Continuing Uti, Switch To Baytril

[Guest mcsheltie]

 

Second, and more importantly, could you ask your vet friends if one could consider giving Baytril and doxy simultaneously?

No need to give both. Mycoplasma is susceptible to Baytril. It has a high cure rate and many vets consider it first treatment of choice.

[GeorgeofNE]

You really want to culture if you have a long-term problem or repeat incidents. Different bacteria in the same genus (and even species) can be susceptible -- and NOT susceptible -- to different meds. Not all mycoplasma are susceptible to doxycycline, for example.

 

Do the culture, and do the follow-through with retesting at each stage.

 

 

What sort of culture do you mean?

 

George's urine has been cultured three times; nothing has ever been found.

 

I don't mean to suggest to ANYONE that I KNOW he has mycoplasma. But I do think it should be noted that while ALL TESTS in three years have been 100% negative for any kind of infection, antibiotics slow down or halt the peeing. Every time. Clearly something is going on.

 

The Doxy was really a last ditch effort based on education guessing by a vet experienced with Greyhounds.

 

Honestly? I don't care WHAT he has. But the Doxy is working, albeit painfully slowly.

 

He's been dry five weeks now. Contrast that to peeing 3-4 times a week--I'll take it!

 

Oh, I think I can top all of you, COMBINED for difficult bugs!

 

The first "cure" for George's mystery peeing was 12 weeks of Baytril. That gave me two years of dryness.

 

In August, the peeing started again. By now we have a new home (with brand new carpet I couldn't really afford in the first place and NEVER would have installed if I thought the "cure" was temporary) and a new vet who is not all that Greyhound savvy. Baytril helped this time, but didn't completely stop the accidents.. After that, the vet pretty much insisted on more tests and an ultrasound. I agreed, but told her if they all showed, nothing, which I promised her they would, I wanted to try a different drug for longer. She sort of agreed.

 

Ultrasound, more blood, more urine--all totally normal. I was relieved about the ultrasound, cause that was the one test I didn't do the first time.

 

Happen to have made friends on Facebook with a vet who used to be the track vet at a now-closed track. She tossed out "Have you treated him with Doxy for mycoplasma?" and I said, "Huh?" Did some research--and while there isn't much written about mycoplasma, I literally wept when I read the words, "Can be virtually impossible to detect with standard tests."

 

Approached my vet about it. To her credit, she also did some research. Mind you, after the ultrasound, she said, "We now have to consider husbandry issues" (which I took to mean I wasn't taking him out enough?). She said she didn't think it was likely, but admitted she'd never heard of this particular bug. I also contacted another vet who I consider a greyhound expert. He concurred that it was absolutely possible, and that treating with Doxy was safe, so why not?

 

Told my vet, "I appreciate your help thusfar, but he's my dog, it's my money, and I want to try this before I surrender and call him "incontinent." She said she'd note her objection in the file, and wrote me an 8 week scrip for Doxy. 8 weeks went by, and he went from peeing 4 times a week to once a week (approx. numbers--I do have the actual records!). The two greyhound vets I consulted said, "keep going." Got another scrip for 8 more weeks. Accidents reduced to about one every other week by week 9 or 10. By week 11 or 12, he'd made it almost 2 weeks dry.

 

After the 16 weeeks, he appears to have stopped peeing in the house all together. My vet pals said they'd keep going one more month just to be sure, so that's where we are now. Total: 20 weeks. That's after 8 weeks of Baytril.

 

Here is how it was explained to me: Doxy doesn't KILL mycoplasma, it renders the bacteria unable to reproduce. You have to give the meds enough time for the dog to shed all the bacteria (or whatever the correct term would be for fight them off!) It seems as though the 12 weeks of Baytril 2 years ago sort of put them in a state of ALMOST gone. And it took 2 years for enough of them to grow back to start the irritation. Mycoplasma live off the host--and can inhabit pretty much any part of the host. I believe in George's case they're in his kidneys.

 

It sounds INSANE, I know. I cannot tell you how many totally clean urine tests I've paid for. And yet CLEARLY antibiotics change/stop his peeing.

 

George is calmer now, sleeps better, and isn't hysterical when I get home. He's a NORMAL dog!

 

I don't know if this is all going to end in a PERMANENT cure or not, but I thought I should share the curious case of George.

Susan, dearest, I have SO many questions for you that I can only hope I won't be imposing too much in asking them! First off, I don't spend a lot of time on Facebook, but I'd be willing to reform my neglectful ways if I could find ex-track vets or otherwise greyhound specialists on there! How do I find them too?!

 

Second, and more importantly, could you ask your vet friends if one could consider giving Baytril and doxy simultaneously? I don't know if I can stand the idea of 8 weeks of Baytril, only to then start 16 weeks of doxy. Of course, I don't know what I actually will do. The quasi-scientist in me likes to do things stepwise and likes to know things for sure. But the realist in me recognizes that we can't always know everything for sure. And the mom in me just wants to get my boy -- and me -- some relief.

Feel free to PM or email me if I've asked anything too ...too anything! And thank you again and again for all the useful info you've shared already!

 

If you want, I will ask the vet if it's OK if I give you her name--

 

The other vet is someone most of us have at least heard of...she says mysteriously...

 

 

Can't just give out their names as they helped me simply as a favor.

 

And I just noticed the serenity prayer in your siggy...

 

 

Drop me a PM. I'll give you my email addy.

 

And I don't think you'd give the drugs together. Clearly the FIRST time, Baytril worked, but it didn't work the second time.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Only just seeing this - sorry to hear Shane's having problems too! We really need to tell our boys to STOP IT with the bowel/bladder stuff don't we??

 

No advice but wanted to send some good thoughts your way... hope Spencer is continuing to feel better too?

[Guest mcsheltie]

Mycoplasma is very hard to culture. They have no cell walls and are fragile. I have been told that the culture needs to be sent to a lab "competent in the recovery" of mycoplasma. So that may explain the fact it hasn't shown itself.

 

I know when you are giving the medication five weeks seems like forever. But in resistant cases 6-8 weeks is actually a normal time frame. Like they say "treat the dog, not the lab work".

[greyhead]

Had to go to a doc myself, and just got home to notice a few drops of blood and a long, narrow smear of it on the bed Shane was on immediately prior. Saw this after he got up when I let him go outside, which he clearly needed to do cuz there were also a couple circles of leakage in evidence on the bed. I find myself not wanting to give the vet yet another thing to consider, especially since I can't prove where it came from. But I just went over both dogs and all their paws and can't find any boo-boos. So I guess I'll mosey on over to the blood-in-urine thread I just noticed and then decide what to do. This vet won't be back in the office until Tuesday. So... Maybe I'll send her an email about it and call her office to tell them it's there.

 

I just don't know.

 

Does this mean the Baytril isn't working?

 

And I just noticed the serenity prayer in your siggy...

 

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me! I think I should say that prayer today! (For the uninitiated, that is the more or less official prayer of AA. Both my parents were alcoholics, bless their souls, so I grew up with that prayer as a philosophy of life!)

 

And in case I haven't mentioned it, a big THANK YOU to each of you who are (is?) helping me try to hold on to some serenity in this situation!

Edited February 25, 2011 by greyhead

[Guest Kathy3]

I took Rebel to the vet today, he has no bacteria and no white blood cells in his urine but is still getting me up 2 to 3 times a night and still have a couple of accidents in his belly band each day. The vet put him on doxy for 2 weeks, will have another urinalysis done in 2 weeks. She also wanted to try a medication for kidney disease but we wanted to try one at a time. I can't remember what the kidney medication was, I am so tired that my memory is not so good right now. I was glad that the urinalysis looked good. I don't know what it was this time but the one before last was 100.

[Guest Kathy3]

"I don't know what it was this time but the one before last was 100."

 

The protien in the urine is kind of high. I do not know what it was today, she said it was still high. That makes better sense. I just had a nap so I am a little clearer.

[greyhead]

I took Rebel to the vet today, he has no bacteria and no white blood cells in his urine but is still getting me up 2 to 3 times a night and still have a couple of accidents in his belly band each day. The vet put him on doxy for 2 weeks, will have another urinalysis done in 2 weeks. She also wanted to try a medication for kidney disease but we wanted to try one at a time. I can't remember what the kidney medication was, I am so tired that my memory is not so good right now. I was glad that the urinalysis looked good. I don't know what it was this time but the one before last was 100.

Is there anyone who could let Rebel out a couple times during the day? (I know, that's a luxury out of reach of most of us.) I'm just thinking that then he could wear the belly band at night instead, and you could get more sleep. Between the problems both my dogs are having lately, I'm tired out just keeping track of all the pills and foods and outs! If I had to keep getting up at night too, I just couldn't cope!

 

At age 13, some lessening of kidney function isn't a total shock. Your vet's descriptions are kind of vague to me; I don't know what "not horrible, not great" means, especially in the context of rebel's age. Protein in the urine would go along with that, up to a point. Any chance you could get a number and a range instead of just "high"?

 

I don't mean to be negativistic or nasty, but the fact is that people, including vets, get stuck on ideas that may be wrong. My vet got stuck on the idea that Shane was incontinent, even as far back as when he was 5. So when the leakage returned last year, at age 7, and with the nice looking urinalysis, she again got fixated on incontinence. I can't help but wonder if your vet is doing the same thing about kidneys. But I could be projecting. Sure hope the doxy does the trick for Rebel. It's not yet clear whether the Baytril will do it for Shane.

Edited March 1, 2011 by greyhead

[Guest MZH]

Just finished reading this, ME. This is another out-of-the-box thought: does Shane have an anal gland issue or does he lick to lick his anus and then his penis? This is an ideal way to tranfser E. coli from the GI tract into the urinary tract and perpetuate the E. coli infection.

 

I hope the urine catches have been via cystocentesis and not free catch. If not, well, that's not good.

 

At this point, anything is worth considering.

[Guest Kathy3]

I let Rebel out on my lunch break and there are some times that he does not have an accident and then I can be gone for 3 hours and he has one. In the evening before bed sometimes he wants me to let him out only an hour after I just let him out. He is now wearing the belly bands all the time with 3 generic poise pads which does a good job of absorbing the urine and keeping it off him. A little less then a month ago he started leaking in his sleep which does not happen all the time and when I would go to let him out he would somtimes drip. At night Rebel lets me know until I get up that he wants to go out so the belly band is for the leaking which he does not do all the time and for the times that I do not get up quick enough. I am encouaged that there is no bacteria or white blood cells in his urine yesterday. Hopefully the next two weeks will get better. The other vet said that the incontinence may stop after we get this issure resolved.

The protein has been 100 in the urinalysis. Do you know what Shane's was?

[Guest MZH]

Regarding leakage with the boys. Could it be lack of testosterone? The girls get it from being spayed and a lack of estrogen - they can get DES - so maybe there is something similar for the boys. I know, another out-of-the-box thought but it makes sense to me.

[greyhead]

Yes, you can have a normal strip and normal-looking sediment and still have an infection.

 

For the strip -- the strips look for white cell byproducts and bacterial byproducts that are specific only to certain bacteria. The dog might have a different bacteria, and might not be excreting a lot of white cells for several reasons.

 

For both the strip and the microscopic exam -- Especially if the dog has been drinking a lot (and peeing a lot), you might not see a lot of white cells, red blood cells, or bacteria. First-of-the-morning urine increases your chances of spotting something ooky. Still no guarantee, tho. Hence culturing being a good idea if there's an ongoing or repeat problem. You can fool a petri dish (culture plate) too, but it's harder .

Have you heard of reduced immune function as a reason for failure to show white cells on this kind of exam? Spencer's internist suggested that when we were speaking today and I told her about how Shane's urine is always "clear" on exam but his culture is always positive for E. coli.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

How is Shane doing now, Greyhead?

[Batmom]

 

Have you heard of reduced immune function as a reason for failure to show white cells on this kind of exam? Spencer's internist suggested that when we were speaking today and I told her about how Shane's urine is always "clear" on exam but his culture is always positive for E. coli.

 

Yes, if there's reduced immune function, there could be few white cells. You'd see the rest, tho -- bacteria, often some blood, bacterial metabolism products (those last show up on the chemical strip).

[4My2Greys]

 

Yes, if there's reduced immune function, there could be few white cells. You'd see the rest, tho -- bacteria, often some blood, bacterial metabolism products (those last show up on the chemical strip).

 

Batmom, I'm curious. What are the bacterial metabolism products you are referring to and how would they be listed on the report? The reason I ask is because Nadir has shown in past reports to have reduced immune function and although his previous bouts of incontinence have been proven to be allergy related I would like to know what to look for in the event he does get an actual bacterial U.T.I.

[Batmom]

You would see a positive for nitrites on the chem strip ... if the bacteria is one that produces them. Many do, but some don't, so a negative doesn't mean there's no infection.

 

Often -- again, not always -- you'll also see positives for blood, "leukocyte esterase" or "LE" (white blood cells), maybe a little protein.

 

The chemical strips aren't very good at reading dilute urine. Your vet should always spin it down and look at the sediment, too. Dilution and a host of other factors can affect what is visible in the sediment. Thus, if in doubt, send the pee to an outside lab for a full workup* and a culture.

 

*Full workup at outside lab: They'll have some extra tests they can do to confirm (or not) what the chemical strip says. Most of these are quick and easy, so outside workup shouldn't be enormously more expensive than your vet's urinalysis. The culture and sensitivity is the pricey part.

[4My2Greys]

Thank you for your reply.

[greyhead]

How is Shane doing now, Greyhead?

Not real well, still having leakage, drinking lots of water, and needing to go out every 2 to 4 hours during the day. He has been on the Baytril about a week now, and I'm not seeing any improvement. I don't know what to think, though, because his improvement, when it has happened, has been slow each time he has been started or re-started on a/b. It took 3 days to see improvement in his demeanor the first time, and 2-3 weeks before the leakage stopped. The last round of amoxi-clav, he didn't stop leaking at all. Overall, I feel very discouraged. This is about to get super expensive, I fear, and we'll be lucky if expensive is the worst of it.

 

The internist floated Cushings as a possibility, by the way. I guess that could explain why he's hungry all the time.

 

Yes, if there's reduced immune function, there could be few white cells. You'd see the rest, tho -- bacteria, often some blood, bacterial metabolism products (those last show up on the chemical strip).

I don't know if the vet did a strip. (She just said she "looked at it.") When the lab ran it as a urinalysis, all they saw was bacteria, and not an alarming number of those. But that was a while ago.

Edited March 4, 2011 by greyhead

[greyhead]

Yes, if there's reduced immune function, there could be few white cells. You'd see the rest, tho -- bacteria, often some blood, bacterial metabolism products (those last show up on the chemical strip).

 

Batmom, I'm curious. What are the bacterial metabolism products you are referring to and how would they be listed on the report? The reason I ask is because Nadir has shown in past reports to have reduced immune function and although his previous bouts of incontinence have been proven to be allergy related I would like to know what to look for in the event he does get an actual bacterial U.T.I.

What was Nadir allergic to, and how was that demonstrated? If I look, will I find a thread about it? (I'm really exhausted, or I'd just do the work and go look.) Shane has been on grain-free food for years, btw. Finally switched him from NB back to Wellness Core recently because his poops were just too huge.

[Batmom]

greyhead, it might be worth doing another urinalysis (and culture, if any bacteria is seen) now, while he's on the antibiotic. I know Baytril is often thought of as the big gun of UTI antibiotics, but it doesn't kill everything. Alas.

 

Fingers crossed you can get to the bottom of things.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Not real well, still having leakage, drinking lots of water, and needing to go out every 2 to 4 hours during the day. He has been on the Baytril about a week now, and I'm not seeing any improvement. I don't know what to think, though, because his improvement, when it has happened, has been slow each time he has been started or re-started on a/b. It took 3 days to see improvement in his demeanor the first time, and 2-3 weeks before the leakage stopped. The last round of amoxi-clav, he didn't stop leaking at all. Overall, I feel very discouraged. This is about to get super expensive, I fear, and we'll be lucky if expensive is the worst of it.

 

The internist floated Cushings as a possibility, by the way. I guess that could explain why he's hungry all the time.

 

 

 

Ugh, I hope it's NOT Cushings! Will be keeping everything crossed that it's just a really, really stubborn UTI.

[4My2Greys]

Yes, if there's reduced immune function, there could be few white cells. You'd see the rest, tho -- bacteria, often some blood, bacterial metabolism products (those last show up on the chemical strip).

 

Batmom, I'm curious. What are the bacterial metabolism products you are referring to and how would they be listed on the report? The reason I ask is because Nadir has shown in past reports to have reduced immune function and although his previous bouts of incontinence have been proven to be allergy related I would like to know what to look for in the event he does get an actual bacterial U.T.I.

What was Nadir allergic to, and how was that demonstrated? If I look, will I find a thread about it? (I'm really exhausted, or I'd just do the work and go look.) Shane has been on grain-free food for years, btw. Finally switched him from NB back to Wellness Core recently because his poops were just too huge.

 

You can read my post on page 2 of Fenway's Mystery Pee Problem. It explains everything and how I came to that conclusion.

 

Edited to add page #

Edited March 4, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Guest Djangobear]

Although I don't have a grey hound (I have a border collie) these posts caught my eye as my dog has been battling a recurrent UTI for almost 6 months! Since June. He is also only a little over one year. It was discovered that he had an E Coli infection. He was started on a broad spectrum anti-biotic which did not work, was later placed on Cephalexin as this was the supposed correct antibiotic for this infection. He would do a course of this drug for a few weeks and when he came off it, within 2-3 days, all of his symptoms would come back. He would then be placed back on this drug again for a longer duration, then same story, once off, symptoms back. He has had an xray and ultra sound of his bladder and kidneys and there were no stones or any physical abnormalities detected. He also has been leaking glucose in his urine and tested negative for Diabetes. The vet believes he has some sort of kidney issue which is almost unheard of for this breed of dog and that the glucose also makes him more susceptible to bacterial infection. He was also tested for Fanconi Syndrome and this was ruled out. Through my research and through speaking to professionals in the human field of medicine, I have been informed that glucose can leak into the urine as a result of an infection and that it does not necessarily indicate kidney disease (although vets will argue this). We also changed his diet to a salmon and potato kibble as opposed to his previous chicken kibble in the event that he may have had an allergy to the chicken or wheat or gluten as I read the food allergies can cause inflammation of the urinary tract which can create places for bacteria to hide. He loves his new food and we have noticed that his bowel movements have become more solid on his new diet. He also takes crannimals (powdered cranberry) on his food daily to reduce UTI's and acidopholus daily as well. 4 weeks ago he was started Baytril as it was determined (after months and months) that the antibiotic that was being prescribed was not working (which was quite obvious when the infection continued) and that the e coli became resistant to the Cephalexin. This was determined after a culture and sensitivity and the vet said that Baytril showed to be more effective. So.... after months and months of antibiotics, urinalysis, blood work, xrays, diet changes, supplements, I am hopeful that the Baytril will be the cure. This is day two of not being on the antibiotic and so far no symptoms... Thanks for the post Greyhead and it's nice to know (as stressful and awful as this situation is) that others have experienced the same frustration Hope Shane found his cure and is currently leading a happy and healthy UTI free life!

[greyhead]

So.... after months and months of antibiotics, urinalysis, blood work, xrays, diet changes, supplements, I am hopeful that the Baytril will be the cure. This is day two of not being on the antibiotic and so far no symptoms... Thanks for the post Greyhead and it's nice to know (as stressful and awful as this situation is) that others have experienced the same frustration Hope Shane found his cure and is currently leading a happy and healthy UTI free life!

Nice to meet you, though I wish it were under better circumstances. Shane is doing fine now. We finally knocked out the UTI. But after that he had a weird spell, for lack of a better word, where his BP was low, gums pale, and he had distinct tenderness in the general vicinity of his kidneys. Took him to an internist, who did an ultrasound and aspirated enlarged lymph nodes in the area. Nothing remarkable from that, but we decided to do more TBD testing -- he had already been treated for Babesia -- and he was "low positive" for Lyme. After we treated for that and changed him to a medium-protein Royal Canin renal kibble, his urinary leakage finally stopped. It returns whenever we try to change the food, so we don't change it anymore. He doesn't need the Proin or the enalapril that a different internist had wanted to put him on. He does have dilute urine and somewhat elevated creatinine, but he doesn't seem to have any acute or rapidly advancing kidney disease that anyone can pinpoint. We'll probably never know to what extent his problems were caused by the TBD's affecting his urinary system or by the very lengthy UTI. (I suspect both contributed.) But that's the end of our story as it has stood for the past year and a half, and so far so good. Best luck with your border collie! Hope you'll let us know how things progress.

[Guest Djangobear]

Hi Greyhead! I am glad to hear that Shane is finally doing bettter, it's unfortunate that he (and you) have had to go through such a lengthy battle of tests, medicines, procedures, etc. I find in our situation the worst has been the not knowing, the guessing game, the ruling out, etc. As for Django, all of his bloodwork and kidney panels came back completely normal, other than the glucose in the urine, so we're not looking at a kidney diet at this time. He also presents as very healthy, lots of energy, good appetite, and happy, with the exception of the recurrent UTI's. This is day three now of being off of the Baytril and so far, no symptoms of UTI (knock on wood). He will be going in for another urine culture and sensitivity a week off of his meds, or sooner if symptoms appear. I worry too about the damage this UTI could have caused where he's had it for almost 6 months. I wish they had've decided to a try a new med sooner than they did instead of just placing him on the one that wasn't working over and over again. However, our regular vet was off for 8 weeks due to having surgery so we had to do some jumping around to other vets who did not have the lengthy involvement/history with Django. Both his regular vet and the specialist who saw him said that his case is very rare. That they have never seen a dog with glucose in the urine but no other symptoms of a kidney issue. So... I'm praying that this is an acute issue, rather than something progressive. I will continue to keep you posted. Thanks again for all of the info on Shane as reading his story definitely hit close to home and all of that information is very helpful as well.