Osteo Thread

[NeylasMom]

Some new research from MIT on "starving" cancer (or why it likely doesn't work as they thought it did...):

 

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/cancer-metabolism-1121.html

Interestingly enough, Dr. Dressler's book talks about the potential pros and cons of using an l-glutamine supplement for dogs with cancer. The pros being that it is believed to have some anti-cancer properties, the cons being that it was theorized that it fed cancer. Hard to tell from that article whether supplementing with it would - if glucose in the bloodstream can't get to the cancer, then would the glutamine from the supplement? But, it would certainly give me pause. I actually bought it for Neyla based on what I had read, but never ended up giving it.

[TwiggysMom]

I am beyond thrilled at the turn of events for Faye Oops! You should’ve seen the giant smile on my face when I read your post earlier today!

 

Gabe’s turnaround is amazing as well! I hope he continues on this track!

 

Jen, I’m glad your regular vet has good equipment, and I completely understand your nerves waiting. (I was soooooo lucky, I walked into my vet’s office unannounced at about 6pm, said I wanted x-rays, and they said “we can take you now”!) I’ll be thinking of you both and am hoping that it is just some residual strain from the injury.

 

Johanna, Hurley sounds a lot like Twiggy with his energy level. I also have mostly wood floors and tile floors, so I think he will learn to adjust pretty well to the floors. I did put down carpets on the larger areas of open slick flooring and the slick stairs. She always has seemed to enjoy doing skids on the floors, and she has learned to do that again. Just try to get him to take it slow for a bit still! Hurley and Pinky who get back to normal within a week or so totally amaze me!!!

 

Some new research from MIT on "starving" cancer (or why it likely doesn't work as they thought it did...):

 

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/cancer-metabolism-1121.html

 

Thanks for the article - it was interesting. What I took out of it is that if there is a more “mature”, or fast-growing larger tumor, that the cancerous cells can change their energy source? It also sounded to me like the theory that starving newer, “shallower” tumors still use glucose as their primary source. If this is true, then I would think that the low-glucose “cancer” diets would still be effective against metastases since they start out as small groups of cancerous cells??? What are your thoughts?

 

Separately, how is Berkeley doing? I’m thinking he should be about due for his next chemo. Is this going to be his last one?

 

Kristen – Great news that Pinky’s staples are out and no more bandage! Does that mean she is 10 days post surgery? She must be about due to start chemo, or do they want to wait until the bladder infection resolves? (poor kid!!!) A little different, but Twiggy got a UTI during chemo, and my vet recommended UroMaxx as a supplement to help prevent future infections. It’s only been about a month, but so far so good. It is a flavored herbal treatment in liquid form that you just add to their meals. Might be worth a try. Also, regarding the path report, it was 14 days before they got Twiggy’s results (hopefully that is good news for both of them!).

 

Can’t believe we’re going to be moving to # IV. And that it has only taken a year to get this far.

Edited November 22, 2011 by TwiggysMom

[BauersMom]

 

Some new research from MIT on "starving" cancer (or why it likely doesn't work as they thought it did...):

 

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/cancer-metabolism-1121.html

 

Thanks for the article - it was interesting. What I took out of it is that if there is a more “mature”, or fast-growing larger tumor, that the cancerous cells can change their energy source? It also sounded to me like the theory that starving newer, “shallower” tumors still use glucose as their primary source. If this is true, then I would think that the low-glucose “cancer” diets would still be effective against metastases since they start out as small groups of cancerous cells??? What are your thoughts?

 

Separately, how is Berkeley doing? I’m thinking he should be about due for his next chemo. Is this going to be his last one?

 

 

I'm not entirely sure from just reading that article (I could look up the original, but far too lazy tonight ) - but it looks like if you starve a cancer cell, it will figure out how to find another energy source. I would think that something like osteo does not have a significant blood source like a tumor on an organ? My degree is in chemistry, not biology for a reason...

 

Berkeley has resumed annoying the heck out of me, which means he's doing GREAT. He is such a PITA dog and I love him for it.

 

Final chemo is Dec 3rd! I'm actually nervous about it - being done with chemo will be great, don't get me wrong, but I just hope we've done enough to have a long time with him.

[krissn333]

When I spoke with Dr. Marin, she said they'd want the path report before they will even send the chemo drugs. I will need to schedule a meeting with the onco vet too probably...or at least a phone consult.

 

So we're probably looking at next week at the earliest, but personally I'd rather resolve the other issues going on before we throw chemo at her. She already has lupus and is more prone to infection if her defenses are down. She has never had a UTI before though, surprisingly.

 

It has been two weeks today since her surgery and other than the UTI, it has been smooth sailing. She is so happy...she is all sprawled out on the couch-something she couldn't do before because the vet wrap would create a non skid surface when scooted along the couch

[NeylasMom]

It's been 2 weeks already?! Wow.

[krissn333]

I know Time flies! On one hand it's hard to believe its been two weeks, but on the other, she has adapted so quickly that it seems like she's been a tripod a lot longer than "just" two weeks. If she didn't have this goofy haircut, it would be a lot less obvious I do hope that it all grows back as quick as possible-winter is coming!

 

LisaB gave us some lightweight jersey knit 4 leg jammies that we'll figure out how to modify to keep her bum warmer when it gets cooler.

[JJNg]

So I have a question. When you have osteo that isn't in the shoulder, is it still typically in a joint, or can they also get it just in the leg bone itself?

Osteosarcoma is always in the bone itself, and almost never crosses joints. When we see signs of cancer on x-rays that affects both bones on either side of a joint, it's usually not osteo, but another type of tumor. The most common locations for osteo in the front leg are proximal humerus (near the shoulder) and distal radius (near the wrist). And the most common locations in the back leg are distal femur and proximal tibia (both near the knee). The way I was taught to remember these locations in vet school was "away from the elbow, and toward the knee". However, osteosarcoma can affect any location in any bone - those are just the most common sites.

 

Hoping that Zuri's x-rays on Saturday are completely clean.

[BauersMom]

I can't believe it's been two weeks either!

 

Berkeley and Pepper went tearing around the yard when I let them out at lunch today. It scared the CRAP out of me. They haven't run together like that since his surgery and it was a lot of zigging and zagging around trees and what not and all I kept thinking was "you are down a leg! slow dowwwwwnnnnnnn!"

 

He kept up with Pepper, amazingly... he was never particularly FAST, but boy, was he motoring.

[winnie]

For those of you using gabapentin - what dosage/frequency do you do? We had Faye Oops on the 300mg 2x/day, but it really weakened her rear end. We now have the 100mg capsules, but not entirely sure what dosage to try yet. I'd rather not do too much trial-and-error. Thanks!

 

ETA... here is a picture of Faye Oops taken last Friday. This was the first day she started to feel better. She carried that bird toy from the house, down the stairs, and trotted around with it in the yard. She clearly had other plans when it came to crossing the bridge.

 

Edited November 22, 2011 by winnie

[NeylasMom]

Aww, she's so cute with her toy.

 

Did you already back down off the 300 twice a day? If not, I would just switch to 200 3 times a day and see how she tolerates that. If you have, what dose is she currently on?

 

Part of your problem may have been that you weren't able to gradually increase her dose so it would help to know what she's tolerating now.

 

So glad Berkeley had a fun and safe run. I'm sure you breathed a huge sigh of relief when he was done.

[winnie]

We just got the 100mg capsules of the gabapentin last night. The 300mg 2x/day - even after a week - was really making her hind end week. I gave her 200mg this morning, but she still walks like a drunken sailor. So, just gave her 100mg for her early evening dose. Not sure how much to give before bedtime.

[NeylasMom]

So she was on the 300 mg until this morning? I would try 100 mg 3x/day and see how that goes.

[joejoesmom]

We just got the 100mg capsules of the gabapentin last night. The 300mg 2x/day - even after a week - was really making her hind end week. I gave her 200mg this morning, but she still walks like a drunken sailor. So, just gave her 100mg for her early evening dose. Not sure how much to give before bedtime.

 

Speaking from someone who has taken gabapentin herself, if I increased my dose too quickly I would get woozy. So if the pain is otherwise under control, I would start with 100mg two to three times a day. If scheduling allows, I would work up to 100 mg every 3 or 4 hours and back off if she shows the side affects. Of course, if she is in pain, you could make the decision to increase the gabapentin quicker and wait out the side effects. They typically go away with time -- in other words, the longer she is on it, the fewer the side affects.

 

Jane

[krissn333]

Will have to get some new Pinky videos tomorrow for y'all. We have a LOT to be thankful for this Thanksgiving

 

I am just in awe of this dog. When the rowdy pack heads out into the yard, youd think a 3 legged dog would kind of stay back, be a little tentative....not Pinky! She's right there shoving her way through with the rest of them! Never in my wildest dreams did I think hat this ordeal would be so damn easy on her. She continues to amaze me every day and I'm so proud to be her momma

[tbhounds]

We just got the 100mg capsules of the gabapentin last night. The 300mg 2x/day - even after a week - was really making her hind end week. I gave her 200mg this morning, but she still walks like a drunken sailor. So, just gave her 100mg for her early evening dose. Not sure how much to give before bedtime.

 

Speaking from someone who has taken gabapentin herself, if I increased my dose too quickly I would get woozy. So if the pain is otherwise under control, I would start with 100mg two to three times a day. If scheduling allows, I would work up to 100 mg every 3 or 4 hours and back off if she shows the side affects. Of course, if she is in pain, you could make the decision to increase the gabapentin quicker and wait out the side effects. They typically go away with time -- in other words, the longer she is on it, the fewer the side affects.

 

Jane

Yup- what Jane says! Can I ask why your vet is not giving you these answers??! Not trying to sound harsh but, it doesn't seem like your vet has given you much guidance or is it coming across that way? I understand I don't know exactly what conversations you have had together so I should just zip it--I'm just concerned that's all.

Absolutely love Faye's picture- so glad she's still able to have fun!

Edited November 23, 2011 by tbhounds

[robinw]

So I have a question. When you have osteo that isn't in the shoulder, is it still typically in a joint, or can they also get it just in the leg bone itself?

Osteosarcoma is always in the bone itself, and almost never crosses joints. When we see signs of cancer on x-rays that affects both bones on either side of a joint, it's usually not osteo, but another type of tumor. The most common locations for osteo in the front leg are proximal humerus (near the shoulder) and distal radius (near the wrist). And the most common locations in the back leg are distal femur and proximal tibia (both near the knee). The way I was taught to remember these locations in vet school was "away from the elbow, and toward the knee". However, osteosarcoma can affect any location in any bone - those are just the most common sites.

my friend's greyhound had osteo in a rib. he survived quite a while; over a year without treatment.

Edited November 23, 2011 by robinw

[Guest snakes]

FedX's gabapentin dosing here has been changed depending on pain level. We started at 100mg twice a day. When the pain was particularly bad he was on 200mg 3x/day. At one point he got 200mg in the morning and 100mg at lunch and briefly another 100mg at dinner.

Currently he gets 200mg in the morning and 200mg at lunch.

 

Keep in mind this is on my schedule where I work 3p-1130p so most of our activity is in the morning hours.

 

Also remember that to see full effects of a dose you need to do the same dosing for 48hrs for the level to be good/correct in the blood.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Thank you all for these gabapentin discussions. You're being very helpful.

 

Sam was diagnosed with lung cancer last week. It's several spots in his lungs, and we're thinking that what showed on the x-rays was mets from some primary cancer we haven't found.

 

Sam has back issues, but x-rays haven't revealed cancer in his spine--just some arthritis and a slightly herniated disk at L5. For those issues, he takes methocarbamol twice daily and half a meloxicam once a day. (He gets a pepcid; 30 minutes later he gets breakfast, then his pills.)

 

After chest x-rays and a lower spine x-ray last Monday, Sam wasn't in the mood for more x-rays. My usually placid boy fought the staff on the spinal x-ray, so we stopped. It's not worth stressing him out just to try to figure out where the primary cancer is lurking.

 

Sam doesn't appear to be in pain: he plays with his sister (that is, he invites her to play, she ignores him, and he does zoomies in the living room on his own). He eats normally (that is, everything I put in his dish and anything he can snag off the kitchen counter or out of the trash can). His legs all appear fine--no limping, no signs of pain.

 

But for the last three nights, he hasn't slept. No panting or whining, but he naps a bit, gets up, drinks some water, licks his food dish, surveys the kitchen counters, pokes his head into the trash can, circles through the breakfast room, then comes back to bed. An hour later, he does the same thing. All night, all three nights. And this is a boy who usually crashes for the night and sleeps a sold nine hours. There's no whining, panting, hunched posture--no excessive licking; just no normal sleep. For either of us.

 

On my way home from work tonight, I went by my vet's. We discussed pain meds as well as a plain ol' sedative. I told my vet I wanted gabapentin in a 100mg formula, and told him about the dosing you guys are doing on your dogs with osteo. My vet just said, "Sounds fine" and wrote the prescription. And another prescription for valium.

 

Sam had a 100mg gabapentin capsule and one valium with his dinner an hour ago. He's stretched out on his side on his bed, sleeping, hooting, twitching his feet, and just plain ol' sleeping deeply. I'm sure it's too soon for the gabapentin to have kicked in, but we're going to move gingerly with the gabapentin, knowing what to watch for if the dose is too high for him.

 

So your gabapentin discussions that are helping Faye Oops are helping Sam, too.

[winnie]

Cool! Not about Sam's cancer, of course, but that we can all help each other. The gabapentin has helped Faye Oops, but we need to get her dosage right. On the 300mg twice a day she walks like a drunken sailer. I hope we can figure out a happy number - one that keeps her pain to a minimum, allows her to sleep comfortably, and allows her to walk properly. Keep us posted on what works for Sam.

[EllenEveBaz]

Hugs to all.

[vjgrey]

Gabe is on 300mg gabapentin twice a day, but he's a fairly big boy (81lbs). It never made him wobbly, but it did make him really sleepy the first week or so. Now, not so much.

[vjgrey]

This morning, Gabe had a tech appointment for a blood draw. That's all it was supposed to be - in and out with the tech. But when she saw how amazingly improved Gabe was, she said she had to take him back to see our oncologist. She said he'd been really worried about him since we were last in.

 

When we went in last Friday (before radiation), Gabe needed sling support and two vet techs to help him walk. Today, he was prancing, flirting with and play bowing to a lab in the waiting area, and he's walking with no noticeable limp.

 

Our oncologist said seeing that was his "Thanksgiving present." We really our oncology center.

[krissn333]

Great job, Gabe

 

New Pinky pic and video over in C&F

[winnie]

Great news about Gabe!

 

Apparently, I didn't need to worry about how Faye Oops would handle a house full of company. She seems to thrive being in the middle of things. Everyone is being gentle with her. My 6 y/o niece even made her a get well soon card. Hoping for a completely uneventful Thanksgiving and next several days.

[robinw]

This morning, Gabe had a tech appointment for a blood draw. That's all it was supposed to be - in and out with the tech. But when she saw how amazingly improved Gabe was, she said she had to take him back to see our oncologist. She said he'd been really worried about him since we were last in.

 

When we went in last Friday (before radiation), Gabe needed sling support and two vet techs to help him walk. Today, he was prancing, flirting with and play bowing to a lab in the waiting area, and he's walking with no noticeable limp.

 

Our oncologist said seeing that was his "Thanksgiving present." We really our oncology center.

Gabe, too? I'm so sorry Glad he's feeling good.

 

Great that Faye Opps is having such a good time, but that doesn't surprise me at all

Edited November 23, 2011 by robinw