Doolin Update 2

[Guest zombrie]

It's been almost 4 months since Doolin's tummy issues began. There really hasn't been any changes. He still has the big D, the occasional bloody stool and the occasional grumbly tummy in the morning.

The specialist put him on Sulfasalazine a few days ago. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with this medication. The vet was only worried about the possibility of him getting irreversible dry eyes. Since he has been on it, I feel like he hasn't been feeling well and is very gassy. His stool has had no change and he isn't as active as he normally is. This evening he was going down the stairs and he yelped and then laid down when he got to the bottom. I let him outside and he just laid down, tried to eat grass and threw up. Now he is laying in his bed with that "sick" look on his face and a grumbly stomach - he never gets grumbly stomachs at night, it's always in the morning.

I should also note he has lost 3 pounds since his last vet visit. I am feeding him how the specialist told me to feed him, he gets ground lamb or bison with rice and a little bit of pumpkin (+Flagyl). Awhile ago I tried to give him a special kibble the vet told us to get and it turned the big D into bloody water.

Needless to say we are all feeling very discouraged I will call the specialist in the morning. Am I not giving the meds enough time to work? I think it's making him worse. I just want him to feel better...

[greytpups]

Brie, no advice, just hope he gets better soon.

[Rickiesmom]

Persistent problems like this are so discouraging. Hugs to both of you - hope the vet can come up with a better answer for you.

 

 

[Guest happygrey]

Don't know if it would help but my husband takes this med daily for ulcerative colitis. When he first starting taking it (nearly 30 years ago, I think) it did take a while to get the dosage correct.

 

Also I don't know if it's the same in dogs, but in people it can increase sun sensitivity.

[Trihounds]

Have you really isolated the protein source to single protein only? Ie: just meat and nothing else. If so, did that have any effect? Trying to find the source of the issue can be discouraging as you have to give each element some time to adjust befor you can conclude impact.

 

Ours had soft stool on about 7 different kibbles and we never found the sour e of the issue. We tried raw and all the problems went away. Not suggesting you should do that now (maybe you already tried?) without vet or nutitioninst consult first.

 

Hopefully there is an answer out there for Doolin. Good luck and don't give up!

[KF_in_Georgia]

Brie, has your vet considered Pythiosis? http://www.pythiosis.com/

 

I don't know anything about the disease. I just know I bookmarked it a while back as an "ooo, scary" dog problem since my Sam sometimes has gastrointestinal issues.

[Burpdog]

Has he been wormed? Any stomach meds?

[Guest Stripeyfan]

So sorry Doolin's still having problems – it sounds exactly like what we went through last year.

 

Have you tried a home-cooked diet yet? If I remember rightly, Doolin was found to have hookworms – which we think is what caused Kelly's IBD – and based on our experience, I would still be looking at the food as the main culprit for any ongoing problems. When Kelly wasn't getting any better, I kept asking our old vet if we could keep him on chicken and rice as that was the only food that produced solid poops. He said it wasn't possible and put him on a prescription diet, which made him so sick we ended up changing vets and he had to go on pred.

 

Our vet now is pretty certain he doesn't have a problem with a specific carb or protein – the prescription food was chicken and rice which as I've said, he is fine with with if I cook it for him. He has also, since first getting sick, eaten rats and mice he's caught in the garden (yuck!!), bread rolls and french fries he's found on the pavement before I saw them and various other nasties... and had no problems.

 

Rather, she thinks it's the by-products that are in ALL dog food, no matter how limited the ingredients, that he can't handle because of the damage to his GI tract from the worms. These by-products are usually listed as 'digest' here in the UK and even the 'sensitive' diets contain them. Digest is basically ground up feathers, claws, beaks, connective tissue etc. Kelly has the same reaction to doggy toothpaste which also contains this ingredient.

 

I would also cut out the pumpkin as fibre can actually exacerbate GI problems if the problem is because of worm damage (again, difficult to digest). FWIW, Kelly had a bad reaction to dog food no matter what meds he was on, but now he's on his home-cooked diet he only needs a very low maintenance dose of antibiotics to keep him stable.

 

Really hope you can find an answer to Doolin's problems and that he feels better soon.

[phall]

Brie,

 

I'm so sorry that you still don't have the solution for Doolin. I know how frustrating and discouraging it can be. Please let me know what you hear from the vet today.

 

Pat

[Charlies_Dad]

Brie,

 

I am in agreement with BrucieDad and Stripeyfan, either a home cooked meal or raw? I cannot recall in your previous thread whether you have tried these or not for a period of time. I know stomach problems can be very frustrating as it's a process of trial and error and takes time. Our pups are all on home cooked meals and have never had kibble so I cannot contribute from the kibble side of things. I hope you are able to get to the bottom of this for both you and Doolin.

[ZoomDoggy]

Has he been wormed? ...

 

My thoughts too... I'm sorry if I missed any previous threads that might have addressed this. But I have had false negative stool tests before when in fact it turned out that my dog had hookworms. Took months of trying different things and retesting the stool more than once to finally realize Alimony had hooks. What caught my attention in particular about your description of Doolin's symptoms is the morning tummy growling. Breakfast was always the worst time for Ali when she had hooks. Very squeaky/rumbly tummy. I've heard that's common. The persistent diarrhea and occasional blood... also sounds very similar to my experience.

 

So if you haven't already, re-test the stool. Even if you already did recently.

 

[Guest ravenchilde]

So sorry to hear about Doolin, Brie.

 

I agree with some of the other posts re: home cooked diet and raw diet. My girl Miley had chronic diarrhea and we could not find a kibble that worked - seemed like anything we tried just made things worse. However, we went to bison raw diet (just meat/organs/bones) and her problems resolved almost immediately. We've been able to wean her off metronidazole (weaned down over a month) and things are still pretty darn good. We also cook oats and sweet potatoes for her to add fiber.

 

Also, have you dewormed Doolin lately? Miley is getting dewormed every two weeks because she has such a heavy hookworm infestation and those jokers are incredibly difficult to get rid of. She's also had tons of negative stool samples in between positive ones, so deworming, even if there is no evidence worms are there, might be a good idea?

 

Anyways, hugs for you Brie and licks to your Doolin. We'll be thinking about you!

[SIGreyLady]

No advice Brie - just hoping Doolin will be feeling better soon. :hope

[Guest zombrie]

Thanks for the responses everyone! For those who don't know - Doolin did/does? have hookworms, he has been dewormed twice and probably will be again. I am waiting for the specialist to call back

Last time I talked to the specialist I suggested trying a raw diet because I had heard good things and she said absolutely not. She was very against the idea.

For the homecooked meals, what do you make for them? I feel like he isn't getting what he needs. I don't like that he is losing weight, I wouldn't mind if he at least maintained his weight. Like I said before, he is getting ground lamb or bison (whichever they have at the store) rice as well as fiber one cereal, and before we go to bed at night we give him potato. We want fiber in his diet because the miracle medicine for Doolin, as gross as it is, is horse manure. After he eats horse poo he always has PERFECT poops. We figured he needed the fiber, since that's pretty much all horses eat.

 

Kelly had a bad reaction to dog food no matter what meds he was on, but now he's on his home-cooked diet he only needs a very low maintenance dose of antibiotics to keep him stable.

 

 

This is what happens to Doolin, no matter what kibble we try he always has a horrible reaction, he just can't handle it. What do you cook for him? Doolin has not been on antibiotics - is that something I should suggest to the vet?

[Rickiesmom]

When Jaynie was sick the internal med specialist was also dead set against raw. He said there was too much bacteria for a compromised system, and that may be Doolin's vet's reasoning as well.

 

I know there are strong convictions on both sides of this question, but I decided to go with his recommendation.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Last time I talked to the specialist I suggested trying a raw diet because I had heard good things and she said absolutely not. She was very against the idea.

Well the first vet we went to was absolutely DEAD set against Kelly staying on a home-cooked diet – not balanced, not nutritious etc. He wouldn't hear of it and INSISTED we try a prescription food. It was a disaster. Had we not changed vets, and got one who said 'if that's what works, then do it,' and told us which supplements to give him so it WAS balanced, I truly believe we wouldn't have a dog now. He looks better than he ever did on kibble (even when he could tolerate it) - shiny coat, firm poop, and our vet has agreed that if he has to stay on it for life, then so be it. If dog food doesn't agree with Doolin, it will do him far more harm than a home-cooked or raw diet would. IBD is a serious and damaging condition if it can't be brought under control.

 

However, I do agree with the bacteria in raw issue, which is why we didn't try it for Kelly – Doolin's gut flora will undoubtedly be compromised as a result of his illness, and the worms will have caused damage, so it may be better to try home-cooking first.

 

Kelly had a bad reaction to dog food no matter what meds he was on, but now he's on his home-cooked diet he only needs a very low maintenance dose of antibiotics to keep him stable.

 

This is what happens to Doolin, no matter what kibble we try he always has a horrible reaction, he just can't handle it. What do you cook for him? Doolin has not been on antibiotics - is that something I should suggest to the vet?

As far as I know flagyl and sulfa are antibiotics (flagyl is metronidazole I think). Kelly is on oxytetracycline but I think that is just because it's the treatment of choice here in the UK for his condition. He started off at 1500mg/day (split into 3 doses) as the vet originally thought he had SIBO. Now he is on 500mg/day, not because he has an infection but because it keeps his GI inflammation at bay (ABs can also have an anti-inflammatory effect – there's a greyt article about the effects of another AB, tylosin, on diarrhea in dogs here).

 

For Kelly, we cook plain white rice (not brown, as he can't handle too much fibre) and boiled chicken breast. You'd need to feed slightly more than you would for a dog on kibble, and I boil the rice until it's very soft and has almost absorbed all the water, which I don't drain off as rice starch can have a soothing effect on the gut. He also gets fed 3 times a day as it can be easier for an IBD dog to digest smaller meals. If Doolin can't handle rice then there's alternative carbs such as pasta, potatoes etc. And you can try white fish or ground beef instead of chicken.

 

Apologies for the italics but I lost some quote tags when I multiquoted and couldn't work out how to get them back!

 

ETA: it could well be the bacteria in the horse poop that's firming him up, not the fibre. Maybe try a probiotic? Kelly gets one in with his vitamins, in the meal he doesn't have ABs with.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Stripeyfan

[Remolacha]

Fletcher is another one who can't handle processed dog food. His IBD may be from worm damage also, at least in part. We do raw, but if you don't want to go that route, there are people here who have home cooked for their dogs, Stripeyfan and Batmom come to mind, I am sure there are others

 

Have you tried beet pulp for fiber? Since he does so well on horse maure ! I believe you can get it at feed stores. Just be careful, only feed a small amount in the beginning, it really expands!

[Rickiesmom]

For anyone who hasn't seen this old chestnut

 

Beet Pulp - A Cautionary Tale

[fionasmom]

Fiona had hhok worms when I first adopted her and it took several rounds of treatment to clear tehm up. Even after the worms were gone she had symptoms similar to what you describe including infected anal glands due to contant diarhea.

 

I could never find a food she dis well on. The vet finally diagnosed IBD due tot eh hooks and put her on a prescrition diet for about a month. That did the trick for her.

[Guest NYChound]

Hey Brie - so nice for our cowdoggies to meet over the weekend. Doolin is such a great dog. Small piece of info, for what it's worth: When we got Blaze, he had awful diarrhea for the first month and a half. Vet put him on flagyl (that is an antibiotic, sounds like Doolin is already taking it) but the real fix came from another greyhound owner who told us to stop feeding Blaze rice because the little grains can sometimes irritate an already-irritated stomach. We cut out the rice and within a few days the diarrhea was gone.

 

I think Doolin's case is more complicated, but just a thought. Don't know if soft foods would be easier on his stomach? Boiled hamburger and mashed potatoes, for instance (not with sour cream or butter of course! LOL) Or canned dog food, but you've probably already tried that. Also, plain or vanilla low fat yogurt is worth a try - has protein and some calories for him.

 

Hang in there, there's got to be a solution for Doolin.

-Julia

[tbhounds]

Brie, if you choose to home cook I would suggest you contact Dr Remillard at Angell Memorial. She will access recent history, blood work etc and design a diet for your hound. She does phone consults. Home cooking is a lot of work but, the rewards are quite worth it.

[gryhndsr4us]

My Bridge girl Gypsy was on Sulfasalzine. She did very well on it. We also fed her Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. She could not have lamb, bison, vinsion or poultry. She did best on fish and no grains. She also needed a bedtime snack or she would get sick around 3 or 4 in the morning.

Hope you find what works for your pup. Took us a few months to come up with what worked best for Gypsy.

[Guest zombrie]

I guess I am going to take him off of the Sulfasalzine. He vomited this afternoon. He almost never throws up and he has the past two days. I think he is having a reaction to it. Unfortunately I missed the vet's call so I have to wait to call her tomorrow morning before she leaves for a couple weeks.

 

Brie, if you choose to home cook I would suggest you contact Dr Remillard at Angell Memorial. She will access recent history, blood work etc and design a diet for your hound. She does phone consults. Home cooking is a lot of work but, the rewards are quite worth it.

 

I will look into it, thank you. I just want him to feel better, no matter what it takes.

[Guest zombrie]

Hey Brie - so nice for our cowdoggies to meet over the weekend. Doolin is such a great dog. Small piece of info, for what it's worth: When we got Blaze, he had awful diarrhea for the first month and a half. Vet put him on flagyl (that is an antibiotic, sounds like Doolin is already taking it) but the real fix came from another greyhound owner who told us to stop feeding Blaze rice because the little grains can sometimes irritate an already-irritated stomach. We cut out the rice and within a few days the diarrhea was gone.

 

I think Doolin's case is more complicated, but just a thought. Don't know if soft foods would be easier on his stomach? Boiled hamburger and mashed potatoes, for instance (not with sour cream or butter of course! LOL) Or canned dog food, but you've probably already tried that. Also, plain or vanilla low fat yogurt is worth a try - has protein and some calories for him.

 

Hang in there, there's got to be a solution for Doolin.

-Julia

 

Hi Julia,

It was great seeing Blaze! Those two were a good match

The thought crossed our minds about the rice so we phased it out. We ended up putting the rice back into his diet because there was no change. Thanks for the thought!

[Batmom]

Ditto the questions about worming.

 

Assume he's had some recent x-rays/ultrasound?

 

Re whether he's getting enough: How is his weight? FWIW, my little 55-lb Zema was on a homecooked, 99% meat diet for several years. She needed @ 1.2 - 1.5 lbs precooked weight (medium fatty ground beef) per day to maintain her weight.