Amputation For My Grey

[DesiRayMom]

Tiffy: No advice, everyone else has said it all. Just know there is a world of moral support out here. My best wishes & hopes for a good outcome.

[MP_the4pack]

Tiffany, I'm in NJ, just about an hour from you if you're in Philly.

 

If U of Penn gives Annie a 'knock-out' shot, she should sleep for 9 hrs. That's how long it takes to get to OSU. I drove that twice this past year. (an OS dog and a Fibrosarcoma dog).

 

It's an easy straight across Pa drive to Ohio. I would still consider it. If she sleeps the whole way, it's worth it.

 

Good luck with whatever decision you make. It's going to be difficult no matter what. But remember you're doing it out of love for Annie.

 

By the way, I have an NGAP dog. While I think they're terrific with dentals, I would not do an Amp there. Dr. King is the critical care person at U of Penn. She's been there for ages and is a most wonderful doctor. She took care of my Brindle 9 yrs ago.

[Guest tiffysmith]

Hi everyone..just wanted to give you an Annie update. Annie was in immense pain. We decided that it was best to amputate her leg immediately to get her out of pain. The operation was performed at the U of Penn this afternoon. Annie did greyt. No transfusion needed, no complications. We can go and see her tomorrow... YEAH!!! I just want to bring my baby home!!!

[Guest Swifthounds]

Wonderful news! Lots of good, healing thoughts for a speedy recovery for all.

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I am so glad she did well!

[teri_d]

rest well, beautiful annie - the experts on gt will be glad to help you get your house in order for her homecoming!!! i highly recommend chicken breasts cooked in ck boullion and processed in the food processor joejoes mom goes right for the steak and liver however yum!!

[Guest azlorenz]

Hi everyone..just wanted to give you an Annie update. Annie was in immense pain. We decided that it was best to amputate her leg immediately to get her out of pain. The operation was performed at the U of Penn this afternoon. Annie did greyt. No transfusion needed, no complications. We can go and see her tomorrow... YEAH!!! I just want to bring my baby home!!!

 

Hoping Annie heals up quickly and you can bring your baby home.

 

rest well, beautiful annie - the experts on gt will be glad to help you get your house in order for her homecoming!!! i highly recommend chicken breasts cooked in ck boullion and processed in the food processor joejoes mom goes right for the steak and liver however yum!!

 

And we went for the Beechnut Stage 1 Beef with Beef Broth, no other would do

[silverfish]

I'm so glad she came through the op so well! It's a bit of a rough recovery, but it's only for a short time and then you'll find she comes on leaps and bounds. The horrible pain will be less right from the start (due to the heavy pain meds) and eventually will just be gone.

 

I visited my local adoption kennel today to take pictures of their new hounds (I run the website for them, it's in my siggie) and to take some extra pics of Henry to update his profile. Henry broke his left front foot in April just running in the paddock, and the two separate vets they consulted both said it was the worst case they'd ever seen since every single bone in his foot appeared to be broken. They advised amputation of the leg and he's doing just great. He was doing fine less than two weeks later when I first took his picture, but now, it's difficult to keep him still on the end of the lead to take the shots. He spins and jumps and pounces on toys. I almost wish I'd taken some video of him, but Sharon hates (hates hates hates!) to be in any of the photos. If only you could see him go, you'd be so encouraged about your precious Annie!

 

Give her a scritch for me! I hope her recovery is fast and uneventful.

[RobinM]

Let the healing begin. She will be back on 3 legs in no time. Let her set her pace. Best advice I can give you is to keep ahead of the pain. Give her pain meds whether or not you think she needs them. It's much easier to stay ahead of the pain to relieve her pain if she is in pain.

 

Follow the regiment they tell you. With Polli it was 1 - 100mg deramaxx a day and 100 mg of tramadol every 4-6 hours. She also had a lot of anxiety with her new 3 leg status and we had to give her 10mg of valium for the first 3 days. That helped. Don't be afraid to ask questions.

[carronstar]

No advice just a lot of good thoughts and prayers for you both.

[4greyhounds]

Sending lots of Good Thoughts for a Quick Recovery time....

[TheFullHouse]

No advice but wishing your baby a speedy recovery.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Hoping for a quick recovery

[Guest PhillyPups]

for a quick recovery. If you help with anything, please let me know, I am in Philly.

 

to you and Annie

[Guest Swifthounds]

Follow the regiment they tell you. With Polli it was 1 - 100mg deramaxx a day and 100 mg of tramadol every 4-6 hours. She also had a lot of anxiety with her new 3 leg status and we had to give her 10mg of valium for the first 3 days. That helped. Don't be afraid to ask questions.

 

Were they having you give the tramadol and the valium?

[Charlies_Dad]

I hope you go to see Annie and she is on the mend. Tripods are greyt! She will do very well, it will just take a bit of time. Like Robin said, managing the pain is important and to stay ahead of it. There is nothing like your pup being in pain.

 

We'll be thinking of you and Annie.

[ivon]

Sending healing thoughts for Annie, hugs for you!

[Sirocco_Nikki]

I hope your sweet girl is doin' the butt-tuck-zoomies in no time. Hugs to both of you.

[RobinM]

Follow the regiment they tell you. With Polli it was 1 - 100mg deramaxx a day and 100 mg of tramadol every 4-6 hours. She also had a lot of anxiety with her new 3 leg status and we had to give her 10mg of valium for the first 3 days. That helped. Don't be afraid to ask questions.

 

Were they having you give the tramadol and the valium?

 

 

Yes. For the first 3 days after she got home. She would get up and stand on the bed (we had mattresses on the floor) and start SCREAMING out of control. She would just stare and scream. It was heartbreaking. She had major anxiety. Once that passed, we stopped.

[Guest Swifthounds]

Interesting. I've not dealth with tramadol and MAOIs or SSRIs in canines, but they are contraindicated in humans because of the risk of psychiatric side effects, including some similar to what it sounds like she had. I wonder if there's a difference for dogs, though in that type of situation priority one is minimizing the trauma to the hound.

[Guest tiffysmith]

Hi. We saw Annie today. She is still in some pain and they have just uped her meds. She did look better today than yesterday. Tomorrow they will see how she is doing and see if we can bring her home :-) I did take some pics:

 

[Batmom]

What a doll she is. Hoping along with you that she can come home tomorrow.

[Guest roselle]

I will first answer your primary question and then give you more information.

 

Yes it is possible to have clear lung x-rays and an inconclusive (negative) aspiration and still have bone cancer. Usually bone cancer can be diagnosed with a good deal of certainty by viewing an x-ray. Most cancers have a very distinctive pattern. A fine needle aspirate can confirm that diagnosis or be inconclusive. Since a biopsy can weaken the bone leading to breakage, it is typically not done. In your case, I am guessing that the break is so severe it is impossible to detect any cancer-like pattern in the bone fragments.

 

You might think back to her behaviour over the last few weeks or month. Have you noticed her limping or favoring a leg? Have you noticed her panting more than usual (a sign of pain)? Has she been playing or running less than normal? While none of these are conclusive, it may give a hint. She certainly could have cancer in the absence of these signs. Likewise, there are other reasons she might limp, pant or play less.

 

Even if it is cancer, you may still want to do an amputation. See the survival statistics below.

 

Osteosarcoma is by far the most common bone cancer in greyhounds; about 1 in 4 greyhounds will get this type of cancer. It is very, very painful. It will weaken the bone so the bone is prone to breaking. This cancer will spread (metastasize) to other bones and the lungs if not treated. In more than 90 percent of the cases there are small mets (matastases) that are not visible on xray. This means that it will spread even when it is treated, but there is a longer survival time with a much better quality of life. There are a couple of bone cancers that do not metastasize. This means that if the affected bones are removed, the dog is essentially cured. Unfortunately, these are not as common as osteosarcoma.

 

Here are some statistics on typical survival times with various treatment options for OS (osteosarcoma) with no visible tumors in the lungs:

 

Amputation, then chemotherapy: 50-60 percent are still living at one year post-amputation. This period has the same or almost the same quality of life as before the cancer. Removal of the cancerous bone eliminates the horrible pain from bone cancer. 10-20 percent are still living at 2 years post amputation. I personally know of a few who have lived 3 years or more. One of my friends has a greyhound that is more than 3 years post amp and is still going strong. However, 40 to 50 percent do not make it to the 1 year point. Try to remember that to a greyhound, one year is 1/12th to 1/14th of their normal life. In other words, a year to us is really 7 years to a greyhound. This treatment is fairly expensive. At Ohio State University, the amputation is typically $3000 to $3500, inclusive of surgery, a 4 day hospital stay, and medications while in the hospital. Administration of the chemo at OSU is relatively inexpensive. The 5 treatments, inclusive of blood work and a lung xray usually totals about $500. I have heard quotes as high as $2500 from other parts of the country.

 

Amputation, but no chemotherapy -- I'm not sure on this one. I would guess 3 to 4 months. Removing the leg eliminates the pain from the bone cancer. However any lung mets that were too small to see on the x-ray would grow. Eventually this would impact her breathing and other functions. It is also possible that there are undetected mets in her other bones (spine, other leg, etc.). In this case, the pain would become uncontrollable.

 

No treatment, except for pain management -- 2 to 3 months after initial diagnosis. In your case, if she has bone cancer you would either need to amputate immediately or put her to sleep immediately.

 

Unlike in humans, chemotherapy in dogs is generally very well tolerated. Most greyhounds have few side affects. Typical side affects are some lethargy and queasiness for a day or two after the chemo treatment. This often doesn't start until midway through the course of treatment. Ohio State University will provide certain chemotherapy drugs at no charge to retired racing greyhounds. However you would still need to pay for the administration.

 

Typical chemotherapy for OS is 5 separate administrations of an IV chemotherapy agent given 2 weeks apart. After that it is often suggested to provide some herbal supplementation (such as artemisinin) and perhaps the oral cancer drug, Palladia.

 

You may be asking how do I know all this. No I am not a veterinarian or a vet tech. I live near the Ohio State University Veterinary Hospital. This hospital is home to Dr. Guillermo Couto, widely regarded as one of the best greyhound experts in the world. He is the section chair for oncology (cancer), hematology (blood), and greyhound medicine. He runs a greyhound clinic and supervises three veterinarians who are almost totally dedicated to greyhound medicine. He also has a staff of roughly 12 oncologists. I help people who choose to come to OSU from far away. A group of local greyhound owners can provide reservation assistance, moral support, or even have owners and their dogs as guests in their home. So I have sat in on a lot of osteo consults and been there with owners as they wait for the amputation surgery to be completed. Unfortunately, this past week, my own greyhound has had to undergo amputation due to osteo. He is still in the hospital.

 

Dr. Couto's team will provide free phone or email consultations. They may be able to take a look at your x-rays and tell if it is cancer, perhaps not with the severity of the break.

 

If you decide on amputation, I suggest that your vet contact OSU for information on the surgical and post-care protocol Dr. Couto has developed. This includes administration of Amicar for all Greyhound amputations. Greyhounds have a tendency to bleed significantly. Amicar increases the bonding strength of blood clots, significantly reducing post-op bruising and guarding against death from bleeding out. It also includes a cocktail of fentanyl, ketamine, and lidocaine post-op to help keep the greyhound relax. Greyhounds tend to get quite nervous in a hospital environment. Keeping them calm helps promote healing.

 

I am not sure, but I believe NGAP does not agree completely with Dr. Couto's protocols. It is possible that you may hear different strategies from them.

 

I am happy to help you in any way that I can. Please feel free to call me or email me at:

 

finewhipador-drool@yahoo.com

 

Jane

 

I will first answer your primary question and then give you more information.

 

Yes it is possible to have clear lung x-rays and an inconclusive (negative) aspiration and still have bone cancer. Usually bone cancer can be diagnosed with a good deal of certainty by viewing an x-ray. Most cancers have a very distinctive pattern. A fine needle aspirate can confirm that diagnosis or be inconclusive. Since a biopsy can weaken the bone leading to breakage, it is typically not done. In your case, I am guessing that the break is so severe it is impossible to detect any cancer-like pattern in the bone fragments.

 

You might think back to her behaviour over the last few weeks or month. Have you noticed her limping or favoring a leg? Have you noticed her panting more than usual (a sign of pain)? Has she been playing or running less than normal? While none of these are conclusive, it may give a hint. She certainly could have cancer in the absence of these signs. Likewise, there are other reasons she might limp, pant or play less.

 

Even if it is cancer, you may still want to do an amputation. See the survival statistics below.

 

Osteosarcoma is by far the most common bone cancer in greyhounds; about 1 in 4 greyhounds will get this type of cancer. It is very, very painful. It will weaken the bone so the bone is prone to breaking. This cancer will spread (metastasize) to other bones and the lungs if not treated. In more than 90 percent of the cases there are small mets (matastases) that are not visible on xray. This means that it will spread even when it is treated, but there is a longer survival time with a much better quality of life. There are a couple of bone cancers that do not metastasize. This means that if the affected bones are removed, the dog is essentially cured. Unfortunately, these are not as common as osteosarcoma.

 

Here are some statistics on typical survival times with various treatment options for OS (osteosarcoma) with no visible tumors in the lungs:

 

Amputation, then chemotherapy: 50-60 percent are still living at one year post-amputation. This period has the same or almost the same quality of life as before the cancer. Removal of the cancerous bone eliminates the horrible pain from bone cancer. 10-20 percent are still living at 2 years post amputation. I personally know of a few who have lived 3 years or more. One of my friends has a greyhound that is more than 3 years post amp and is still going strong. However, 40 to 50 percent do not make it to the 1 year point. Try to remember that to a greyhound, one year is 1/12th to 1/14th of their normal life. In other words, a year to us is really 7 years to a greyhound. This treatment is fairly expensive. At Ohio State University, the amputation is typically $3000 to $3500, inclusive of surgery, a 4 day hospital stay, and medications while in the hospital. Administration of the chemo at OSU is relatively inexpensive. The 5 treatments, inclusive of blood work and a lung xray usually totals about $500. I have heard quotes as high as $2500 from other parts of the country.

 

Amputation, but no chemotherapy -- I'm not sure on this one. I would guess 3 to 4 months. Removing the leg eliminates the pain from the bone cancer. However any lung mets that were too small to see on the x-ray would grow. Eventually this would impact her breathing and other functions. It is also possible that there are undetected mets in her other bones (spine, other leg, etc.). In this case, the pain would become uncontrollable.

 

No treatment, except for pain management -- 2 to 3 months after initial diagnosis. In your case, if she has bone cancer you would either need to amputate immediately or put her to sleep immediately.

 

Unlike in humans, chemotherapy in dogs is generally very well tolerated. Most greyhounds have few side affects. Typical side affects are some lethargy and queasiness for a day or two after the chemo treatment. This often doesn't start until midway through the course of treatment. Ohio State University will provide certain chemotherapy drugs at no charge to retired racing greyhounds. However you would still need to pay for the administration.

 

Typical chemotherapy for OS is 5 separate administrations of an IV chemotherapy agent given 2 weeks apart. After that it is often suggested to provide some herbal supplementation (such as artemisinin) and perhaps the oral cancer drug, Palladia.

 

You may be asking how do I know all this. No I am not a veterinarian or a vet tech. I live near the Ohio State University Veterinary Hospital. This hospital is home to Dr. Guillermo Couto, widely regarded as one of the best greyhound experts in the world. He is the section chair for oncology (cancer), hematology (blood), and greyhound medicine. He runs a greyhound clinic and supervises three veterinarians who are almost totally dedicated to greyhound medicine. He also has a staff of roughly 12 oncologists. I help people who choose to come to OSU from far away. A group of local greyhound owners can provide reservation assistance, moral support, or even have owners and their dogs as guests in their home. So I have sat in on a lot of osteo consults and been there with owners as they wait for the amputation surgery to be completed. Unfortunately, this past week, my own greyhound has had to undergo amputation due to osteo. He is still in the hospital.

 

Dr. Couto's team will provide free phone or email consultations. They may be able to take a look at your x-rays and tell if it is cancer, perhaps not with the severity of the break.

 

If you decide on amputation, I suggest that your vet contact OSU for information on the surgical and post-care protocol Dr. Couto has developed. This includes administration of Amicar for all Greyhound amputations. Greyhounds have a tendency to bleed significantly. Amicar increases the bonding strength of blood clots, significantly reducing post-op bruising and guarding against death from bleeding out. It also includes a cocktail of fentanyl, ketamine, and lidocaine post-op to help keep the greyhound relax. Greyhounds tend to get quite nervous in a hospital environment. Keeping them calm helps promote healing.

 

I am not sure, but I believe NGAP does not agree completely with Dr. Couto's protocols. It is possible that you may hear different strategies from them.

 

I am happy to help you in any way that I can. Please feel free to call me or email me at:

 

finewhipador-drool@yahoo.com

 

Jane

[Guest roselle]

Hi Jane, I'm Roselle and your reply to the question on amputation was so helpful to me. My Gracy was just diagnosed with bone cancer, very advanced. In x-ray the tumor on her tibia has moved into the soft tissue and her knee is quite large. I noticed that her foot was swollen and she limped occasionally, but did not complain. At the same time I noticed at night when I was watching T.V. she would wake up panting ( I was worried about her heart) I didn't know panting is associated with pain. Her chest is clear on x-ray but I know with a tumor as large as she has, she has to have mets. I'm considering amputation but we are leaving on a two week vacation in 4 days. I couldn't do the amputation for two weeks. My only other alternative would be to put her down before we leave and I'm not comfortable making this quickie descision . Do you have any advise?

Edited August 4, 2010 by roselle

[Bevd]

Sending lots of good wishes for Annie

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Jane, I'm Roselle and your reply to the question on amputation was so helpful to me. My Gracy was just diagnosed with bone cancer, very advanced. In x-ray the tumor on her tibia has moved into the soft tissue and her knee is quite large. I noticed that her foot was swollen and she limped occasionally, but did not complain. At the same time I noticed at night when I was watching T.V. she would wake up panting ( I was worried about her heart) I didn't know panting is associated with pain. Her chest is clear on x-ray but I know with a tumor as large as she has, she has to have mets. I'm considering amputation but we are leaving on a two week vacation in 4 days. I couldn't do the amputation for two weeks. My only other alternative would be to put her down before we leave and I'm not comfortable making this quickie descision . Do you have any advise?

I'm not Jane (obviously ) Firstly, I'm very sorry to hear about your Gracys diagnosis Who was going to be looking after Gracy during your vacation? I ask because being 100% honest, if you are going to amputate it really can't wait for two more weeks. I think your choices might be either to postpone you vacation or, well, I can't really think of another choice unless you are going to take the euthanasia route.