Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet

[Charlies_Dad]

I think this is an awesome idea and it's obvious you are considering your pups health above all else, then definitely go for it. Anyone who suggests what they buy off the shelf is better unfortunately is blind sided by the whole processed foods that North America is guilty of. Be it human or dog food.

[RobinM]

I voted first choice. What more can I say?

[Guest sirsmom]

I think a low meat diet might be ok--but a canine still needs a little to thrive

[Batmom]

Um ... wolves and dogs aren't even genetically the same. Related, yes. The same, no. ..... It's curious to me how few people ever do the kind of research Xan is doing relative to dietary needs, especially given the prevalence of osteosarcoma in the breed and the potential contribution of improper calcium:phosphorus balance.

[PatricksMom]

As a former vegan, how are you handling things like omega 3s? That was one of the reasons, I believe, that my vegan diet made me sick--the flax seed/flax seed oil just wasn't meeting my needs. Also, B12--are you finding a good vegan source, since the best source is from, well, you know what in meat? (not to gross out others) I believe I also ran into trouble in that my family absorbs the B complex particularly poorly from food, let alone supplements, so I would be leary of a diet that relies too heavily on supplements.

 

Based on my inability to find solid, academic studies demonstrating the general safety of feeding a dog a long term vegan diet, I opted not too. While I believe in minimizing animal cruelty, my first responsibility is to those I have chosen to bring into my life.

 

I do believe most Americans eat way too much protein, and thus probably have an inflated sense of how much protein our dogs need. But there are other issues beyond protein.

 

For the record, I voted that I think dogs (really I think most dogs) need meat, but Patrick probably averages 1 cup of raw vegetables or fruit per day, his choice, as treats.

[NevadasMom]

Interesting idea. I've toyed with the idea of going vegetarian for several years, because I'm just not liking meat much anymore & hate the thoughts of killing things. I'll be curious about how it all works out.

[NeylasMom]

Um ... wolves and dogs aren't even genetically the same. Related, yes. The same, no. ..... It's curious to me how few people ever do the kind of research Xan is doing relative to dietary needs, especially given the prevalence of osteosarcoma in the breed and the potential contribution of improper calcium:phosphorus balance.

Who said anything about wolves, or genetics?

[Guest Bang_o_rama]

Not a door slam, Xan, but until you can convince me that canines did not evolve (or were created 6000 or so years ago) to be carnivores or have suddenly become herbivores, no thanks. It seems at best pointless and at worst unhealthy for the dog. Unless you propose that carnivory is inherently immoral, in which case all sorts of animals are deluded or evil beasts. Including whales. And I am fond of marine mammals.

Dave (unethical omnivore)

[Batmom]

Oops, pardon me. Was it "wild relatives"? They don't eat just meat either. I seem to recall a study where wild canids in one location ate quite a few persimmons . But not kidding. The BARF/raw movement, including prey model, doesn't feed anything like the diet of a "wild relative." It probably shouldn't, but "wild relative" diet seems to be the rationale for feeding exclusively animals.

 

ETA: Apologies, Xan, that was waaaaaaay off topic. The point I wanted to make was that few people research what a dog's/cat's nutritional needs are. You seem to be doing that in a serious way.

[Guest caiteag]

As you know, Xan.. I am working towards a vegan diet for myself.. but I don't think I would try to transition the dogs. The issue of where their meat comes from DOES bother me, so I appreciate the point of view that has brought you to this choice (as well as raising meat rabbits). Choo Choo has had (non-protein based) food issues since she came home to us, and I don't know that her system could handle a vegan diet.

[winnie]

Interesting idea. I've toyed with the idea of going vegetarian for several years, because I'm just not liking meat much anymore & hate the thoughts of killing things. I'll be curious about how it all works out.

 

Ditto... I'm not a vegan, but I have gradually transitioned to becoming a vegetarian. I'm not likely to ever turn my dogs into vegans/vegetarians though. My reason for wanting to be a vegetarian have more to do with the fact that I simply don't like meat. Yeah, not a big fan of killing animals either, but I accept that it happens. I don't try to impose my diet choices on others. I don't have an issue with my DH or dogs/cats eating meat.

[Guest kydie]

I have the fortune of living near an organic farmer,, where I get chicken, eggs, and veggies, he saves me the chicken reminates, and gives them to me for the dogs,,, wings, and what is left after he removes legs and breast meat, he sells, I also buy chickens from him at a fraction of the cost of a grocery store,, I think the dogs would not like it much if I gave them MY veggies

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

BTW I would NEVER buy the HSUS food even if I was Vegan. I hate the HSUS with a passion, and their money grabbing, greedy, twisted view on pet ownership enrages me.

 

For the record, I don't think Xan seems preachy or forceful or self righteous at all

[Xan]

What a juicy discussion! Love it.

I'm going to respond in stages here, because people brought up lots of important points I want to respond to.

Ok, so I am curious. I have heard this done successfully for dogs, but I thought cats were obligate carnivores and couldn't be switched to a meat free diet?

 

I admit I don't know a ton about this topic. I did the research once because I had a cat that died of a taurine deficiency (due to a metabolic issue not a diet issue) and it's scary because I didn't know he was sick until it was too late

 

Oh, and for the poll - no interest in vegan dieting for me or any of the animals here. Not judging, just my choice.

Cats are what's known as obligate carnivores, yes. That said, the same is true for them: nutrition is available in other sources that will meet the needs of even obligate carnivores. Their diet is rather more particular, and I'm holding off on that 'til I can devote another learning curve to sorting that out.

 

And I see I forgot to respond to the "it's not natural" response....

Gah! I was just going to stay out of this one until you brought this up.

 

1. The fact that other people choose other non-natural diets isn't an argument for feeding a vegan diet.

 

2. Dogs are physiologically the same as their wild relatives. They haven't been eating processed foods long enough to have evolved significantly in that regard. The fact that in order for your vegan diet to be available to them you have to cook it (not natural) or process it to a pulp (not natural) or use supplements (not natural) is good evidence of that.

 

Having cleared those things up I don't care what you do and I won't be critical of you. I suppose I have an ethical issue with people feeding what I consider a grossly inappropriate diet to animals they've chosen to have as pets knowing their dietary needs, but I realize not everyone is going to agree with me (why they don't I'm still trying to figure out ). Not to mention that you've put more thought into your dogs' diet than hordes of pet owners ever will and you're doing this totally insane thing in the most sane, well thought out way possible.

Heya! We meet again over this topic, eh?

My DH said this morning that there's a "playing god" aspect to this, and I agree. Is that sort of your point? We ARE gods to our pets, in that we have such elemental control over every important aspect of their lives. What we choose to feed them, whatever that is, is what WE choose to feed them. Unless they're out hunting on their own, it won't be any other way. Okay, we've established we're gods. Some gods choose to feed their pets what comes in a bag (as I have all these years), with or without supplements (like fish oil, beet pulp, canned food, glucosamine, whatever), with or without a concern for what might be lurking in the food. I know I'm not alone here that I watch their poop, their weight, their coats, eyes, ears, teeth, noses, smell their paws, their breath, their very farts as I keep track of how what I feed them nourishes or does not nourish their total health. If something is off or plain wrong, I change, add, subtract, until I get it as right as I can for them. GT is FULL of discussions about this, about the nitty details of how the food we feed them works or doesn't work, and what we do about it. In other words, it's not their choice: we choose to feed them, and what we choose is not natural for them (again, with the possible exception of the raw-feeders). That's the Natural issue.

 

As for "grossly inappropriate diet", please, I totally understand what you're saying. I do however feel that commercial diets are a big compromise for everyone, which means everyone pays more than they want (in health, ecological terms, and pure dollars) and gets less than they want (nutrition, freshness, health, security, safety, ethical comfort ...). If I can prepare a diet at home that I can control much better, that is lower on the food chain with all that implies for the planet, that is fresh, that agrees with my pets (in that they like it), and that keeps them healthy (the bottom line), then that seems to me to be the appropriate diet.

 

Does that address your ethical concerns?

Here's a good article from *Whole Dog Journal* about this very subject.

 

Here's another one, this one more specifically addressing a vegeterian dog food currently being sold by the HSUS.

 

I'm sure Xan has probably already read these. I just thought I'd share the links for discussion and informational purposes.

The first article (which I just read, though the elements I've found elsewhere as well) is pretty good. It does discuss the controversy, though it pretty summarily dismisses the possibility of feeding cats a vegan diet.

 

wow, I was hoping that this would come up at some point.

 

Im a vegan, but only started a few months ago, so Ive been feeling very hesitant about feeding my animals this diet, but also very unhappy with the selection of dog food on the market.

 

There is a food available in Australia (where I am) called Vegan pet which claims to be a complete balanced food which comes in cat and dog varieties. I bought a small bag for Sophie and she really liked it. I dont think it was outrageously expensive when calculated agains a food like Artemis which I planned to start feeding Sophie when her current bag of food is finished.

 

As an ethical vegan I hate thinking about the ground up offal that I currently feed my pets. However I have been worried about the long term effects of removing all meat from Sophies diet (and the cats!). I guess Im afraid that I wont really see the long term results until it may be too late- if that makes sense.

 

I would definately been interested in your spreadsheet and chatting to you about how its going. I would desperately love for my pets to also have a cruelty free diet that is safe for them. Im not sure if you can PM me due to my lack of posts but will happily give you my email address its not too much trouble for you.

 

Thanks for posting about this!

I'll try emailing you through the system, if that works.

 

Your fear was mine as well, but the research I'm doing is putting that to rest pretty much. Research that shows that vegetarian, and especially vegan dogs (and especially those consuming NO soy products) can and do live long and healthier lives than their meat-eating brothers and sisters is encouraging. That is what I want for my pets, for sure!

 

Okay, what's next?

[Guest Tes623]

I like your artwork!

[Guest hblackburn]

OK, weighing in in support of Xan here. I travel a lot, and to a lot of places in the world where there are lots of "indigenous" dogs. They eat everything. They are as much predators as bald eagles are, also opportunistic feeders, or us for that matter. Which suggests that if we, opportunistic feeders, can be vegetarian, maybe dogs can also.

I am not vegan, though I live with a vegan (Xan). At home I eat vegetarian- no meat in the house, for health reasons. Xan's veganism doesn't threaten me in the least, and I am puzzled why it gets such heat here.

[NeylasMom]

OK, weighing in in support of Xan here. I travel a lot, and to a lot of places in the world where there are lots of "indigenous" dogs. They eat everything. They are as much predators as bald eagles are, also opportunistic feeders, or us for that matter. Which suggests that if we, opportunistic feeders, can be vegetarian, maybe dogs can also.

I am not vegan, though I live with a vegan (Xan). At home I eat vegetarian- no meat in the house, for health reasons. Xan's veganism doesn't threaten me in the least, and I am puzzled why it gets such heat here.

Welcome.

 

I don't think Xan's veganism is getting any heat, it's feeding a vegan diet to a dog, which is no doubt going to raise a lot of feathers. The 3 topics that should be avoided in polite conversation: religion, politics, & what you feed to your dog.

 

Xan, re: your response to my post, I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but again, I'm not holding what diet people feed to their dog against kibble or other processed dog foods. If I were, I already said that your choices here indicated much more research and effort than what most people who feed their dogs those diets do. But no, none of what you said addresses my ethical concern - I just don't agree with feeding an animal product free diet to an animal clearly designed to eat meat. My scale is based on what is ideal, not what is doable.

 

But like I said, that's just me. I'm not judging you, at all, really, I swear. The thing I dislike most about veganism in general is what Heather referred to as a fundamentalist attitude. I realize not all vegans are like that, but some are, and I really strive (probably not always successfully) to not appear the same way when sharing my opinions about food for both myself and my dog. Honestly, I wasn't going to chime in on this thread at all, just as I haven't on the vegan food thread in OT until I saw your poll, which I felt invited dissenting opinions, and then of course the "natural" argument.

 

I like your artwork!

Me too!

Edited July 30, 2010 by NeylasMom

[Xan]

Round 2 *ding*

 

I think it's ridiculous and pure human ego to thrust your own personal world views on animals that nature has made predators (if you are unwilling to accept that dogs are hunters and meat eaters, there's really no point in further discussion. You can't discuss this topic with someone who is unwilling to suspend reality and insert their own fantasy world). Dogs eat meat. Dogs in Mexico and India aren't pets like US dogs are pets. Most are free-roaming street dogs and pretty much expected to fend for themselves. I promise you, they DO hunt. The ones who don't, probably die.

 

I think using a supplement takes it out of the realm of cruelty. But otherwise, I think it is cruel to essentially make a dog your prisoner (take away their ability to supplement their diet with species appropriate foods - MEAT) and feed them a vegan diet. JMO.

 

Veganism doesn't seem to me to be "lifestyle choice"... apparently it's really no different than any other fundamentalist religion that believes its adherents are 1) superior to everyone else and 2) they should force their world views on other people and animals because of believed superiority.

 

And now that I've indulged *my* ego to respond. Enjoy your day and good luck to your dogs. You've inspired me to give our crew some big meaty raw bones to gnaw on today.

Let's talk about these issues! I'm as willing to "suspend reality and insert {my} own fantasy world" as the next fundamentalist, that's for sure! Okay, I know that's not what you meant. You meant the other thing, the opposite. I get it. It's the playing god thing again. I hope I talked about that enough up there. I do understand what you're saying.

 

The vegetarian pets in India are as much a commercial niche as the meat-eaters here in the states. Breeders and serious pet-owners choose this for their pets to be consistent with their own beliefs (hey, just like you and me!), and for health reasons (again, just like you and me!) A quick google of "India +vegetarian pets" will turn up quite a lot. They don't die, they live happy, healthy lives. Look it up. I'm not trying to lie to you or make something up so I feel better: it's truly out there to find.

 

Dogs and cats are our prisoners. It's another way to look at our relationship. We're their gods. Their friends. Their guardians. Their prison keepers. We keep them locked up in houses, yards, on leashes. We only let them eat what we want them to. We make them sleep where we want them to. Some of us even keep them off the kitchen counters if you can believe that! You could even go so far as to say that the only reason they like us at all is because of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

Or, you could say that we're symbiotes. We mutually give and receive the best we can for each other given the environment we are all in together. That's a lot nicer picture, but it's really a matter of perspective. I'm going for symbiosis, myself.

 

Oh, and did you miss my Card-Carrying Vegan thread? I do, after all, have a 4 out of 5 eggplant superiority rating!

 

I think it quite odd to essentially have as a goal that one will avoid harming ruminants and herbivores who are naturally designed to be the prey of meat eating predators by feeding a diet that does violence to a companion animal dog. Amino acids are all the same chemically, but bioavailability differs, making amino acids sourced from different things essentially the same but not equal. The argument that kibble and canned foods are unnatural is hardly a good argument for feeding an even more unnatural diet to a carnivore.

 

And yes, as everyone here well knows, I feed prey model raw. When I started researching it, I hadn't touched a piece of meat, raw or otherwise, for over a decade. I have vegetarian and vegan friends that feed raw as well and had a very hard time in the beginning. I was creeped out when I first started feeding raw, but it was apparent that it was the most appropriate diet I could feed and that they thrived on it. None of mine were in less then very good condition when I started raw, so I really was caught off guard to see such improvement where I didn't think there could be much improvement in condition and coat. My hounds are my responsibility, and if I couldn't bring myself to put their biological needs and best interest above my own personal choices, I would leave the having of companion dogs to someone else, and just have herbivores.

 

That said, I don't think a vegan diet will kill a dog. I do think it causes complications and issues down the road, especially in an older dog. Really, they can survive on almost anything. Survival just isn't what I would aim for as a goal.

I respect how seriously you take your dogs' health and well-being. I feel just as dedicated to making choices for their best health.

 

You seem to be saying that domestic herbivores were designed by nature to live in pens, eat commercially prepared foods full of chemicals, and to walk calmly into abattoirs to be naturally shot or thumped in the head to be parted out by machine-wielding humans for various uses. I know that's not what you meant, exactly. I just can't be reassured by this argument that it's alright to sacrifice my fellow creatures. I just can't do it, or be responsible for it.

 

I'm not sure how this is doing violence to my pets. It's not like I'm sticking them in a restraint, tilting their heads back and forcing vegetables down their throats. (That reminds me of something ... oh, right. Fois gras!) They LIKE it. They haven't even FARTED since I started this process, and oh, believe me, that's an improvement! So, you can relax about that, alright? It's really okay!

 

I do respect someone who takes immediate responsibility for a meat-eating lifestyle, with respect for the life taken. I think that takes guts and a kind of honor, but also a disconnect with the owner of the life taken.

 

As to your statement about the bioavailability of nutrients, this had me concerned as well. It seems that as long as the food is broken up so there's time for the short digestive tract to get at the stuff, and perhaps with the help of some enzymes, this is not the issue I was worried it might be.

 

I already have these pets, and have had them, and cared for them, for many years (my oldest cat is 14, for instance, and still running around taking pot shots at humans and dogs alike! ). I'm not going to do anything to them to hurt them. It's going to be okay. I sacrifice a lot for my pets, and they in turn sacrifice for me, though they don't know it. They sacrifice running freely (until they get hit by cars), and hunting for their own food ('til they get too worm-ridden or beat up), and they don't get to breed, either. Luckily, they seem pretty happy to eat out of a bowl, sleep on the couch, and have the occasional air-hump. The life of a pet is a compromise. That really can't be sustainably denied, can it?

 

Older pets can certainly benefit from a vegan diet. Meat is hard to digest, though high in the nutrients that dogs need. I wish I'd known this a couple years ago when it might have helped Happy, with her IBD, but I've been reading that one veterinary treatment for IBD is a vegetarian diet, based on plant proteins, and that it has had great success.

 

Um ... wolves and dogs aren't even genetically the same. Related, yes. The same, no. ..... It's curious to me how few people ever do the kind of research Xan is doing relative to dietary needs, especially given the prevalence of osteosarcoma in the breed and the potential contribution of improper calcium:phosphorus balance.

Yes! Cancer seems to be much reduced in vegetarian pets. That's a major point of interest.

 

As a former vegan, how are you handling things like omega 3s? That was one of the reasons, I believe, that my vegan diet made me sick--the flax seed/flax seed oil just wasn't meeting my needs. Also, B12--are you finding a good vegan source, since the best source is from, well, you know what in meat? (not to gross out others) I believe I also ran into trouble in that my family absorbs the B complex particularly poorly from food, let alone supplements, so I would be leary of a diet that relies too heavily on supplements.

 

Based on my inability to find solid, academic studies demonstrating the general safety of feeding a dog a long term vegan diet, I opted not too. While I believe in minimizing animal cruelty, my first responsibility is to those I have chosen to bring into my life.

 

I do believe most Americans eat way too much protein, and thus probably have an inflated sense of how much protein our dogs need. But there are other issues beyond protein.

 

For the record, I voted that I think dogs (really I think most dogs) need meat, but Patrick probably averages 1 cup of raw vegetables or fruit per day, his choice, as treats.

How did you figure out your omegas were off? I never even heard of them before a few years ago, and I've been eating flax ever since, but I can't say I've noticed much of a difference I could pin to that specifically. What did you notice? How did your vegetarian diet make you sick?

 

I know what you mean about absorbing supplements, especially vit.s. I'm trying to include food sources as much as possible, which seems to be the best way, rather than pills. I'm reassured in that the diet does seem to work for those that try it, and work remarkably well. Better than just "well"; the animals seem to thrive, live long, and live healthy.

 

As for hard science, there is research, but it can be hard to find. UC Davis has done some, surveys across the variety of private homes feeding vegetarian/vegan diets have been done, other sources are available, and it does all seem to support that dogs (particularly, but cats too) can thrive on a vegan diet. Not just survive: thrive.

 

Interesting idea. I've toyed with the idea of going vegetarian for several years, because I'm just not liking meat much anymore & hate the thoughts of killing things. I'll be curious about how it all works out.

 

Not a door slam, Xan, but until you can convince me that canines did not evolve (or were created 6000 or so years ago) to be carnivores or have suddenly become herbivores, no thanks. It seems at best pointless and at worst unhealthy for the dog. Unless you propose that carnivory is inherently immoral, in which case all sorts of animals are deluded or evil beasts. Including whales. And I am fond of marine mammals.

Dave (unethical omnivore)

I hear you, truly! I'm not even going to try to suggest they "have suddenly become herbivores". They aren't herbivores. They're omnivores, similar to us (though more adapted to a primarily meat diet than we are). You can look it up, and you'll find quite a bit about dogs (and wild canids) adapting to a huge variety of food sources. You can see where humans have adapted to a nearly purely meat-based diet, and of course a purely vegan diet. It's our adaptability that makes us so ... ubiquitous!

 

Being a carnivore, or a meat-eating omnivore, CAN be immoral, for humans. I don't believe most animals are perverted in that way, but I believe humans in our culture have become perverted in their relationship to prey animals. It's a huge discussion, apparently (it seems simple to me: compassion, respect).

 

Oops, pardon me. Was it "wild relatives"? They don't eat just meat either. I seem to recall a study where wild canids in one location ate quite a few persimmons . But not kidding. The BARF/raw movement, including prey model, doesn't feed anything like the diet of a "wild relative." It probably shouldn't, but "wild relative" diet seems to be the rationale for feeding exclusively animals.

 

ETA: Apologies, Xan, that was waaaaaaay off topic. The point I wanted to make was that few people research what a dog's/cat's nutritional needs are. You seem to be doing that in a serious way.

Thanks. I'm trying!

 

The point about dogs' wild relatives and what they eat is really ON topic, in that it demonstrates (if you actually do look into the wide sea of literature) that canids are omnivores, and adapt their diet to what's available. If they can eat meat, they will. If they can't, they'll work it out or go somewhere else, but it's amazing how adaptable they truly are.

 

As you know, Xan.. I am working towards a vegan diet for myself.. but I don't think I would try to transition the dogs. The issue of where their meat comes from DOES bother me, so I appreciate the point of view that has brought you to this choice (as well as raising meat rabbits). Choo Choo has had (non-protein based) food issues since she came home to us, and I don't know that her system could handle a vegan diet.

This may seem counterintuitive to you, but maybe what Choo Choo needs IS a vegan diet. It could be. Like I said, I wish I'd known some of what I've recently discovered when Happy was alive. It would have given us another chance to give her a longer more comfortable life.

 

As for transitioning yourself and your pets, it's an evolving thing. I started as a vegetarian, swore I couldn't live without dairy, then got more and more aware and unhappy knowing that the dairy industry IS the meat industry. It's been a good many years, and I'm just now getting to the point of researching for my pets' transition. I wish I'd come along faster, looking back, but it just takes whatever time and process it takes.

 

BTW I would NEVER buy the HSUS food even if I was Vegan. I hate the HSUS with a passion, and their money grabbing, greedy, twisted view on pet ownership enrages me.

 

For the record, I don't think Xan seems preachy or forceful or self righteous at all

Thanks!

The HSUS food isn't vegan, anyway. The Vit. D they use is animal-based, so using it is not on the table.

[Xan]

I like your artwork!

Thanks!

 

OK, weighing in in support of Xan here. I travel a lot, and to a lot of places in the world where there are lots of "indigenous" dogs. They eat everything. They are as much predators as bald eagles are, also opportunistic feeders, or us for that matter. Which suggests that if we, opportunistic feeders, can be vegetarian, maybe dogs can also.

I am not vegan, though I live with a vegan (Xan). At home I eat vegetarian- no meat in the house, for health reasons. Xan's veganism doesn't threaten me in the least, and I am puzzled why it gets such heat here.

Hi Honey!

 

OK, weighing in in support of Xan here. ...

Welcome.

 

I don't think Xan's veganism is getting any heat, it's feeding a vegan diet to a dog, which is no doubt going to raise a lot of feathers. The 3 topics that should be avoided in polite conversation: religion, politics, & what you feed to your dog.

 

Xan, re: your response to my post, I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but again, I'm not holding what diet people feed to their dog against kibble or other processed dog foods. If I were, I already said that your choices here indicated much more research and effort than what most people who feed their dogs those diets do. But no, none of what you said addresses my ethical concern - I just don't agree with feeding an animal product free diet to an animal clearly designed to eat meat. My scale is based on what is ideal, not what is doable.

 

But like I said, that's just me. I'm not judging you, at all, really, I swear. The thing I dislike most about veganism in general is what Heather referred to as a fundamentalist attitude. I realize not all vegans are like that, but some are, and I really strive (probably not always successfully) to not appear the same way when sharing my opinions about food for both myself and my dog. Honestly, I wasn't going to chime in on this thread at all, just as I haven't on the vegan food thread in OT until I saw your poll, which I felt invited dissenting opinions, and then of course the "natural" argument.

 

I like your artwork!

Me too!

That's why I put the poll there! I like discussion. It can be a learning tool. Or at least a way of broadening one's perspective, which is like a catalyst that may act later.

 

You and I totally agree on the ethical scale: "My scale is based on what is ideal, not what is doable." Your ideal seems to be to feed the meat diet you feel your dogs evolved to eat. My ideal is to feed them a diet they will thrive on, which I hope to remove animal products from entirely. We're really not so far apart in our bottom line of wanting the best health for our pets. I'm just choosing to include the welfare of lots of other animals (including us humans) in the equation. It does complicate things for me, but I'm already such a complicate person!

[Guest scfilby]

Round 2 *ding*

 

Dogs and cats are our prisoners. It's another way to look at our relationship. We're their gods. Their friends. Their guardians. Their prison keepers. We keep them locked up in houses, yards, on leashes. We only let them eat what we want them to. We make them sleep where we want them to. Some of us even keep them off the kitchen counters if you can believe that! You could even go so far as to say that the only reason they like us at all is because of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

 

Sorry to be off topic, but this statement makes me feel horrible about having pets.. I suppose I can tell myself that at least I love them and make sure their needs are taken care of, even if I impose my wants over theirs..

Edited July 30, 2010 by scfilby

[NeylasMom]

Round 2 *ding*

 

It was a doozy.

 

That's why I put the poll there! I like discussion. It can be a learning tool. Or at least a way of broadening one's perspective, which is like a catalyst that may act later.

Me too.

 

You and I totally agree on the ethical scale: "My scale is based on what is ideal, not what is doable." Your ideal seems to be to feed the meat diet you feel your dogs evolved to eat. My ideal is to feed them a diet they will thrive on, which I hope to remove animal products from entirely. We're really not so far apart in our bottom line of wanting the best health for our pets. I'm just choosing to include the welfare of lots of other animals (including us humans) in the equation. It does complicate things for me, but I'm already such a complicate person!

Absolutely. Very well put. I might take issue with the bolded statement as it implies that my choices do NOT take the welfare of other animals into account and I would disagree with that statement, but I am certain our definitions of how one does that are quite different.

[Guest BlackandBrindle]

Totally unscientific experiment I performed this morning.

 

Sadie loves salad, she is a lettuce FIEND. So I offered at the same time a piece of lettuce and a smaller piece of roast beef. She ate the roast beef without hesitation first. Then she ate the lettuce.

 

I don't agree with feeding a dog a vegan diet. I have a dog who does not respond well to grains, carbohydrates, fruits, or veggies, but does fantastically on a raw diet. Since being in school they have been put on a mainly kibble diet but still get a raw dinner a few times a week. (I'm in school not the dogs )...

 

I think every person has the right to decide what to eat, whether for health reasons, ethical reasons, or both. I don't think it's wise to push our ethical choices on dogs though. Dogs don't live by the morality that we do and naturally eat meat. Yes, they'll eat other foods but it's not optimal.

 

While I have toyed with the idea of being a vegetarian, I would not force that choice on my dog.

[MerlinsMum]

I think it's ridiculous and pure human ego to thrust your own personal world views on animals that nature has made predators (if you are unwilling to accept that dogs are hunters and meat eaters, there's really no point in further discussion. You can't discuss this topic with someone who is unwilling to suspend reality and insert their own fantasy world). Dogs eat meat. Dogs in Mexico and India aren't pets like US dogs are pets. Most are free-roaming street dogs and pretty much expected to fend for themselves. I promise you, they DO hunt. The ones who don't, probably die.

 

I think using a supplement takes it out of the realm of cruelty. But otherwise, I think it is cruel to essentially make a dog your prisoner (take away their ability to supplement their diet with species appropriate foods - MEAT) and feed them a vegan diet. JMO.

 

Veganism doesn't seem to me to be "lifestyle choice"... apparently it's really no different than any other fundamentalist religion that believes its adherents are 1) superior to everyone else and 2) they should force their world views on other people and animals because of believed superiority.

 

And now that I've indulged *my* ego to respond. Enjoy your day and good luck to your dogs. You've inspired me to give our crew some big meaty raw bones to gnaw on today.

 

Wow. Such vitriol. As for veganism being a "lifestyle choice". I don't know any vegan who calls it, or would ever call it, a lifestyle choice. It's not about choice. It's an outlook on life, an ethical perspective based on the rejection of unnecessary violence. It is, to quote Gary Francione, an assertion that we reject the notion that animals are things and that we regard sentient nonhumans as moral persons with the fundamental moral right not to be treated as the property or resources of humans.

 

Additionally, as Xan eloquently put it, animal companions (I won't use the word "pet") ARE our prisoners, in every sense of the word. We control their lives absolutely; and the lucky ones are the animals who are loved and taken care of, but the law regards them as mere property, as commodities, a fact which is at the very root of their exploitation.

 

You seem to be saying that domestic herbivores were designed by nature to live in pens, eat commercially prepared foods full of chemicals, and to walk calmly into abattoirs to be naturally shot or thumped in the head to be parted out by machine-wielding humans for various uses. I know that's not what you meant, exactly. I just can't be reassured by this argument that it's alright to sacrifice my fellow creatures. I just can't do it, or be responsible for it.

 

YES!! Well said.

 

Um ... wolves and dogs aren't even genetically the same. Related, yes. The same, no. ..... It's curious to me how few people ever do the kind of research Xan is doing relative to dietary needs, especially given the prevalence of osteosarcoma in the breed and the potential contribution of improper calcium:phosphorus balance.

Yes! Cancer seems to be much reduced in vegetarian pets. That's a major point of interest.

 

Many of the dogs I've known who have been fed a vegan diet also lived longer than average.

 

The point about dogs' wild relatives and what they eat is really ON topic, in that it demonstrates (if you actually do look into the wide sea of literature) that canids are omnivores, and adapt their diet to what's available. If they can eat meat, they will. If they can't, they'll work it out or go somewhere else, but it's amazing how adaptable they truly are.

 

This, sadly, is a point that cannot be emphasized enough. Dogs are not like cats, who are obligate carnivores. My vet is fully supportive of my efforts to transition my dogs to a vegan diet as long as I feed a balanced diet. The thing is, people tend to equate "balanced" with "meat-based", but this is a false equation - one that is based on a misunderstanding of the basic principles of nutrition.

 

Xan, I have nothing but admiration for your efforts to feed your animal companions a home-cooked diet. I have only tried kibble brands so far, as I am always rushing and never have time to do a thing, but since your efforts seem to have been so successful thus far, I'm inclined to ask, nay beg for details of the meal chart you came up with! I will give anything a go, and I'll just have to set aside more time, then that's what I'll do. The inconvenience that may cause to me is not comparable to the suffering endured by the 10 billion animals we slaughter for food (and that's just land animals) every year in the United States alone.

 

My dogs LOVE their veggies and their fruit. They whine if they don't get them with their meals. I add all sorts of stuff to their food.

 

Xan - this is a podcast Prof. Francione created a while ago on non-vegan cats. When I get home I'll dig out an old podcast by the VeganFreak folks during which they talked about how they transitioned their companions - I seem to recall that one of their cats is not vegan because he is prone to UTIs as it is and a vegan diet in male cats in that condition is not advisable.

[Guest kydie]

I'm still working on being the dog's God and holding them captive let alone HSUS I though this was on feeding vegan diet thread I never that I was holding them CAPTIVE, I thought it was the other way around,,,,let's see,, "Mom get up,,, I don't care if it's 2a.m. I want to go see who is in the backyard",,,, "No I don't want that to eat,,,put cheese on it"...."who says this is your side of the bed",,, "Gee I'm sorry I got sick and had to go to the vet,,, and now you can't go on vacation, cause you spent all you saved for vacation at the vet this week and I'm NOT taking those pills the vet gave you even if they cost $120.00""......."sorry I threw up on the new rug",,,,, "You really didn't want to watch T.V.,,, did you?,, I need to go out now" "What food?, on what plate?, where?" YES, yes,, I see the new bed,, but I want the old ragged one back, I don't care if it left stuffing all over the floor" "I don't care if you have to go to work,, I'm not getting up to go out to pee, right now,,,, call me later" "Mom ,,,do you remember those new flowers you planted ,,, well I moved them,,, to middle of the yard" "Dad are you drinking beer,,, I'll have one too" WHO HOLDS WHO CAPTIVE?

Edited July 30, 2010 by kydie

[Guest Bang_o_rama]

My DH said this morning that there's a "playing god" aspect to this, and I agree. Is that sort of your point? We ARE gods to our pets, in that we have such elemental control over every important aspect of their lives. What we choose to feed them, whatever that is, is what WE choose to feed them. Unless they're out hunting on their own, it won't be any other way. Okay, we've established we're gods.

 

Power brings with it a responsibility to use it wisely, which often means NOT using it just because we can and feel like it.

 

 

That's the Natural issue.

 

No, despite my deification, there is a definite difference between me immersing my pet goldfish in a large tank of water for several weeks and immersing my dog in one. One is "naturally" aquatic. the other fears lawn sprinklers. As a responsible God I try not to ignore the physiology of my worshippers.

 

Okay, what's next?

 

Only my sincere hope that this experiment turns out well for the pupper. Gods and doctors bury their mistakes

 

~D~