Osteo Thread

[Guest carla7]

My heart goes out to all of you on this thread. We lost our very first grey to Osteosarcoma and have gone on to be on our 4th grey. We just lost our 3rd grey (had 2 at one time) to hemangiosarcoma on July 1 which was hard but we thought we can get through it as we still have our 4th grey, Taylor's Moonbeam. We found out about 3 weeks after Dixie passed that he also has hemangiosarcoma and had multiple tumors removed. I had found another one and took him into the vet for that plus some lameness and was shocked to find out that the hemangiosarcoma is the least of our worries. He has Osteosarcoma high up in the back hip near the spine. Because of the location, amputation is not an issue and the vet said that chemo won't work for this kind of osteo. So Pallative care is our only option. We will go back to the vet on Thursday and get a second round of xrays to see how fast progressing this case of osteosarcoma is. That will determine a lot of things but right now he is on Tramadol and Deramaxx. I will say that since we started the medication, he is back to his old self-no lameness, running, rambunctious and happy. We know that there will be an end much sooner than we care for but I haven't been ready to part with any of the previous three.

 

All of you will be in our thoughts and prayers. I don't understand why greys seem to get cancer so much but I know that we have loved every one of them and life has been richer for them and us.

 

Hello Betsy:

I am so very sorry to hear about your furbaby. We, too, are hoping for good quality of life w/palliative care. I cannot believe how many greyhounds seem to have this cancer. Do you think it is genetic or because of their previous life racing????

 

My neighbor used to have a beautiful and so friendly greyhound. She used to saunter off her porch to greet me whenever I came home! I started carrying dog biscuits with me so I could give her one each night. She seemed quite intelligent and I used to want to take her home with me everytime I saw her

Is Deramaxx a NSAID? Our baby is on Tramadol and Rimadyl and the same has happened where she seems perfectly fine.......for now at least. Sending you lots of good karma and prayers for your baby.

Carla

[Guest Betsy]

 

Hello Betsy:

I am so very sorry to hear about your furbaby. We, too, are hoping for good quality of life w/palliative care. I cannot believe how many greyhounds seem to have this cancer. Do you think it is genetic or because of their previous life racing????

 

My neighbor used to have a beautiful and so friendly greyhound. She used to saunter off her porch to greet me whenever I came home! I started carrying dog biscuits with me so I could give her one each night. She seemed quite intelligent and I used to want to take her home with me everytime I saw her

Is Deramaxx a NSAID? Our baby is on Tramadol and Rimadyl and the same has happened where she seems perfectly fine.......for now at least. Sending you lots of good karma and prayers for your baby.

Carla

Carla,

thanks for your kind words. I am not sure why greys get so much cancer. I have heard that large breeds get osteosarcoma very readily but we have lost two to hemangiosarcoma (blood vessel cancer) and one (will be two) to osteosarcoma. I just wish there was some way to prevent it.

 

Yes Deramaxx is a NSAID. Rimadyl is #1 and Deramaxx is #2 but my vet has always preferred Deramaxx. I don't know why. I just want Taylor to enjoy life and when I see that he is not enjoying it, it will be time to let him go.

I dread that day.

[NeylasMom]

For anyone with a relatively newly diagnosed pup willing to consider herbal or holistic options, I highly recommend the artemisinin board that's linked in the first post. Those of you who have been hanging out in here for a long time know that I used it with Neyla from very early on. Our full regimen should still be posted in the database of the yahoo group.

 

Sorry to see so many new faces in here recently.

[Charlies_Dad]

Betsy,

 

I am very sorry to read of your pups diagnosis, it isn't fair to lose so many to this horrid disease no matter what form it comes in. I agree with Jen that Artemisinin is something you should consider as we use it for Charlie and source it from Holly Pharmaceuticals. We also use a number of other holistic treatments for Charlie, so much that we have a matrix by week as to what he gets by day. I hope you have many, many more happy days with your pup.

[greyhoundlady]

I have been reading this thread because my beautiful boy, Saber, has just been diagnosed with osteo. To say I am devastated is to put it mildly. It was only about 2 weeks ago that I was on Greytalk to ask about a ramp suggestion for the car, as he started to limp a bit, and the vet said she thought it was arthritis. He will be 10 years old in October. He has been the picture of health up to this point and also my heart dog. I had two greys - but I lost my female, Cheyenne, at the end of this past January to pericardial effusion due to a tumor on her heart. It was quick for her and painful for us. Now I am looking at my boy here, and I just can't believe this is happening.

 

I am in the group who will not choose amputation. The osteo is in his rear leg/hip area. I know my guy and he will not adjust to that type of surgery. I know we all have our own strong feelings on this, and I respect everyone for theirs. We are going the route of pain management. I, too, am doing the steak and ice cream for him. He gets Cheerios in milk for breakfast when he wants it (a favorite) and I boil stew beef, chicken livers, my own personal doggie meatloaf, and just about anything else that will make him happy. I have found that putting the pills I have to give him in a bit of butter helps make them go down smoothly. He loves to take them that way.

 

Well, thanks for reading this. It helps a little to get it out. My husband and I have been taking turns sleeping in the living room with Saber because he has lots more room to settle on his bed(s) and seems to be most comfortable there. He used to sleep in our bedroom, but he needs more space to settle in now. He also doesn't want to be left alone. And he won't be.

 

I'll be reading more on this dreadful disease. I hate that so many are going through this - it does somehow help a little to have a source to go to (Greytalk). Thank you.

[Batmom]

I'm so sorry to hear Saber's diagnosis. Sending lots of hugs to you and gentle scritchies to your boy, who is very lucky to have you watching out for him.

[MaryJane]

Betsy,

 

I am very sorry to read of your pups diagnosis, it isn't fair to lose so many to this horrid disease no matter what form it comes in. I agree with Jen that Artemisinin is something you should consider as we use it for Charlie and source it from Holly Pharmaceuticals. We also use a number of other holistic treatments for Charlie, so much that we have a matrix by week as to what he gets by day. I hope you have many, many more happy days with your pup.

 

Can you elaborate more on the other holistic treatments that you give Charlie?

[Charlies_Dad]

I am very sorry to read of another who has joined this group, Saber. I hope that you have many many more happy days with him and as you are doing, spoil him rotten. Please give him a hug from me.

 

 

 

Can you elaborate more on the other holistic treatments that you give Charlie?

 

Certainly! The best way would be to direct you to my DW's blog as she noted everything down in detail as I know I would just bugger it up if I listed it out. You can see Charlie's and our other pups diet and if you scroll down this page, you will see the supplements that we give him daily.

[greyhoundlady]

Thank you Batmom and Charlie's Dad for your kind support (and all that I know are thinking it). I need that. I guess what I really am is a bit scared and don't know what to expect. This is alien territory for me. (I know I am not alone in that.) Saber is on the prescription drugs of Rimadyl, Tramadol, Gabapentin and had one intravenous session of Pamidronate. This was last Thursday. I have to call the oncologist tomorrow (Tuesday) to give him an update on how Saber is doing. He is still limping and I know his hip is bothering him. He very gingerly lowers himself into a semi-sit before laying down on his bed. Sometimes he grunts with the effort. As I watch him, I find myself literally holding my breath until he is down.

[greysmom]

It's really part of what sucks the most about this hideous disease. Everyone's experience is completely different and there's no way to say *this* will come after *this* and then you'll have *that" and maybe *something else." So there's not even any comfort that can be found in knowing what's going to happen. We can be here for all our friends and tell of our own journeys, but Saber's will be his own.

 

Cherish each and every moment. Take pictures. Spoil him rotten. Keep him comfortable and happy and pain free as long as possible. When it's time, let him go. I HATE cancer.

[Guest carla7]

I have been reading this thread because my beautiful boy, Saber, has just been diagnosed with osteo. To say I am devastated is to put it mildly. It was only about 2 weeks ago that I was on Greytalk to ask about a ramp suggestion for the car, as he started to limp a bit, and the vet said she thought it was arthritis. He will be 10 years old in October. He has been the picture of health up to this point and also my heart dog. I had two greys - but I lost my female, Cheyenne, at the end of this past January to pericardial effusion due to a tumor on her heart. It was quick for her and painful for us. Now I am looking at my boy here, and I just can't believe this is happening.

 

I am in the group who will not choose amputation. The osteo is in his rear leg/hip area. I know my guy and he will not adjust to that type of surgery. I know we all have our own strong feelings on this, and I respect everyone for theirs. We are going the route of pain management. I, too, am doing the steak and ice cream for him. He gets Cheerios in milk for breakfast when he wants it (a favorite) and I boil stew beef, chicken livers, my own personal doggie meatloaf, and just about anything else that will make him happy. I have found that putting the pills I have to give him in a bit of butter helps make them go down smoothly. He loves to take them that way.

 

Well, thanks for reading this. It helps a little to get it out. My husband and I have been taking turns sleeping in the living room with Saber because he has lots more room to settle on his bed(s) and seems to be most comfortable there. He used to sleep in our bedroom, but he needs more space to settle in now. He also doesn't want to be left alone. And he won't be.

 

I'll be reading more on this dreadful disease. I hate that so many are going through this - it does somehow help a little to have a source to go to (Greytalk). Thank you.

 

I am so very sorry to hear about Saber's dx. There is a lot of information on the cancerdog board that may be helpful to you. I learned quite a bit by reading up there also. I,too, am doing palliative tx without amputation. However, I am planning to try Pamidronate treatment. It is supposed to really be helpful with strengthening the bone as well as with pain and others seem to have good result with it. If finances are not an issue, maybe your vet would be able to speak to you about this. It's also only given once a month or so which means less time at the vets than for a chemo based regimen. Hugs to you.

Carla

[Sirocco_Nikki]

I am sorry to hear that Saber is joining the OS club also. You are making your decision out of love, which means it is the right one.

 

There is no one correct treatment option. Each dog is different. They are diagnosed at different points. They react differently to treatment. They have different access to care. Their family have different circumstances, including financial.

 

We treated Sirocco with pain control and lots of strawberry shortcakes only. He had very significant separation anxiety. Any time we gained would not have been worth the trauma he suffered from being separated from us. He has been 1 year and 22 days now and I have never regretted our decision once.

 

We never knew that Nikki even had OS until her leg shattered suddenly 11 days ago. No lump (unlike Sirocco)and no limp (unlike Sirocco). Looking back, the only sign was that she'd been licking the site where her leg eventually broke for a couple months. No reason for the vet to recommend an xray since there was no pain response when he examined the leg. Her leg still didn't display the classic signs of OS even after it broke. It took a very experienced radiologist to point it out.

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that we are all doing the best we can. We weren't negligent. We didn't cause it. We couldn't prevent it. We've all been handling the evil demon tossed our way the best we can. The important thing is that we stick together until no more dogs are taken from us by this disease.

 

cancer sucks.

[45MPHK9]

Post deleted.

Edited August 31, 2011 by 45MPHK9

[robinw]

I am sorry to hear that Saber is joining the OS club also. You are making your decision out of love, which means it is the right one.

 

There is no one correct treatment option. Each dog is different. They are diagnosed at different points. They react differently to treatment. They have different access to care. Their family have different circumstances, including financial.

 

We treated Sirocco with pain control and lots of strawberry shortcakes only. He had very significant separation anxiety. Any time we gained would not have been worth the trauma he suffered from being separated from us. He has been 1 year and 22 days now and I have never regretted our decision once.

 

We never knew that Nikki even had OS until her leg shattered suddenly 11 days ago. No lump (unlike Sirocco)and no limp (unlike Sirocco). Looking back, the only sign was that she'd been licking the site where her leg eventually broke for a couple months. No reason for the vet to recommend an xray since there was no pain response when he examined the leg. Her leg still didn't display the classic signs of OS even after it broke. It took a very experienced radiologist to point it out.

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that we are all doing the best we can. We weren't negligent. We didn't cause it. We couldn't prevent it. We've all been handling the evil demon tossed our way the best we can. The important thing is that we stick together until no more dogs are taken from us by this disease.

 

cancer sucks.

Thank you, Carol. There are lots of treatment options. I chose to use pain control only with Phoenix and I sent him to the bridge after his first bad episode? Was it too soon? No. Was I negligent because I didn't opt to amputate or treat with herbal medicines? No, I wasn't. I treated Phoenix out of love and the strong, strong belief that two days of suffering was two days too many. He wasn't going to get better. Osteo was already causing him intense pain. I never even raised his meds beyond his prescription. I honestly felt that to do that would subject him to yet more pain. The way I handled it wasn't for everybody, but it was the right choice for Phoenix. I have absolutely no regrets.

 

For all of the new members of this thread, I'm so sorry. Try to stay strong and love your hounds.

Edited August 30, 2011 by robinw

[Batmom]

two days of suffering was two days too many. He wasn't going to get better. Osteo was already causing him intense pain. I never even raised his meds beyond his prescription. I honestly felt that to do that would subject him to yet more pain.

 

Wise words. Thank you.

[Guest suzanne]

Welcome to all the other newbies in this thread. I'm sorry you have to be here.

 

Freya is still doing really well, roaching each morning and full of the joys of spring in the house. Her energy levels are very low on walks and she needs regular rests on even short walks but when it comes to relaxing at home, she's in great form.

 

I thought I'd share a story about her, which goes part of the way to explaining how special she is, and how difficult this is for us.

 

We brought Freya, and our other hound, home on a Friday. She was still quite timid, happy enough to be patted but you would go to her, not her to you. A day or so later we brought the dogs over to visit my mam. We always had dogs growing up but they were never as big as greyhounds and I knew my mam was nervous of them just because of their size. Anyway, at this time my mam hadn't been feeling well for a few months and no doctor could diagnose what was wrong. This was also the same day she was being sent into hospital to undergo lots of tests. Anyway, as soon as we went in to the house, Freya latched on to my mam. She went as far as following her up the stairs - and Freya had only learned how to 'do' stairs the day before. This was, from what we'd seen so far, out of character. She wanted to glue herself to my mam's side and would not be taken away. We all thought it was sweet and didn't think much of it. A few weeks later mam was still in hospital and the doctors finally diagnosed her with cancer. Every time after that that we visited with Freya she did the same thing of attaching herself to mam, watching her, wanting to be with her. She does not do this with anyone else, dog or human.

 

I can only think that she knew before all the idiot doctors that mam was really sick and she was trying to be caring and protective towards her. My mam passed away 10 weeks ago at the age of 58. I'm 24. It's been a bigger shock and blow than anything I could ever imagine in the world and I miss her every moment. In some weird twist of fate, two weeks after she passed away, Freya was diagnosed with the osteo. She had been fine up until mam passed away and then started to limp badly.

 

I don't know how I'm going to cope with losing my girl after losing my mam, but a part of me feels like Freya wants to go and find mam and keep on protecting her. I have never in my life met a more empathetic and caring dog. My other two hounds are not remotely like this, and nor were our previous dogs. It's amazing what our dogs do for us.

[Guest Betsy]

First, let me thank you all for your kind words and support. While I wish someone had a magic wand, it does help to know that we are not alone and that others feel our pain and care.

 

Sirocco Nikki makes some great points in her post. "There is no one correct treatment option. Each dog is different. They are diagnosed at different points. They react differently to treatment. They have different access to care. Their family have different circumstances, including financial.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that we are all doing the best we can. We weren't negligent. We didn't cause it. We couldn't prevent it. We've all been handling the evil demon tossed our way the best we can. The important thing is that we stick together until no more dogs are taken from us by this disease.

 

cancer sucks."

 

Charlies Dad - where is DW blog? I don't see where you mentioned that we can find it.

 

greyhound Lady - I am very sorry about Saber. I understand re Cheyenne - we lost our second grey, Denny to a tumor on his heart which the vet says is a form of the hemangiosarcoma. I can't read your post out loud about the food or Taylor will want to come live at your house! Boy did I identify though about Saber and the pain and laying down. Taylor was crying out anytime he had to lay down before he was put on the meds. Before when he got a treat, he went to his special place and laid down and ate it. Now he gets it, he goes to the same place but eats it with his front part of his body down and his butt still up in the air. Kind of funny, when you watch... But I am so glad to see him running again, not crying out, jumping around and almost normal now that he is on the pain medication. I am going to look into the Artemisinin.

 

I don't know why our vet is against chemo for Taylor. He mentioned that amputation is not an option due to the location of the cancer -too near the spine and too high in the hip. He mentioned that there is a form of chemo that they could talk about doing but that basically, it would just slow down the disease and not cure it. He said that Taylor will have to be put too sleep eventually but until we do this next round of xrays, we don't know if it is a month, 3 months or what. It matters how fast or progressive the cancer is. I was kind of wondering why I was bringing him home again if I was facing the inevitable but after seeing him on these drugs, I am encouraged that we don't have to say goodbye just yet. I know that each vet is different and thought about taking him somewhere else but this vet has greys himself and has lost one to Osteosarcoma and really loves Taylor. I keep reminding myself that Taylor has had us for 8 years which is long for a grey. He was a returned adoptee and was a great racer, but couldn't run straight. He bumped the other dogs and although he won almost ever race, was disqualified from many. The first couple that adopted him returned him after 30 days-found out they were pregnant and didn't want a big dog with a baby. Dixie chose Taylor and he has been my velcro dog. He loves all of us but he is my dog. Follows me everywhere and watches for me to come home. When I am away on business, DH says he just stares at the garage door and cries the first couple of days. He lays on top of my legs in bed and won't even let me go to the restroom by myself. He is a Mama's Boy. I dread the day.

 

My prayers are with you all and make the best decision for you and your hound.

[greyhoundlady]

First, let me thank you all for your kind words and support. While I wish someone had a magic wand, it does help to know that we are not alone and that others feel our pain and care.

 

Sirocco Nikki makes some great points in her post. "There is no one correct treatment option. Each dog is different. They are diagnosed at different points. They react differently to treatment. They have different access to care. Their family have different circumstances, including financial.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that we are all doing the best we can. We weren't negligent. We didn't cause it. We couldn't prevent it. We've all been handling the evil demon tossed our way the best we can. The important thing is that we stick together until no more dogs are taken from us by this disease.

 

cancer sucks."

 

Charlies Dad - where is DW blog? I don't see where you mentioned that we can find it.

 

greyhound Lady - I am very sorry about Saber. I understand re Cheyenne - we lost our second grey, Denny to a tumor on his heart which the vet says is a form of the hemangiosarcoma. I can't read your post out loud about the food or Taylor will want to come live at your house! Boy did I identify though about Saber and the pain and laying down. Taylor was crying out anytime he had to lay down before he was put on the meds. Before when he got a treat, he went to his special place and laid down and ate it. Now he gets it, he goes to the same place but eats it with his front part of his body down and his butt still up in the air. Kind of funny, when you watch... But I am so glad to see him running again, not crying out, jumping around and almost normal now that he is on the pain medication. I am going to look into the Artemisinin.

 

I don't know why our vet is against chemo for Taylor. He mentioned that amputation is not an option due to the location of the cancer -too near the spine and too high in the hip. He mentioned that there is a form of chemo that they could talk about doing but that basically, it would just slow down the disease and not cure it. He said that Taylor will have to be put too sleep eventually but until we do this next round of xrays, we don't know if it is a month, 3 months or what. It matters how fast or progressive the cancer is. I was kind of wondering why I was bringing him home again if I was facing the inevitable but after seeing him on these drugs, I am encouraged that we don't have to say goodbye just yet. I know that each vet is different and thought about taking him somewhere else but this vet has greys himself and has lost one to Osteosarcoma and really loves Taylor. I keep reminding myself that Taylor has had us for 8 years which is long for a grey. He was a returned adoptee and was a great racer, but couldn't run straight. He bumped the other dogs and although he won almost ever race, was disqualified from many. The first couple that adopted him returned him after 30 days-found out they were pregnant and didn't want a big dog with a baby. Dixie chose Taylor and he has been my velcro dog. He loves all of us but he is my dog. Follows me everywhere and watches for me to come home. When I am away on business, DH says he just stares at the garage door and cries the first couple of days. He lays on top of my legs in bed and won't even let me go to the restroom by myself. He is a Mama's Boy. I dread the day.

 

My prayers are with you all and make the best decision for you and your hound.

 

Hi Betsy -

Thank you, and everyone, for all your wonderful support. I hate that we are in this 'club' but it is so very helpful to feel all the caring. At first, when I told my husband I was reading these posts, he said he could never do that because it was just so very painful for him. Now, when I tell him what people have posted and that we are not alone in our sadness, he, too, is thankful you are there.

 

As I read your post, Betsy, I can see how much Taylor seems like Saber. Saber loves his treats, especially Greenies. Whenever he would get a Greenie he would actually run into the back room, 'sphinx' down and proceed to enjoy the Greenie with gusto. Now that his leg/hip are hurting him, he would take the Greenie, hobble into the back room and just lean down on his front legs, with his elbows on the floor and his butt high in the air. As you described Taylor. Now he doesn't eat the Greenie (too much work) but will take his cookies because he can stand and crunch them. These things shoot me straight to my heart.

 

The oncologist we went to told me that they could not do chemo without doing amputation because they need to get the 'source' of the cancer and that the chemo took care of any left over cancer cells that may be circling around. The chemo would not take care of the source. As we are not doing amputation, then chemo wasn't an option. When he told me about the radiation, and that it could weaken the bone and cause it to shatter, I decided against that too.

 

Saber has always been a jumper - he would even leap high in the air when it was time to eat and he knew something good was in the bowl. He still makes that attempt, but I have to watch him closely so he doesn't do that. I don't need the threat of a bone shattering - but from reading other posts, that is a real concern.

 

As I mentioned in my other post, we have done an intravenous of pamidronate as well as Rimadyl, Tramadol and Gabapentin. I am worried, though, because although it has only been 5 days on this, he still seems to struggle a bit when he tries to lay down. He never 'sat' in his life, but that is what he does now so he can get into the laying down position - a side-sit on his good side, and then he can lay down. Once he is down he is fine - he doesn't cry and looks very comfortable. I have to call the oncologist today to give him an update, so I guess I will find out more.

 

I am most afraid of the 'Is this too soon or too late' decision. I just don't think he is ready - he eats up a storm, looks for us, follows me from room to room, and still wants to go outside to do his 'business'. It is only the awful problem of him trying to lay down. I still literally hold my breath watching him, and then I start to breathe again when he is down.

 

You are all wonderful to share - it so helps. Thank you.

[Charlies_Dad]

 

 

Charlies Dad - where is DW blog? I don't see where you mentioned that we can find it.

 

 

 

Betsy, sorry I must have forgotten to paste it into my reply! That will teach me to be working and on GT and the same time. It is: http://pinneyandpnut.blogspot.com/search/label/Dog%20Health.

 

I will comment on your statement concerning your vet stating chemo is not viable for your pup. He/she is correct it does not cure cancer nor make it go away. You are trying to reduce/control cancer from mets (secondary tumour). There are no guarantees regardless and if one chooses pain management as you have for your pup, I don't believe many vets recommend it. Bottom line though is you make the choices for your pup and can do as you so choose.

[NeylasMom]

Thank you Batmom and Charlie's Dad for your kind support (and all that I know are thinking it). I need that. I guess what I really am is a bit scared and don't know what to expect. This is alien territory for me. (I know I am not alone in that.) Saber is on the prescription drugs of Rimadyl, Tramadol, Gabapentin and had one intravenous session of Pamidronate. This was last Thursday. I have to call the oncologist tomorrow (Tuesday) to give him an update on how Saber is doing. He is still limping and I know his hip is bothering him. He very gingerly lowers himself into a semi-sit before laying down on his bed. Sometimes he grunts with the effort. As I watch him, I find myself literally holding my breath until he is down.

I'm so sorry to hear about Saber's diagnosis. The one thing I would encourage you to consider, and I see you raised concerns about it in yoru most recent post is to increase his pain meds. If he is unable to lie down and get back up easily, his pain is not managed. If you share the dosages he's on, we may be able to help.

 

Reading these threads ever since Neyla was diagnosed I've come to the conclusion that many vets are very conservative with the doses they prescribe of these various pain meds. That's a wise choice when you're looking at chronic issues, but when you're talking about end of life care and a very painful disease, long term side effects of meds aren't really much of a consideration. That's not to say you should go overboard - there are more immediate side effects (mostly dizziness or sedation with Tramadol and Gabapentin, but NSAIDs do carry the risk of a stomach ulcer, which is much more serious) that should be weighed when determining quality of life, but imho the main priority needs to be controlling pain.

 

That's a general side rant for everyone, not directed personally at you greyhoundlady.

 

When he told me about the radiation, and that it could weaken the bone and cause it to shatter, I decided against that too.

I don't believe this is true. The danger is that the radiation relieves the pain to the extent that the dog is more active and that causes the bone to break. The same risk is there with IV pamidronate or to some extent pain medication. And sometimes, for example as you've read from Sirocco_Nikki's post, the bone just breaks with no warning and no other sign of the cancer. It's a bit of a crapshoot unfortunately.

 

 

Carol, I'm glad to see you popped in here. My heart just broke for you guys when I read about Nikki. I hope you're hanging in there.

[greyhoundlady]

Thanks, Neylas Mom, I will admit I don't know much at all about pain medication. I am relying on my vet(s) to direct me - but you raise a very good point about them being conservative. All this is very new to me. This may sound like a dumb question, but does Saber need to be on enough med dosage that he absolutely feels no pain at all when he gets up and down? Or do we aim for minor discomfort? Sorry, I know the more experienced may be thinking What is wrong with her?, but that is why I am here

 

Right now Saber is on:

600mg Gabapentin 1/2 pill 3x a day

75mg Rimadyl 2x a day

50mg Tramadol 2 pills 3x a day

 

He also had the infusion of Pamidronate last Thursday (bone strengthener) which is done monthly.

[Guest snakes]

Thanks, Neylas Mom, I will admit I don't know much at all about pain medication. I am relying on my vet(s) to direct me - but you raise a very good point about them being conservative. All this is very new to me. This may sound like a dumb question, but does Saber need to be on enough med dosage that he absolutely feels no pain at all when he gets up and down? Or do we aim for minor discomfort? Sorry, I know the more experienced may be thinking What is wrong with her?, but that is why I am here

 

Right now Saber is on:

600mg Gabapentin 1/2 pill 3x a day

75mg Rimadyl 2x a day

50mg Tramadol 2 pills 3x a day

 

He also had the infusion of Pamidronate last Thursday (bone strengthener) which is done monthly.

 

No dumb questions...pain management is a difficult thing and different for everyone.

Personally I think it depends on the dog and how you are comfortable. When FedX is completely pain free he tends to run and jump more then tweaking his leg which causes substantial pain and limping. So I keep him mostly pain free, he usually is a bit sore when first getting up but it gets better as he walks. I keep him at a pain free level to keep him walking too.

 

Just a question though, all the gabapentin I have ever encountered with FedX and at work (i am a nurse) is always a powder in a capsule. how do you give 1/2 a pill? I wonder also if it is a tablet if maybe it isn't getting absorbed as well given dogs short digestive tract? I get my gabapentin at a human pharmacy.

[greysmom]

Regarding the pain management issue, I do think that vets - and even human doctors - don't consider pain management as much as they should. This is a subject that is just beginning to be talked about in human medicine - what's right, what's moral, how and when. Especially when it comes to end of life care. I don't think most doctors know what *human* hospice care is for or how it works, and this is essentially what we are talking about when we choose palliative care over more aggressive treatments for our pups.

 

They aren't going to get better, so considering long-term (as in more than 12-24 months) effects of medications seems counter-productive. We do want our pups as healthy as they they can be for as long as they can be, but being conservative with pain management is a mind-set vets need to come to terms with in this situation. It's a quality of life issue and pain is one of the most easily controlled, at least to a certain extent.

 

Hugs to everyone!

[Guest suzanne]

I'm beginning to worry that Freya isn't on enough medication. She is not on half what all of the dogs in this thread are on :-/ I wonder do American vets medicate more than Irish or something or what is it. She is on a dose of metacam for a 30kg dog once a day and she gets 500mg paracetamol a day, 250 of which is given in the AM, the rest the PM. She seems good to me lately BUT she is a very stoic dog and i met her the week she was taken in in terrible state (see my before pic of her earlier in the thread) and she was acting happy that day too. She's eating very well. Thinking of going back to the vet this week for a check up. We never really discussed having check ups or anything. :-///

 

oh we also have tramadol which we give her when she seems in particular pain.

[NeylasMom]

Thanks, Neylas Mom, I will admit I don't know much at all about pain medication. I am relying on my vet(s) to direct me - but you raise a very good point about them being conservative. All this is very new to me. This may sound like a dumb question, but does Saber need to be on enough med dosage that he absolutely feels no pain at all when he gets up and down? Or do we aim for minor discomfort? Sorry, I know the more experienced may be thinking What is wrong with her?, but that is why I am here

 

Right now Saber is on:

600mg Gabapentin 1/2 pill 3x a day

75mg Rimadyl 2x a day

50mg Tramadol 2 pills 3x a day

 

He also had the infusion of Pamidronate last Thursday (bone strengthener) which is done monthly.

I have heard repeatedly from human accounts that bone cancer is very painful and we know that (dramatic GSOD moments aside ) our pups are good at hiding real pain, so I am personally of the belief that if you can see that your pup is in pain, it's not managed well enough. I don't believe in keeping them in a little bit of pain to keep them from being active either. With Neyla, I kept my eye on the tumor progression with periodic radiographs and felt comfortable letting her be her normal active self based on what I saw. I did try to minimize risk in the ways that I could without reducing her quality of life, namely not letting her off lead in large spaces (which wasn't an issue for us because I don't have a yard) and building steps for her to get on and off of our furniture and in and out of the car so she wasn't ever jumping down onto that leg.

 

Having said all of that, you don't have a whole lot of room to move up from your current doses. Not sure how much Saber weighs, but for comparison, Neyla at 56 lbs was allowed these maximum dosages:

 

500 mg Gabapentin 3x/day (we couldn't go any higher than 300 mg per dose without her getting dizzy)

125 mg Tramadol 3x/day

50 mg Deramaxx 1x/day (dosage for Deramaxx is different than Rimadyl, I believe the dosage of Rimadyl you have him on is the max maintenance dosage. There are probably higher dosages for short term use (post-surgery) but that's when you get into ulcer territory (I ended up increasing the Deramaxx at the very end b/c at that point the ulcer concern no longer mattered)

 

Oh, did you see improvement from the pamidronate? They say it can take a little while to kick in, but I saw an immediate improvement and the pain relief seemed to improve further over the next 5 days or so.