Got Such A Fright At Playgroup Today

[MerlinsMum]

Sagan is my shadow, he follows me everywhere. He is submissive and can be very shy or fearful with other breeds and new people, although he's made much progress in the nearly 2 years since we brought him home. I like take him to playgroup, among other things, to socialize more with other hounds. Mostly, he tends not to run with the others. However, sometimes he will take off with a little encouragement from mum, and then he's usually running ahead of the rest with the help of his long, long legs.

 

Today at playgroup I encouraged him to run with me, and then he took off - and sure enough the other hounds immediately followed. Except a couple of toes got stomped on in the process - what with everyone crowding each other - and the aggression started. Merlin was one of the dogs who went for him He can be a real bully with Sagan sometimes. But it just went on and on and the more I ran to stop them, the more I realized that it not going to just fizzle out. I know many of you know exactly what I'm referring to... when competitiveness is coupled with misplaced aggression and dominant personalities, and there is high speed running involved - the results can be awful. And who is often the first dog to bear the brunt of all this? The submissive one He kept trying to outrun them all, but eventually he got to a fence and he was stuck right in the middle of what had by now become a gang of houndies bullying him and caging him in. I ran and ran but they were so fast that I couldn't catch up with them. A couple of other people helped but most of the playgroup members just STOOD there, which really upset me. I confess to losing my patience and raising my voice at them to not just stand there but to help me stop it... I don't understand for the life of me why people do this. Are they scared they're going to get hurt? It was obvious that the intensity of the situation was just going to keep escalating. If we hadn't intervened in the end it could have ended very badly.

 

Anyway, finally I managed to grab one of the more persistent and bullying houndies. Someone else grabbed Merlin, and someone grabbed the third troublemaker. Of course at that point the rest of the hounds dispersed immediately, and I ran to Sagan to check him over. He did have missing fur and superficial wounds in two places, and he was trembling with his tail firmly stuck between his legs, poor baby, but on the whole he was INCREDIBLY lucky. I seriously thought that the situation was going to end very, very badly with multiple and serious injuries for many of the dogs.

 

When I caught my breath and we all calmed our dogs down, the first thing I said to everyone was "... and THAT is why I made muzzles compulsory at playgroup" (in the early days of our playgroup some members had objected to the use of muzzles). But I do berate myself for giving in to some people's objections, in recent months, about the number of greys allowed at playgroup at one time. With several of us having two hounds, what would happen is that someone would go to RSVP for the play date and find that it was already full. The rules of the group state that no more than 8 hounds can be running in the ballfield at any one time, so play dates fill up very quickly and not everyone gets the chance to participate.

 

I was thinking that maybe we could allow up to ten people but have the greys take turns, so that only 5 greys are allowed to run together at one time? Any suggestions? Has anyone here had this problem at playgroup? I also think our group needs to have a conversation about the dogs with dominant personalities who are more likely to start trouble, so that we can be better prepared if anything kicks off again in the future.

[Guest carmasims]

i'm sorry that you had to watch that- i can imagine how scary it must have been.

 

what about having the pups wear basket/kennel muzzles at playgroup? --- sorry, reread. ***other owners object to them? seems a good way to keep everyone safe in case of an errant tooth on greyhound skin, etc. ?

Edited August 15, 2010 by carmasims

[Guest greybookends]

Kerry pack attacks are scary. People don't know just how scary until they actually witness one. Suddenly someone's sweet little diva is a snarling mass of teeth and legs. Good for you for insisting on the muzzles.

 

We also have a large group of hounds and have had to limit the number of hounds on the field. We don't limit the # of hounds allowed at a play group but we have several sign up sheets. We have an aggressive runner group( mostly very young competitive hounds), less aggressive(those that have begun to mellow a bit) Seniors(older hounds or those that are not big runners) and the Hahas( injured or just want to smell the flowers and roll in the grass). We then call out names and only those called are allowed on the field unleashed. They play for 10 minutes or so, we leash them up and call for another group. This continues until everyone has had a chance to run. We then go through the groups again. Everyone has a chance to run at least twice. Everyone is responsible for their own hound. By the end of the play group the group has begun to thin out and the hounds are wore out so you can let larger groups loose. People socializing is fine but you better be watching your hound. If an incident such as you described occurs you need to take charge of your own hound not someone else.

 

I hope Sagan recovers both physically and emotionally.

[Guest mountain4greys]

The idea of only letting 5 run at a time is a great idea. Maybe for 15 minute intervals. Then switch. Always, always, have muzzles on the hounds when they are together.

[Guest Greytluv]

I think you should number the amount of dogs at one time and ALWAYS muzzle.

 

Sagan

Edited August 15, 2010 by Greytluv

[Guest TeddysMom]

Kerry pack attacks are scary. People don't know just how scary until they actually witness one. Suddenly someone's sweet little diva is a snarling mass of teeth and legs. Good for you for insisting on the muzzles.

 

We also have a large group of hounds and have had to limit the number of hounds on the field. We don't limit the # of hounds allowed at a play group but we have several sign up sheets. We have an aggressive runner group( mostly very young competitive hounds), less aggressive(those that have begun to mellow a bit) Seniors(older hounds or those that are not big runners) and the Hahas( injured or just want to smell the flowers and roll in the grass). We then call out names and only those called are allowed on the field unleashed. They play for 10 minutes or so, we leash them up and call for another group. This continues until everyone has had a chance to run. We then go through the groups again. Everyone has a chance to run at least twice. Everyone is responsible for their own hound. By the end of the play group the group has begun to thin out and the hounds are wore out so you can let larger groups loose. People socializing is fine but you better be watching your hound. If an incident such as you described occurs you need to take charge of your own hound not someone else.

 

I hope Sagan recovers both physically and emotionally.

 

I think this is a well thought out way to have a playgroup. It is pretty much how things have to work around my large pack of dogs, they just take turns and everyone gets plenty of exercise and are easier to keep tabs on. I don't know of anything more frightening than watching the pack mentality take over. I also hope that this does not set back Sagan's progress too much. Thank God everyone had muzzles on.

[Batmom]

Thank god for muzzles. I can imagine how frightened you must have been and am glad that no worse damage was done. Across between greybookends' method and limited number of hounds running sounds good to me.

[OwnedBySummer]

We have a group here, too, and they are ALWAYS muzzled. Luckily, we don't normally have any trouble-makers and can run quite a large group with no worries. But when the trouble-makers attend, we pay a lot more attention. Summer has only owned me since the beginning of May but in that time, we've not had to restrict the numbers or rotate the dogs. But I was told that we'd probably do it by color. You know, all the fawns at one time, then all the brindles... that kind of thing.

 

Edited August 15, 2010 by OwnedBySummer

[robinw]

I've seen those attacks at playgroup and they are very scary, even with muzzles. I dealt with it by not attending. Instead, we hooked up with a few hounds with similar temperaments and never hung around with more than five or so muzzled hounds at once. Any more than that seemed to be asking for trouble.

[TheFullHouse]

Kerry pack attacks are scary. People don't know just how scary until they actually witness one. Suddenly someone's sweet little diva is a snarling mass of teeth and legs. Good for you for insisting on the muzzles.

 

We also have a large group of hounds and have had to limit the number of hounds on the field. We don't limit the # of hounds allowed at a play group but we have several sign up sheets. We have an aggressive runner group( mostly very young competitive hounds), less aggressive(those that have begun to mellow a bit) Seniors(older hounds or those that are not big runners) and the Hahas( injured or just want to smell the flowers and roll in the grass). We then call out names and only those called are allowed on the field unleashed. They play for 10 minutes or so, we leash them up and call for another group. This continues until everyone has had a chance to run. We then go through the groups again. Everyone has a chance to run at least twice. Everyone is responsible for their own hound. By the end of the play group the group has begun to thin out and the hounds are wore out so you can let larger groups loose. People socializing is fine but you better be watching your hound. If an incident such as you described occurs you need to take charge of your own hound not someone else.

 

I hope Sagan recovers both physically and emotionally.

 

Lori, that's a great way to run play group. I know for sure there are two of mine that I would not let run with any submissive dogs. Unfortunately, once the pack instinct sets in, the only choice you have is to physically break it up. I think I'd let everyone know at playgroup that if something like that happens again, everyone is responsible for getting in there and pulling off a dog, if they can't get their own, get someone's dog.

[Guest PhillyPups]

We have a group here, too, and they are ALWAYS muzzled. Luckily, we don't normally have any trouble-makers and can run quite a large group with no worries. But when the trouble-makers attend, we pay a lot more attention. Summer has only owned me since the beginning of May but in that time, we've not had to restrict the numbers or rotate the dogs. But I was told that we'd probably do it by color. You know, all the fawns at one time, then all the brindles... that kind of thing.

 

 

Lisa B,

 

I know you are new to greyhounds, so please take this as it is meant, instructive advice - the number of dogs in that picture scares the crap out of me.

 

It is it not necessarily a "troublemaker" that sets the pack instinct off - it can be as simple as one hound jamming a toe and yelping - the yelp will set off the instinct. As much as our hounds are our "furkids" they are above all dogs and think like dogs - instinct is much stronger than our reasoning.

 

Unless one has witnessed a "pack attack" there is no way to describe it. When one starts just grab dogs - any dogs - AND when it is over there is still their adrenalin to deal with, or it can start again in an instant.

 

Muzzles are wonderful, but in the frenzy of a pack attack, hounds can do damage with the muzzles on.

 

Kerry, Lori had excellent advice. My last trip to a dogpark had a pack attack happen, did not involve my dogs, but they still joined in. The people that never experienced one before stood there dumbstruck - I screamed (with some obscenities) grab a dog - their instinct was to look for their dog, and I yelled any f**in dog -

 

Even scarier, one owner had her baby in there in a stroller.

 

I would rather have my dogs home safe.

 

Sagan heals and your emotions heal Kerry.

[MerlinsMum]

Thank you all - GREAT advice. I'm glad you all posted these comments, because at one point I almost thought that maybe people at playgroup thought I was overreacting. I know that as an organizer I am more apprehensive than others about safety, etc, but first of all, that's my "job" as organizer, and secondly, I really don't think some people realized how badly it could have ended. I wish more people became familiar with their dogs' body language, because if they did, this sort of thing would be less common, I think - people would be more savvy about what to look out for, and quicker at recognizing the initial signs of potential problems.

 

For those who weren't sure - the muzzles are absolutely, 100% MANDATORY at the playgroup I organize. And when I say mandatory, I mean that any dog who turns up without a muzzle simply doesn't get to run, NO exceptions EVER (it's happened several times that people have turned up and had forgotten their hounds' muzzles... so I bought several spares ones and keep them in the car at all times, to lend them to people on such occasions.)

 

Lori, what a GREAT idea! I am definitely going to talk to the group about implementing it here too. We may just end up having two groups rather than four, as we have very few seniors at this time and although we have a lot of members, it ends up being the same group of people, give or take, at most play dates - it's always the same dogs who run and act very competitive, or try to control the situation. That's why I agree that reducing the number of dogs is good but not enough. Identifying personality types is just as important, if not more important. Doing both is ideal.

 

Thanks

 

 

It is it not necessarily a "troublemaker" that sets the pack instinct off - it can be as simple as one hound jamming a toe and yelping - the yelp will set off the instinct. As much as our hounds are our "furkids" they are above all dogs and think like dogs - instinct is much stronger than our reasoning.

 

^^ This. And in fact that's exactly what happened today.

 

Unless one has witnessed a "pack attack" there is no way to describe it. When one starts just grab dogs - any dogs - AND when it is over there is still their adrenalin to deal with, or it can start again in an instant.

 

Muzzles are wonderful, but in the frenzy of a pack attack, hounds can do damage with the muzzles on.

 

I agree with every single word of this. I had seen some potentially bad situations, that I broke up immediately, but never this. It's really terrifying. You know, everything is fine one minute, and then you see THAT and you just go on auto-pilot because you just KNOW in your gut that if you don't intervene there are going to be emergency-vet visits involved. Pat,l I am so glad I wasn't alone in yelling at other people in this kind of situation I think you're right, people just freeze, and my eyes were so focused on the dogs that mentally the group members were just a blur in the back of my mind and I took their stillness as a sign of complacency - but it was probably fright.

[Dawnnziggy]

We take our dogs to the ballfield to run on days when it is not so hot. It has been a killer summer so we have not let the dogs run in months! We take our 3 and if anyone else is there, we just go home. I am afraid that something bad would happen. Two of mine are very easy going(both boys)but when emotions heat up, they are just as likely to jump. I hope that Sagan is okay and that you are as well!

[Guest mcsheltie]

Boy I know you feel. I was the only one close enough during a five dog fight. When I got it stopped I thought I was going to keel over.

 

One thing I want to add is if there is a fight DO NOT grab collars. That is the surest way to get bitten. Instead grab their back legs and run backwards (like you have a wheel barrow) When pack mentality sets in even your own hound will turn and bite you when they feel something on their neck. The wheel barrow method will keep you out of harm's way.

 

If everyone in the group knows what to do you can run in and break up a fight quickly.

Edited August 15, 2010 by mcsheltie

[greytluck]

I've been to many play groups over the last three years with my greyhounds. I've seen what you described a few times and fortunately we were lucky it never lead to any serious injuries. I used to go to one group run that was at a public park and other breeds sometimes were there as well. The group of greyhounds became to big for the space and couple that with the dynamic of other breeds being there too and I didn't feel safe going there anymore.

 

I began going to another run that was much better organized and managed but most importantly because it was only greyhounds every dog was muzzled. I've still seen dogs get out of hand, and heck it was mine a few more times then I would like to admit. The thing which works really well at this run is that for the most part all the people are quick to step in when problems do start to occur, and not just with there own dog(s). Some dogs(including mine) don't run well with other dogs in particular so time outs are our friends. Going to a run always brings a certain risk to it, but you can't deny the dogs truly love it and for the most part it's a good way for the dogs to socialize and really stretch there legs.

[seeh2o]

No advice here, but I'm so glad that Sagan didn't get hurt (physically). I'd have really given the business to those who didn't step in to help out to untangle the pack.

[Sighthounds4me]

Another thought - grab rear legs, wheelbarrow style, and pull the hounds off each other. They can't fight you if you do this - they have no control. And they can't whip around and bite you - you are too far behind them. This helps break up many a fight.

[FiveRoooooers]

Lori's sign-up scenario is greyt - - everyone gets a second turn if they hadn't burned it up the first time, and organizing the dogs into the separate groups just makes sense. No one should have a problem with that, in fact they should thankful for the diligence to safety. And no negotiating on the muzzles. In all of the frenzy, even the most carefully fitted muzzle can become askew or worse come off, but they absolutely should be required.

 

I just want to mention that people freeze for many reasons, most of which are mentioned above. But I've seen it with horses, too ... too many people rush in to "help" - most of whom are well meaning but some of whom have no clue, which escalates a problem that quite possibly may have dispersed on its own. Again, not defending, but sharing an observation.

 

for you and Sagan. And what is up with Merlin!!

[MerlinsMum]

And what is up with Merlin!!

 

Let's not go there... DH says I am partly to blame for Merlin's a sense of entitlement and I think he may have a point. He pointed out some instances in which I act like Merlin can do no wrong (because he's my wizardy boy and I am crazy about him), and I think he may be right. And there are other things... if Merlin is cold in the night, he'll come to me and just stare at me, and I'll somehow wake up and get up and tuck him in. If he wants to get on the couch, all he has to do is come and stand there and look at me (he has this way of opening his eyes wide and looking slightly confused, as if to say "Er... did you not get that memo...? You seem to be in my spot ) and guess what Sucker of the Year does? Yup.

 

I think it's time to go back to basics with Merlin and implement some good old fashioned NILIF again.

 

For those who mentioned the "wheelbarrow" method of stopping a fight - thanks so much, I would never have thought of that. Just one question - don't I risk causing some damage to their legs by doing this? But I'm assuming the point is to apply just enough pressure to throw them off balance? Right?

[Guest twhitehouse]

Kerry...so sorry to hear that Sagan was hurt, both physically and emotionally. Poor guy!

 

 

As an owner of one of the sometimes troublemakers, Lexi , I know that I'm constantly watching out for her and watching what she's doing. We haven't been to playgroup in quite some time because I got a little annoyed with other owners last time. I don't know if you remember, but someone had other dogs running in the next field over and of course that got the greyhounds wound up. Lexi and Tess were both part of the blame in this. I could see that the situation was close to getting out of control and close to having some misdirected aggression. I pulled my girls away ASAP but was annoyed when other owners just stood there....in fact, stood at the other side of the field, just talking! Watch your dogs people!!!!

 

 

As a member of the playgroup, I will agree with you that it does get out of hand. I believe that the above recommendation for splitting up the groups based on personality would be ideal. Let them run for 10 minutes and then switch... I also feel like members of the group need to be watching and paying more attention to their dogs. A little less talking and little more action, please.

 

Just my $.02!

 

 

 

to Sagan.

[Guest PhillyPups]

It is best during a playgroup to have people spread out and their eyes watching the dogs at all times. If they want to have time to visit with each other, that is done after playgroup when all hounds are leashed.

 

Merlin did what any higher prey greyhound would do, he reacted on his natural instinct. My sweet AnnaBanana is the preydriven of my 5, sweet as they come, no reflection of her house manners, just her instinct and when that kicks in all bets as to any training are off. She will play very well with others at play group (not at all a troublemaker in any way). But one squeal and she is in prey mode.

[MerlinsMum]

Kerry...so sorry to hear that Sagan was hurt, both physically and emotionally. Poor guy!

 

As an owner of one of the sometimes troublemakers, Lexi , I know that I'm constantly watching out for her and watching what she's doing. We haven't been to playgroup in quite some time because I got a little annoyed with other owners last time. I don't know if you remember, but someone had other dogs running in the next field over and of course that got the greyhounds wound up. Lexi and Tess were both part of the blame in this. I could see that the situation was close to getting out of control and close to having some misdirected aggression. I pulled my girls away ASAP but was annoyed when other owners just stood there....in fact, stood at the other side of the field, just talking! Watch your dogs people!!!!

 

 

As a member of the playgroup, I will agree with you that it does get out of hand. I believe that the above recommendation for splitting up the groups based on personality would be ideal. Let them run for 10 minutes and then switch... I also feel like members of the group need to be watching and paying more attention to their dogs. A little less talking and little more action, please.

 

Just my $.02!

 

to Sagan.

 

Thank you for your feedback, Toni. Seriously, I'm really glad to hear this. I thought it was just me Sometimes I really struggle to juggle the different duties I feel I should fulfill as organizer - i.e. being welcoming and catching up with people while simultaneously keeping an eye on the hounds at all times, to make sure that they are playing well together, their muzzles are secure, no trouble is brewing - and that, you know, they're not eating poop It's really hard sometimes, because I know that people like to chat, but personally I would be content with not getting into big long conversations, but just standing there and watching the dogs, maybe running with them, and I'd much prefer it if we all focused on the dogs at all times. When I had just Merlin we sometimes used to take him to the dog park (when I think back to those days I seriously cringe sometimes) and I stopped going after (a) I was bitten by a dog and (b ) I realized that people just weren't interested in participating in the experience with their dogs - they were just bringing them to the dog park so that they didn't have to walk them They would arrive with a Dunkin Donuts coffee in one hand and a muffin in another and just stand there or sit on the benches and chat. They would pay no attention WHATSOEVER to what their dogs were doing, and when someone complained about their dogs, they would feebly and half-heartedly call their dog. If it worked, great, if not they went back to chatting. Finally I grew exasperated and stopped going because I was worried that something serious would happen soon. I REALLY don't want playgroup to become like that. I did not set it up as a chat club for greyhound enthusiasts to socialize. It's primarily an opportunity for greyhounds to run together and socialize, and of course it's nice to catch up with other greyhound folks and I enjoy that aspect of it, but it's not my main concern and it certainly isn't why I set up the group. I remember the incident you mentioned and I have often wondered why people are so slow or inattentive sometimes. We need to pay more attention, ALL of us, to what's going on, and I get frustrated sometimes because I feel that it's kind of left to me to supervise or to make sure the enclosure is secure, etc.

 

I'll draft an email to the group. I hope you will consider coming back to playgroup with the girls soon. I also want people to feel comfortable mentioning this sort of thing to everyone. We should can and should make more use of the mailing list.

 

Thanks again

Edited August 16, 2010 by MerlinsMum

[arandomchic]

How scary!

 

I don't understand when people don't get control of their dogs immediately when things get out of control. Not in a pack setting, but Molly jumped on, rolled and growled at our neighbor's dog. We had her under control almost instantly, and they just stood there letting their dog come back up to Molly while she was still worked up, growling and baring teeth. They didn't react until I yelled "Get control of your dog!" I get that their dog didn't start it, but at that point I don't care who's fault it is...I am more interested in making sure the situation is managed.

 

If you haven't, maybe consider having all participants read, agree to and sign something about the rules and responsibilities of participating in play group (which could include, "Your main focus should be on your dog. Keep chatting and conversations to a minimum during playtime, etc."). Maybe some people just don't realize they need to be doing it. It could also help to personally talk to new play group members about what's expected. Sometimes people read something and don't really remember it (or sign without reading at all).

[Jackandgrey]

Kerry pack attacks are scary. People don't know just how scary until they actually witness one. Suddenly someone's sweet little diva is a snarling mass of teeth and legs. Good for you for insisting on the muzzles.

 

We also have a large group of hounds and have had to limit the number of hounds on the field. We don't limit the # of hounds allowed at a play group but we have several sign up sheets. We have an aggressive runner group( mostly very young competitive hounds), less aggressive(those that have begun to mellow a bit) Seniors(older hounds or those that are not big runners) and the Hahas( injured or just want to smell the flowers and roll in the grass). We then call out names and only those called are allowed on the field unleashed. They play for 10 minutes or so, we leash them up and call for another group. This continues until everyone has had a chance to run. We then go through the groups again. Everyone has a chance to run at least twice. Everyone is responsible for their own hound. By the end of the play group the group has begun to thin out and the hounds are wore out so you can let larger groups loose. People socializing is fine but you better be watching your hound. If an incident such as you described occurs you need to take charge of your own hound not someone else.

 

I hope Sagan recovers both physically and emotionally.

 

When we had a large group participating this is exactly how we did it! Also you have to be really firm that play date for the dogs can't always be for their people to stand around and socialize. They have to all move around the field and keep their eyes on the dogs and their behavior. They ALL have to be ready to intervene the minute their is potential trouble and to grab any dog not just their own if need be.

 

Kerry, Jack was always in the "therapy" group as we lovingly called it where hounds like Sagan would feel safe. give that boy a smooch kay?

[MerlinsMum]

Oh, he's gotten a LOT of smooches today :blush but I'm going to give him another one from you, Susan!

 

Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely going to encourage people to move around the field more and keep an eye on their dogs and general pack dynamics constantly while they're at playgroup. I love Lori's idea and I think it will make it a lot less stressful for the less competitive hounds.

 

If you haven't, maybe consider having all participants read, agree to and sign something about the rules and responsibilities of participating in play group (which could include, "Your main focus should be on your dog. Keep chatting and conversations to a minimum during playtime, etc."). Maybe some people just don't realize they need to be doing it. It could also help to personally talk to new play group members about what's expected. Sometimes people read something and don't really remember it (or sign without reading at all).

 

Absolutely. Every new member of our playgroup must read the rules of the group and sign a waiver. Our rules specifically mandate that all members of the group share responsibility for checking the all fences/gates are secure, keep an eye on their dogs at all times, etc. But you're right, people forget about this stuff. I think I just need to remind people of how important that is, today was certainly a wake-up call.