit for him.

Edited January 3, 2012 by vjgrey

[Guest Gemma]

I wish there were a million more adopters out there as dedicated as you and your husband!

 

I'm going to agree with folks who suggested waiting to see how things are after Joe's health issues have been addressed. My boy, Peyton, is the least aggressive dog in the world (he's actually a big baby and will shake if another dog snarks at him) with no space issues whatsoever but he growled in my face when he was in pain and I didn't realize. He has a bad back leg, which we knew off, but he had been hiding an increase in pain well. He went right to a specialist and we eventually got him on Tremadol. He was like a new dog! He started playing more, he wanted longer walks, and he has not growled at me since.

 

I am not saying Joe's fix will be as easy since he clearly has underlying fear/anxiety issues but I firmly believe that we should manage their medical issues as we look fir behavioral assistance. A dog in pain acts quite differently to one who is not.

 

I wish you the best of luck and please keep us updated!

Edited January 4, 2012 by Gemma

[Guest Bob32392]

Many thanks for all the comments about your experiences. The ones addressing the rehoming process were particularly appreciated and eye opening. It does seem crazy to think there couldn't be an equal or better home out there for Joe. But you know how it is... you can't imagine anyone else knows your dog like you do... and you can't imagine he'd be happy anywhere else. I have to keep reminding myself he's a dog, and he's adaptable. He's adapted several times in his life and he would likely do it again - even with his various issues. But, honestly, the thought of rehoming is still too terrible to consider. So we are not thinking about it right now, especially since the baby is not mobile yet. The number one priority is getting Joe healthy again. He's had two seizures in the last two days (that we've seen). They were still very mild compared to what he's had in the past, but we're concerned that they are clearly increasing. One was seemingly random while the other appeared to be started by stress (a loud noise that freaked him out). He's on 225 mg of zomicimide... he started on 250 but it caused him to be listless and lose his appetite. Does that mean the zomicimide is not working? And if we can't go higher on it, should we try another drug? For those with seizure dogs, do you seek to make the seizures mild and less frequent, or eliminate them all together? We will be speaking to the neurologist but any experiences are appreciated.

 

Also, he's got an orthopedic appointment next Tuesday and will be getting x-rays on his hind leg that appears to be bothering him. I'll post any updates. Thanks again for your comments. We are reading them.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Bob32392

[Batmom]

Don't know how I missed Chad's post earlier but somehow I did. I'm one of Chad and Jen's foster Gidget's people. The other is my elderly mom.

 

What I wanted to say is this: If you decide that it would be best for you and Joe for him to find a new home, you never know but what the perfect spot might be out there for him. When I went to adopt another dog a year and a half ago, I needed a pushbutton, extra-easy dog. How, you ask, could a special needs dog like Gidget be considered pushbutton? Easy. Her particular special needs made absolutely no difference to us -- they fit right into our scheme of things. My mom and I were so lucky that Chad and Jen were willing to give her up as she is perfect for our home. Perfect. So perfect that most days I feel a twinge of guilt that *I* get to have this incredible dog ... and yet, in someone else's household her special needs might seem burdensome.

 

I don't have experience with seizures and seizure meds but many members here do. Hopefully one of them will see and respond to your most recent questions. Wishing you best luck!

[TheFullHouse]

I was not going to settle for anything but complete control of Saint's seizures and I have a vet who was willing to work with me to make that happen. I lost my boy about 3 weeks to an issue totally unrelated to his seizures but he was coming up on his 7 th year seizure free. There are several seizure drugs you can try and several combinations. All of these drugs have side effects that the body will adjust to over time. My boy walked around like a zombie for a month to six weeks before his body started adjusting to the meds and then he was fine. Most people have a hard time watching their pups go through it but with time and patience the dog slowly returns to normal. It's the same with humans.

[3greytjoys]

Your outstanding devotion to help Joe is remarkable. Thank you for everything you are doing to help him medically. (I wanted to send a private message, but the system requires 50 messages (I believe) before you can accept PMs.) In short, I understand you are being very careful with Joe and your baby. I wonder if Joe's attack on your sister looking under the bed was in response to Joe trying to protect you and the baby from your sister's unusual (and in his eyes, uneasy and erratic) movement. The lunging with contact behavior from a standing position was different from the common, yet very important "let sleeping dogs lie" issue. I know you're working with specialists. I hope you're working with a veterinary behavioral specialist. I know some medications have side effects that can magnify a dog's aggressive behavior too.

 

Please don't let your guard down around your baby. Dogs can move faster than humans. I was taught that dogs' brains are similar to a 2 year old child. As a young child, I lived with an unpredictable large dog (different needlenose breed without any seizure issues) for many years. He developed a progressive pattern. One of his incidents was charging an infant who was left in a child carrier on the dining room carpet (next to our fully occupied dining table). The baby (frequent visitor) was being perfectly quiet. Fortunately, the baby's father intervened in time to stop the dog before dog reached the baby. (Poor decision on the infant's parents' part to place a baby on floor level with a resident dog present. Poor decision on my parents' part for not securing the dog in a safe area when a visiting baby was in the house.)

 

A muzzle could have been a wonderful safety tool in our dog's case. Please be careful to ensure Joe wears his muzzle whenever he is around any other dog/s too.

 

I agree with keeping an open crate available for Joe to have his own private resting space. Our pack always heads for the crates before the wide open beds. They love the cave-like feeling of the crates. (Our crates are partially covered on back 1/2 since our hounds don't try to chew the material.)

 

I understand you are struggling with this difficult situation. I'm glad you posted for others' insight. Please let us know how things progress with Joe.

[Guest Bob32392]

Thanks so much for the recent responses, we really appreciate it. I've got some updates. First, we took Joe to a veterinary orthopedist/sports medicine group for his legs. Joe's got a slight limp, and after looking at the x-rays the vet said he had a (at one point)significant strain on his adductor muscle, so much so that it was showing up in light gray and probably causing the limp. He also pinpointed a couple of other minor issues/injuries Joe has that racing greyhounds were prone to. Although he doesn't obviously know for sure, he said Joe was probably not in acute pain, just minor discomfort. We took him here: http://www.vetsportsmedicine.com/, and it was very reasonably priced considering how luxurious the place was. (Think Tempurpedic dog beds in the waiting room!)

 

Second, we met with the neurologist last week and spoke with the vet behaviorist about a possible MRI. It looks like we won't be doing one. They both recommended against it, saying it would be "academic" since Joe's seizures are pretty much gone and that his behavior has been pinpointed (fear/space/pain aggressive). They also said if there's no good reason to put him under, why do it? It's an adjustment to realize we won't be doing an MRI. I understand the reasons, but there is still a part of me that that thinks there is something else going on. He has always had space issues, but then last May (way before the baby was born) his behavior escalated... coincidentally at the same time as the seizures started. (Apologies b/c I know I've said this all before. I think I'm still in some sort of denial that this is even happening.) Finally, his teeth are not great so we are getting him a dental next week to minimize any other pain he might be in. After that, well, we don't have any other health-related things planned.

 

So that's where we are. We are still keeping the baby and him separate (using a baby gate and sometimes a muzzle) and trying to create lots of positive associations. We also keep in touch with the rescue, although we still don't know what we are going to do. We are taking it day by day and don't want to rush any decisions. As the baby develops to crawling and walking, we will keep re-assessing how well we can keep them apart and ensure everyone's safety. Are we putting off the inevitable? I don't know. Maybe. But I do know that part of doing what's best for everyone (whatever that is) is being thoughtful and deliberate, particularly if there's no immediate safety issue. And I must admit that I think there's a part of us that hopes we'll wake up one morning and we'll be able to magically explain this all away and find a way to make it work.

 

As an aside, I read the now-locked "dog growling at baby" thread with interest and could understand everyone's point of view. In our case, we read every book, stalked this board, went to meet-n-greets, and talked to other greyhound owners (I had even lived with a greyhound previously). All that being said, I wish we had been more aware (or honest with ourselves?) about our own family situation. My husband was still in law school and we couldn't contemplate that we would have a child within five years, but we did... within two! Had we imagined that our life would have change like that we probably would not have adopted a greyhound (or any dog) at that time. And if we had, we probably would not have adopted a dog who had already been re-homed and been through a couple foster homes before coming to us (no matter how sweet he was!). But hindsight is always 20-20, right? And, of course, there are the mistakes we made that now make me cringe, the foremost being correcting the growling.

 

Thanks again for all your input and advice. Please don't hesitate to continue commenting, even if it's not what we want to hear. Your own experiences are particularly helpful.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Bob32392

[Hubcitypam]

That is one of the most heartfelt well worded honest posts that I have ever seen on GT. Best of luck to you and Joe. You are an amazing GH Mom.

[SPDoggie]

Our dogs were not inherently aggressive, but we kept our daughter and them separated (completely) for the first year - 18mo of her life. (gates across door ways) They were not in the same room as she was, especially when she was on the floor playing.

 

Now our daughter is approaching 3 and we generally still keep the dogs out of rooms while she is playing, but they do interact, and she has always known to respect their space... "you do not touch the doggies while they're on their beds", "you do not touch their water bowls"

 

So, hopefully you can keep Joe and the baby separated, and as the months go buy, your family will continue to morph into what you all need.

 

If Joe likes walk, maybe a bunch of all-family walks, with the baby in a stroller will help everyone feel bonded.

[Trihounds]

The world needs more people like you, Bob32392....Good luck and I'm glad you're sticking it out!

[Guest Bob32392]

TWO YEAR UPDATE ON JOE:

 

Hi all, I haven't be able to figure out how to post an update to my original post from over two years ago, so this will have to do. I know that I appreciate when folks post updates on their situations and maybe this can help someone else, recognizing, of course, that no two dogs (or families!) are the same.

 

Bottom line:

 

Our "new infant" son is approaching three years old. Since I wrote this post, Joe has not emitted so much as a growl or demonstrated any sort of aggression. A part of me wants to knock on wood as I write this (and I will), but another part of me of knows that we've gotten to this point through a lot of hard work. Here's how:

 

--> Recognizing that we might have to re-home Joe, we wanted to give him the best chance to succeed in his new home. At the advice of his veterinary behaviorist, we worked to minimize his pain, since we knew it caused much of his aggression. He got full, intense, dental surgery, with several teeth pulled. We took him to an orthopedist to determine the extent of his leg pain (he said there was probably some, but not too bad), and we put him on a gluten free diet (also at the advice of our vet. behaviorist) that virtually eliminated his chronic ear infections and gastrointestinal issues. He is also on Prozac, and although I was skeptical, it has done wonders for his anxiety. Finally, we worked with his neurologist to find the perfect cocktail to minimize his seizures. (In our view, his personality started changing once he was diagnosed with epilepsy. But that's a story for another day.) We also have wonderful dogwalker who comes every day and makes sure he is nice and worn out by the time we get home from work. Most significantly, we never, ever pet or touch Joe when he is lying down, or even when he is standing in a smaller or more enclosed space. When he wants affection, he comes to us. I know this is common practice for many greyhound owners, but for us (and me in particular, who grew up with a lovable, affectionate dog who love to be petted everywhere and all the time), it was new.

 

-->We did all of this in a six month span, and very gradually, we went from "Joe is getting a new home..." to "Joe doesn't seem to be going anywhere." One day I looked at my husband and said, "We're keeping him, aren't we?" And he said, "Yes." We both knew this could change on a dime if our son were threatened or endangered in any way. But we also realized a lot of that was within our own control. I'm not going to say we didn't second guess ourselves (at one point I wondered what kind of mother I was for keeping the dog... was I being selfish?), but over time we've grown more confident because keeping our son and our dog safe from each other, but also happily co-existing, has become a routine way of life for us. In the same way that we get up every morning, eat breakfast, go to work, and brush our teeth.

 

--> The biggest shift we had to make wasn't physical, it was mental. We had to accept that Joe was not the dog we envisioned for ourselves. Instead, Joe was Joe. He's not very affectionate, is extremely uncomfortable when someone pet him while lying down, can be unpredictable at time (we're not always sure how he will react to certain situations), prefers peace, quiet, and routine, and is extremely sensitive to pain (both mental and physical). We were never going to have the kind of dog that that we could take with us on vacation, play with our child in the yard, snuggle up with us on the couch, or greet guests warmly when they entered the house or on the street. Once we accepted this (truly accepted this), things became much easier. (Ironically, about a year after we had this change of heart, Joe started joining us on the couch and putting his head on our laps, asking to be petted! He still does this, although it never lasts long - we consider these moments gifts.)

 

--> By far one of the most effective things we have done is teach our son to respect Joe, but also not to fear him, and that's an important distinction. From before we he could talk, the most common phrase he heard other than "I love you" was "Leave Joe alone and always respect his space." He never pets Joe without permission and always talks about "giving Joe space." He also knows that the dog bed is off-limits in the same way that electrical sockets are. From a practical perspective, Joe and our son are rarely in the same room together but can always see each other... we typically have a long dog gate up between the living room and dining room... and they spend enough time 'together' that neither of them realize they are actually separated most of the time. They interact on their sides of the gate, and every day our son asks to pet Joe and gives him a treat, and we take lots of joint walks. Sometimes, when our son is drowsy, we'll let Joe into the room, but neither of them notices the difference (or each other). As our son gets older and his movements get less jerky and sudden (and he becomes a better listener), we envision that they will be able to share the same room more and more.

 

--> We became all about minimizing risk, and we realized that it many instances Joe actually preferred to be on his own in other parts of the house. Guests would not listen to us when we told them not to pet him when he was lying down. So we put him upstairs in our bedroom, something we would have never done before because it seemed "mean." But then we realized we were actually helping him, and that he preferred the quiet. Now, when guests come over, he says hello and walks up to the bedroom on his own. In fact, he spends most of his time in our bedroom with the door open. (Our bedroom has become his "safe place," and he never really had one before). Instead of taking Joe on our weekend vacations (and disrupting his all-important routine, which stresses him out) we've realized that it's actually kinder to him leave him at home with the dog-walker in an environment he knows. We never would have done this previously.

 

These days, we still take nothing for granted and we operate day-by-day here. It's my hope that in another two years I will be able to post an equally positive update! There are many ways this experience has changed us, but perhaps one of the biggest is that I'm far less judgmental toward many owners who return or re-home their pets. I was very black and white about it ("How could anyone do that?") but I've realized that like most of life, there are shades of gray. Of course, there are those who are just plain irresponsible and lazy (and sometimes cruel), but there are others who may not be equipped, either mentally or financially, to work with a dog who demonstrates behavior problems (especially aggression). The promise we made to ourselves was that we had to do everything in our power to make this right, no matter the cost, and if it still didn't work, we'd re-home him. We are fortunate to have had the time and financial resources to commit to Joe, but if we didn't, then what?

 

Thanks again to this great community for all for your help. I'm sorry this was so long, but I wanted to communicate our thought process as well as some of the practical steps we took. I was so thirsty for information when we were going through this ourselves, I know I would have appreciated something similar.

 

Best wishes to all. (As we speak, Joe is playing with his favorite hedgehog stuffie and is walking toward me for some loves!)

[Remolacha]

Thank you for posting your update. I think it is wonderful that you were able to make things work with Joe. As you said, (ok, maybe I am paraphrasing ) one of the key points was accepting Joe for who he was, even if he wasn't the dog you had envisioned. Also recognizing that it was a huge investment, financially and emotionally, and not everyone is able to make that investment.

 

Congratulations to all your family!

[Batmom]

You folks are awesome.

 

Joe, you landed in the catbird seat. And a half.

 

Best wishes to all of you going forward.

[Guest PiagetsMom]

That's a wonderful update for you and for Joe, and thank you for taking the time to come back and give it. I know that it will be incredibly helpful to someone else who might find themselves where you were 2 years ago. You're so right in that another person's (or dog's) circumstances and resources might not be exactly the same as yours, but information is always helpful in making important and difficult decisions!

 

I wish you continued good times with Joe and your family

Edited May 31, 2014 by PiagetsMom

[RedHead]

Wow. Kudos to you for your amazing effort, it looks like Joe found the home that truly understands him. So nice to hear happy updates, and hopefully your story will give hope to other families going through similar situations.

[scullysmum]

Yikes. I'm not liking where this is going. The thought of rehoming him makes my physically ill. I can't imagine someone else taking care of him the way we do. I cannot imagine not being there with him throughout his life. Actually, I have imagined it. And it's horrible.

 

I know that separation is not ideal. And I'm hoping that they can be together in the same room if Joe is muzzled. I'm not sure how much I'd be comfortable with them interacting at first... but I'm hoping over time we'd get more comfortable, especially if we can address any other health issues.

 

Edited: Upon a re-read, I didn't mean to sound rude about "where this is going," in case I did! I appreciate your post, and I've had the same thoughts. I guess there are so few greytalk posts where people actually raise the possibility of re-homing that it startled me a bit. I just can't believe any of this is even happening. It's like a nightmare.

I don't mean to come across as rude but there are many people out here who could and would be capable and willing to take on the problems that Joe presents, who don't have the added worry of an infant child. I fully respect your desire to do the best thing for your dog but it does seem that finding the right home for him may be the answer, I believe you have made a move in the right direction by coming and posting here. I know that many folk here don't appreciate my bluntness but there it is. I speak as a former owner of greyhound with severe space aggression and epilepsy (not the same dog) so I have some idea what you are faced with. It is extremely hard to accept that you may not be the best home for your dog but your posting here shows that you may already have realised that.

[Batmom]

??? Did you read Joe's peoples' update or only the original post?

Edited May 31, 2014 by Batmom

[Brandiandwe]

What a great update! Thank you so much for coming back and telling us, and for reminding me that we get the dog we get, and not the dog we 'wish for' so we need to accept and respect them for them.

[BatterseaBrindl]

:)

 

And yes... Scullysmum .....please read the updates!!!!

[Guest Lillypad]

Wow! What a wonderful update. You and your family have worked hard toward success. Great update and I am certain it will be helpful to other greyhound owners. Thank you

[FiveRoooooers]

This is a truly wonderful, heart-warming update to read. Well done, Joe's humans, well done.

[Charlies_Dad]

Fantastic update! I am so glad things have worked out and the amount of effort and thought you put in to making it work is amazing.

[Guest DeniseL]

Great update. How reminds me of my Miami. Glad everything has been working out. Do you have a photo of Joe? I have been reading so much about him and would like to put a face with the name :?

[JJNg]

Amazing update that brings tears to my eyes. All of the points you made about how you've accomplished what you have with Joe are so important, but I think the most crucial is the one quoted below. Most people, understandably, have certain expectations when they get a dog. But dogs are sentient individuals who may not always meet those expectations. Joe is so fortunate to have found a family willing to let go of those expectations and truly accept and love him for who he is. And sometimes, once that point is reached, the unconditional acceptance paves the way for even more progress.

 

--> The biggest shift we had to make wasn't physical, it was mental. We had to accept that Joe was not the dog we envisioned for ourselves. Instead, Joe was Joe. He's not very affectionate, is extremely uncomfortable when someone pet him while lying down, can be unpredictable at time (we're not always sure how he will react to certain situations), prefers peace, quiet, and routine, and is extremely sensitive to pain (both mental and physical). We were never going to have the kind of dog that that we could take with us on vacation, play with our child in the yard, snuggle up with us on the couch, or greet guests warmly when they entered the house or on the street. Once we accepted this (truly accepted this), things became much easier. (Ironically, about a year after we had this change of heart, Joe started joining us on the couch and putting his head on our laps, asking to be petted! He still does this, although it never lasts long - we consider these moments gifts.)