Continuing Uti, Switch To Baytril

[greyhead]

Maybe I should be posting in Soap Box instead cuz I'm feeling pretty frustrated. But in case someone may find this shared experience useful, or if anyone has advice or experience to share, I'll post here.

 

Shane has had an E. coli UTI for...months and months! His vet has kept wanting to call him incontinent, and said she was sure he didn't have a UTI. I finally requested a C&S when he refused food and became hard to rouse!

 

He has had four rounds of Amoxi-Clav-Pot, with recheck cultures after rounds 2 and 4. When I reported that he was still having leakage problems at the end of round 4, I left him with the vet for a little while, and my husband went to pick him up about a half-hour later. The vet handed him some literature and a letter asking for observations of his urinary habits, and it basically laid out the treatment options for incontinence. (And at the time, the vet told my husband, "We've done it her way, and now we're going to do it my way." This didn't tick me off at the time, but it does now.)

 

So I waited about 8 days after the medicine was finished and took in a new urine sample; the culture results came back positive again! Last night the vet called with this info and said that, amazingly, the sensitivity test showed the germs are still susceptible to the same antibiotic (though at a really really high dose at this point)! Well, we decided to switch. There was a pretty long list of possible antibiotics, and I asked for Baytril. We agreed to give him two weeks' worth and, if it's working well, give him a third week. Oh, and I was gracious in victory if one wants to call it that, but I am not happy. This vet has wanted to call this dog incontinent since he was 5 years old. But antibiotics cleared it up that time too. And that's one of the points I want to make here: his leakage completely stopped after the second round of antibiotic, stopped for two weeks. Then it started up again and continued unabated through rounds 3 and 4. So I'm guessing that it was just too entrenched when treatment started, so that even 20 days of antibiotic wasn't enough. We should have kept it up for a longer *continuous* time just for good measure.

 

I asked if this was some weird strain of E. coli that's hard to vanquish, but the vet didn't think so. Jeez. So for anyone who is curious, yes, apparently this kind of thing can last this long!!! Has anyone else here had such an experience, though?! And if you don't have anything else to say, please just give me an encouraging word, cuz I am so tired out by this.

Edited February 24, 2011 by greyhead

[Batmom]

Yep. BTDTGTM (been there, done that, got the medal).

 

One thing to keep in mind is, what works on the C&S plate (petri dish), may or may not work in the dog. You need the C&S, but if the first drug indicated doesn't work, move on to another one.

 

Gidget's UTI was a different organism. First drug knocked it back but didn't kill it. 2nd drug -- 4-6 weeks worth -- did the trick.

 

What we do if we haven't had success with normal UTI treatment is:

 

- Put dog on antibiotic of choice (presumably one indicated by the C&S).

- Check urine 5 days into course of antibiotics. Just basic urinalysis -- do the strip, look at the sediment. Should be clean or very nearly so. Symptoms should be gone.

- Continue antibiotics for at least 3 weeks total.

- Check urine 1-2 days after antibiotics are finished. Again, just basic urinalysis. If not clean, tell the culture lab what didn't work and reculture at this point.

- Check urine 7-10 days after antibiotics are finished. Again, just basic urinalysis. If not clean, tell the culture lab ... ditto ditto.

 

If we've still got critters 5 days in, probably want to swap for a different antibiotic from among those indicated by the C&S.

[Guest FiveHounds]

Yep. BTDTGTM (been there, done that, got the medal).

 

One thing to keep in mind is, what works on the C&S plate (petri dish), may or may not work in the dog. You need the C&S, but if the first drug indicated doesn't work, move on to another one.

 

Gidget's UTI was a different organism. First drug knocked it back but didn't kill it. 2nd drug -- 4-6 weeks worth -- did the trick.

 

What we do if we haven't had success with normal UTI treatment is:

 

- Put dog on antibiotic of choice (presumably one indicated by the C&S).

- Check urine 5 days into course of antibiotics. Just basic urinalysis -- do the strip, look at the sediment. Should be clean or very nearly so. Symptoms should be gone.

- Continue antibiotics for at least 3 weeks total.

- Check urine 1-2 days after antibiotics are finished. Again, just basic urinalysis. If not clean, tell the culture lab what didn't work and reculture at this point.

- Check urine 7-10 days after antibiotics are finished. Again, just basic urinalysis. If not clean, tell the culture lab ... ditto ditto.

 

If we've still got critters 5 days in, probably want to swap for a different antibiotic from among those indicated by the C&S.

 

I cannot comment on the UTI's or E.Coli, but if it were my dog and I'd been going through this for a long time, I would be searching for a second opinion and possibly finding a new vet! Good luck to you. I hope your dog will bounce back quickly.

[dbullwinkel]

Missy had an e-coli uti for AGES....I feel your pain. She ended up on abx for months ( i think it was about 4). I can't remember the name of the meds at the moment..it is a medicine used for "human" UTIs. given based upon the urine culture. Good luck!

[greyhead]

I cannot comment on the UTI's or E.Coli, but if it were my dog and I'd been going through this for a long time, I would be searching for a second opinion and possibly finding a new vet! Good luck to you. I hope your dog will bounce back quickly.

Welcome to GT! I'm very honored to be getting your first post! The new vet thing has crossed my mind.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Been there, done that and didn't get a medal or a freakin T shirt

 

Sometimes you need to combine antibiotics. Since he has been battling this for so long it could take an extended period (6-8 weeks) to clear it.

 

I would think about going to another vet. I have found some, even after they realize they were wrong, tend not to be as open minded as a fresh set of eyes would be. They may have to look outside the box to find the cause.

 

This is definitely Soap Box material. And I understand where you are coming from. My father (85 yrs old) gets debilitating UTIs. They hit him so fast and he can't even get from his chair to the bathroom. His Dr is doing nothing to find out why they keep reoccurring. He now is throwing one of the MRSA big gun antibiotics at my Dad. My Dad never questions a Dr. Frustrating!

[JenniferS]

My dog battled an ecoli UTI for several months earlier this year. Many urinalysis', urine cultures and 4 separate anti-biotics later and it was finally clear. It was so frustrating, not to mention expensive and the next step would've been an ultrasound to look for something worse, so I'm so glad it didn't come to that. Hang in there, I know exactly how you feel!

[kudzu]

Cat-UTI 1= 4 weeks. UTI 2 = 6 weeks. Praying there will be no 3.

[greysmom]

Definitely another vet, if that is an option. I hate any kind of professional that talks to me like I'm stupid. Especially in this age of internet research.

 

Make sure you stay on the antibiotics long enough. Batom has given you a good list to follow. Good luck.

[GeorgeofNE]

Oh, I think I can top all of you, COMBINED for difficult bugs!

 

The first "cure" for George's mystery peeing was 12 weeks of Baytril. That gave me two years of dryness.

 

In August, the peeing started again. By now we have a new home (with brand new carpet I couldn't really afford in the first place and NEVER would have installed if I thought the "cure" was temporary) and a new vet who is not all that Greyhound savvy. Baytril helped this time, but didn't completely stop the accidents.. After that, the vet pretty much insisted on more tests and an ultrasound. I agreed, but told her if they all showed, nothing, which I promised her they would, I wanted to try a different drug for longer. She sort of agreed.

 

Ultrasound, more blood, more urine--all totally normal. I was relieved about the ultrasound, cause that was the one test I didn't do the first time.

 

Happen to have made friends on Facebook with a vet who used to be the track vet at a now-closed track. She tossed out "Have you treated him with Doxy for mycoplasma?" and I said, "Huh?" Did some research--and while there isn't much written about mycoplasma, I literally wept when I read the words, "Can be virtually impossible to detect with standard tests."

 

Approached my vet about it. To her credit, she also did some research. Mind you, after the ultrasound, she said, "We now have to consider husbandry issues" (which I took to mean I wasn't taking him out enough?). She said she didn't think it was likely, but admitted she'd never heard of this particular bug. I also contacted another vet who I consider a greyhound expert. He concurred that it was absolutely possible, and that treating with Doxy was safe, so why not?

 

Told my vet, "I appreciate your help thusfar, but he's my dog, it's my money, and I want to try this before I surrender and call him "incontinent." She said she'd note her objection in the file, and wrote me an 8 week scrip for Doxy. 8 weeks went by, and he went from peeing 4 times a week to once a week (approx. numbers--I do have the actual records!). The two greyhound vets I consulted said, "keep going." Got another scrip for 8 more weeks. Accidents reduced to about one every other week by week 9 or 10. By week 11 or 12, he'd made it almost 2 weeks dry.

 

After the 16 weeeks, he appears to have stopped peeing in the house all together. My vet pals said they'd keep going one more month just to be sure, so that's where we are now. Total: 20 weeks. That's after 8 weeks of Baytril.

 

Here is how it was explained to me: Doxy doesn't KILL mycoplasma, it renders the bacteria unable to reproduce. You have to give the meds enough time for the dog to shed all the bacteria (or whatever the correct term would be for fight them off!) It seems as though the 12 weeks of Baytril 2 years ago sort of put them in a state of ALMOST gone. And it took 2 years for enough of them to grow back to start the irritation. Mycoplasma live off the host--and can inhabit pretty much any part of the host. I believe in George's case they're in his kidneys.

 

It sounds INSANE, I know. I cannot tell you how many totally clean urine tests I've paid for. And yet CLEARLY antibiotics change/stop his peeing.

 

George is calmer now, sleeps better, and isn't hysterical when I get home. He's a NORMAL dog!

 

I don't know if this is all going to end in a PERMANENT cure or not, but I thought I should share the curious case of George.

Edited February 24, 2011 by GeorgeofNE

[greyhead]

WOW Susan! I'm going to look that up right now! I'm guessing mycoplasma is one of those things that vets consider "rare"!

 

ETA: Susan, was a culture done to find the mycoplasma? I think it might require a special medium to grow it, so it might not show up on a regular culture? Or did you just go by the recommendation of the greyhound vets and treat it with doxy? I'm so glad you shared this possibility, by the way!!! After one dose of Baytril (given once at night), Shane's belly band was hardly used. But this morning, after his second dose last night, it was pretty full.

 

My first quick Internet researches show that mycoplasma can also be in the lung and joints and other places. It mimics arthritis. Did George have any problems with limping or slowness?

Edited February 24, 2011 by greyhead

[GeorgeofNE]

WOW Susan! I'm going to look that up right now! I'm guessing mycoplasma is one of those things that vets consider "rare"!

 

ETA: Susan, was a culture done to find the mycoplasma? I think it might require a special medium to grow it, so it might not show up on a regular culture? Or did you just go by the recommendation of the greyhound vets and treat it with doxy? I'm so glad you shared this possibility, by the way!!! After one dose of Baytril (given once at night), Shane's belly band was hardly used. But this morning, after his second dose last night, it was pretty full.

 

My first quick Internet researches show that mycoplasma can also be in the lung and joints and other places. It mimics arthritis. Did George have any problems with limping or slowness?

 

It CAN mimic a lot of things, and I believe it can live almost anywhere. It has no cell wall, which makes it so hard to find.

 

One of the vets said there are false negatives too often for him to consider testing (special test--don't even know what) all that valuable since the treatment is relatively cheap.

 

It's hard to say if it's rare, or simply not often considered, or most vets don't know about it.

[DesiRayMom]

I am finding this all frightfully interesting. DesiRay has been with me one year; no accidents until this past winter.

I tried to call it midwinter blues, it was dark by the time I got home, & I thought he was just thinking I'd forgotten

about him & gave it up.

 

However, daylight coming back, still accidents. Have given up & now take him to work with me every day. Tried the belly

band, but he pees a gallon (he's really not drinking excessively...a quart or a little more/day) & there is no bellyband

I have found that can hold that.

 

He also has nail issues & last summer he had a round of Doxy (4 weeks), but obviously that wasn't enough, if this mycoplasma

might be the culprit.

 

How is it transmitted?

 

Tomorrow I think I'm going to talk to our youngest vet at the clinic, who is curious as a cat & I'm sure will help me

research this little booger.

 

Thanks for the info!!!

[Guest Kathy3]

Have you tired to put poise pads in the belly band, I use 3 in my boys belly band and I buy the Walmart brand which is a little cheaper. He also is having UTI's that will not go away, they started in November. I have had him for a little over 9 years and he had never had a UTI before this. He will be going back to the vet on Monday to decide what we are going to do next. He was on Amoxicillion 3 times that last time for a month then we switch to Baytril for 10 days, the last dose will be on Sunday. He had an xray and an ultra sound a week ago and it came out fine except for his Kidneys which which "were not horrible but not good". He will be 13 in April so I am not sure it that is due to his age or what. I will say with the Bayrtil he is only getting me up 1 or 2 times a night which is much better then before. I am wondering if the Baytril is hard on his kidneys so I will have to talk to her about that.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Kathy3

[Batmom]

You really want to culture if you have a long-term problem or repeat incidents. Different bacteria in the same genus (and even species) can be susceptible -- and NOT susceptible -- to different meds. Not all mycoplasma are susceptible to doxycycline, for example.

 

Do the culture, and do the follow-through with retesting at each stage.

[Guest Kathy3]

I had a culture done where they grew the bacteria in the urine and it was E Coli. I am now reading in different places that antibiotic are not recommended for dogs with kidney problems. Is there a medication that is better for dogs that have kidney problems. I am concerned now that with all the antibiotic that he has taken and may need to take this will cause further damage to his kidneys.

 

Side Effects of Antibiotics for UTI

Antibiotics might create nausea, diarrhea and lethargy. The dog will be inactive. Dogs with a sensitive stomach might not tolerate the antibiotics, and in this case alternative treatment must be explored.

 

Antibiotics are not recommended for dogs with kidney problems; these may lead to kidney failure.

 

A treatment with antibiotics may also result in secondary infections, such as yeast infections.

 

Homeopathic recipes may be a side-effect-free alternative to antibiotics for UTI.

 

http://www.vetinfo.com/antibiotics-canine-uti.html

[Guest mcsheltie]

I had a culture done where they grew the bacteria in the urine and it was E Coli. I am now reading in different places that antibiotic are not recommended for dogs with kidney problems. Is there a medication that is better for dogs that have kidney problems. I am concerned now that with all the antibiotic that he has taken and may need to take this will cause further damage to his kidneys.

 

Side Effects of Antibiotics for UTI

Antibiotics might create nausea, diarrhea and lethargy. The dog will be inactive. Dogs with a sensitive stomach might not tolerate the antibiotics, and in this case alternative treatment must be explored.

 

Antibiotics are not recommended for dogs with kidney problems; these may lead to kidney failure.

 

A treatment with antibiotics may also result in secondary infections, such as yeast infections.

 

Homeopathic recipes may be a side-effect-free alternative to antibiotics for UTI.

 

http://www.vetinfo.com/antibiotics-canine-uti.html

You can't leave a UTI untreated because you fear kidney damage. That can cause kidney damage. When Boomer had the hard time kicking a UTI his kidney numbers were very high. It reoccurred three times. Three weeks of Baytril kicked it. His kidney values have returned to normal.

 

10 days may not be enough. If you are still seeing symptoms you should call your vet tomorrow and discuss it. He may need to extend treatment. If you are worried about the kidney values have a renal diagnostic pulled on Monday and see if the numbers have changed. You may need to make diet modifications, but you have to get the UTI under control.

[4My2Greys]

I had a culture done where they grew the bacteria in the urine and it was E Coli. I am now reading in different places that antibiotic are not recommended for dogs with kidney problems. Is there a medication that is better for dogs that have kidney problems. I am concerned now that with all the antibiotic that he has taken and may need to take this will cause further damage to his kidneys.

 

Side Effects of Antibiotics for UTI

Antibiotics might create nausea, diarrhea and lethargy. The dog will be inactive. Dogs with a sensitive stomach might not tolerate the antibiotics, and in this case alternative treatment must be explored.

 

Antibiotics are not recommended for dogs with kidney problems; these may lead to kidney failure.

 

A treatment with antibiotics may also result in secondary infections, such as yeast infections.

 

Homeopathic recipes may be a side-effect-free alternative to antibiotics for UTI.

 

http://www.vetinfo.com/antibiotics-canine-uti.html

 

I for one think antibiotics are way over-prescribed. That is why there are so many antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria developing.

You might be interested in reading about the use of D-Mannose sugar to prevent and eliminate UTIs.

 

http://www.healingtherapies.info/d-mannose.htm

[JJNg]

http://www.vetinfo.com/antibiotics-canine-uti.html

Not sure what other sources you've read, but this particular article doesn't appear to have been written by a medical professional. There is no author identified, and no references listed. It also contains inaccurate medical information as well as grammatical errors. While the internet can be a great source of information, you also have to be careful about all the misinformation out there.

 

There may be situations where UTIs can be managed without antibiotics, but that isn't the standard of care, at least with mainstream medicine. A simple bladder infection that is not treated appropriately and spreads to the kidneys will be much more likely to cause kidney damage than appropriate antibiotics. With the current level of understanding, I feel that some of the alternatives (d-mannose, cranberry products, etc) do have a place, but more in the area of prevention and supplemental treatment, not as a replacement for antibiotics. This may change with time, but at this point, I wouldn't be comfortable not treating with antibiotics when there's been a bacteria identified on culture.

 

While there are certain antibiotics that can potentially cause kidney damage, this is not true of all antibiotics, especially not the ones typically used to treat bladder infections. Dogs with kidney disease are predisposed to bladder infections due to their dilute urine, and these cases are treated with antibiotics all the time without worsening the kidney disease. I would even say that a dog with kidney disease who gets a UTI is a worse candidate for trying alternative therapies and avoiding antibiotics. Their natural defenses against UTIs are already lower than normal, and if it progresses to a kidney infection, the results could be devastating.

[Batmom]

If the dog has a UTI, you must give antibiotics. That's the only way to get rid of it. Untreated, as others noted, it can spread from the bladder to the kidneys and kill your dog.

 

Your vet can select the most kidney-friendly of the antibiotics that the infection is shown to be sensitive to. There are only a handful that are truly kidney-UNfriendly, and I've never heard of any of them being used for a UTI.

 

Some people feel that homeopathic remedies help bolster the wellbeing of the dog. They don't cure disease.

 

D-Mannose isn't going to cure a UTI. Some bacteria love it and eat it like candy.

[Guest Kathy3]

we do need to get rid of the UTI but I was wondering if all the antibiotic so far that he has taken since November has somehow damaged his kidneys. I will talk to her on Monday and hopefully there is something that he can take that will be a little kinder on his kidneys.

[Batmom]

Has he had a culture?

[greyhead]

we do need to get rid of the UTI but I was wondering if all the antibiotic so far that he has taken since November has somehow damaged his kidneys. I will talk to her on Monday and hopefully there is something that he can take that will be a little kinder on his kidneys.

Good luck to you, Kathy, and let us know how Monday goes. One wonders what's up with this intransigent E. coli, which is what we're fighting too -- as far as our culture showed. I think you can supplement your boy with rehmannia to strengthen his kidneys. Well, I know you can, and my vet loves the stuff for that purpose, but I don't know if it's something that would also somehow be enjoyed by the bacteria, so I don't know about giving it at the same time as treating a UTI.

 

Has he had a culture?

I think she said he did have a culture.

 

I wanted to ask, though, about this business of examining the urine sample. Every time my vet looks at the urine and does urinalysis, the urine looks great -- clear, good color, no sediment, etc. And that's the reason she was so sure last summer that he didn't have a UTI, so we didn't culture it then. So in this case culturing has been consistenly the only thing that shows there's a problem. So apparently you can have a UTI where the urine looks so good upon inspection that it fools people?

[Batmom]

Ah. If he had a culture, I'd ask the vet if the lab gave more than one antibiotic as working for it (usually they do list more than one). If not, might need to reculture . If so, I'd try one of the other ones.

 

Yes, you can have a normal strip and normal-looking sediment and still have an infection.

 

For the strip -- the strips look for white cell byproducts and bacterial byproducts that are specific only to certain bacteria. The dog might have a different bacteria, and might not be excreting a lot of white cells for several reasons.

 

For both the strip and the microscopic exam -- Especially if the dog has been drinking a lot (and peeing a lot), you might not see a lot of white cells, red blood cells, or bacteria. First-of-the-morning urine increases your chances of spotting something ooky. Still no guarantee, tho. Hence culturing being a good idea if there's an ongoing or repeat problem. You can fool a petri dish (culture plate) too, but it's harder .

[greyhead]

Oh, I think I can top all of you, COMBINED for difficult bugs!

 

The first "cure" for George's mystery peeing was 12 weeks of Baytril. That gave me two years of dryness.

 

In August, the peeing started again. By now we have a new home (with brand new carpet I couldn't really afford in the first place and NEVER would have installed if I thought the "cure" was temporary) and a new vet who is not all that Greyhound savvy. Baytril helped this time, but didn't completely stop the accidents.. After that, the vet pretty much insisted on more tests and an ultrasound. I agreed, but told her if they all showed, nothing, which I promised her they would, I wanted to try a different drug for longer. She sort of agreed.

 

Ultrasound, more blood, more urine--all totally normal. I was relieved about the ultrasound, cause that was the one test I didn't do the first time.

 

Happen to have made friends on Facebook with a vet who used to be the track vet at a now-closed track. She tossed out "Have you treated him with Doxy for mycoplasma?" and I said, "Huh?" Did some research--and while there isn't much written about mycoplasma, I literally wept when I read the words, "Can be virtually impossible to detect with standard tests."

 

Approached my vet about it. To her credit, she also did some research. Mind you, after the ultrasound, she said, "We now have to consider husbandry issues" (which I took to mean I wasn't taking him out enough?). She said she didn't think it was likely, but admitted she'd never heard of this particular bug. I also contacted another vet who I consider a greyhound expert. He concurred that it was absolutely possible, and that treating with Doxy was safe, so why not?

 

Told my vet, "I appreciate your help thusfar, but he's my dog, it's my money, and I want to try this before I surrender and call him "incontinent." She said she'd note her objection in the file, and wrote me an 8 week scrip for Doxy. 8 weeks went by, and he went from peeing 4 times a week to once a week (approx. numbers--I do have the actual records!). The two greyhound vets I consulted said, "keep going." Got another scrip for 8 more weeks. Accidents reduced to about one every other week by week 9 or 10. By week 11 or 12, he'd made it almost 2 weeks dry.

 

After the 16 weeeks, he appears to have stopped peeing in the house all together. My vet pals said they'd keep going one more month just to be sure, so that's where we are now. Total: 20 weeks. That's after 8 weeks of Baytril.

 

Here is how it was explained to me: Doxy doesn't KILL mycoplasma, it renders the bacteria unable to reproduce. You have to give the meds enough time for the dog to shed all the bacteria (or whatever the correct term would be for fight them off!) It seems as though the 12 weeks of Baytril 2 years ago sort of put them in a state of ALMOST gone. And it took 2 years for enough of them to grow back to start the irritation. Mycoplasma live off the host--and can inhabit pretty much any part of the host. I believe in George's case they're in his kidneys.

 

It sounds INSANE, I know. I cannot tell you how many totally clean urine tests I've paid for. And yet CLEARLY antibiotics change/stop his peeing.

 

George is calmer now, sleeps better, and isn't hysterical when I get home. He's a NORMAL dog!

 

I don't know if this is all going to end in a PERMANENT cure or not, but I thought I should share the curious case of George.

Susan, dearest, I have SO many questions for you that I can only hope I won't be imposing too much in asking them! First off, I don't spend a lot of time on Facebook, but I'd be willing to reform my neglectful ways if I could find ex-track vets or otherwise greyhound specialists on there! How do I find them too?!

 

Second, and more importantly, could you ask your vet friends if one could consider giving Baytril and doxy simultaneously? I don't know if I can stand the idea of 8 weeks of Baytril, only to then start 16 weeks of doxy. Of course, I don't know what I actually will do. The quasi-scientist in me likes to do things stepwise and likes to know things for sure. But the realist in me recognizes that we can't always know everything for sure. And the mom in me just wants to get my boy -- and me -- some relief.

Feel free to PM or email me if I've asked anything too ...too anything! And thank you again and again for all the useful info you've shared already!